Lab Gruppen FP14000 gets spanked...by plate amp? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

SP1-4000: 4000W into 2 ohms for 6.0 seconds.
FP14000: 1500W into 4 ohms for 0.5 seconds.

Review of SP1-4k: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/187472-speakerpower-torpedo-sp1-4000-plate-amp-review.html

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post #2 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 03:08 PM
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i bet the clones are even worse smile.gif
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post #3 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 03:15 PM
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I want to know what the SP1-6000 long term power is at 4ohms.
Those look nice, but the data looks cherry picked. They need to provide information at 2, 4, and 8 ohms for each model.
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post #4 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 05:33 PM
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This. Should be good. Popcorn anyone ? biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 07:55 PM
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Man I've been eyeballing them over the rack mounted amps just because of the price difference.

Biggie for me is what happens below 12hz.
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post #6 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 08:13 PM
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fp14k was 1500w at 2, 4, and 8ohm? When's the last time you've seen an amp behave that way?

Also, single channel? Bridged?
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post #7 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 08:24 PM
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From the comments from testing the qsc tells me that the fp more then likely did not have enough ac power to put out more. Maybe there is a 1500watt limit when not enough a/c power is available.



"CUTS BACK, BUT NEVERTHERMALS OFF. 2 &4 OHMPOWER WOULD HAVE BEENHIGHER BUT AC SERVICEWAS LOW B/C HOT DAY"
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post #8 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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"fp14k was 1500w at 2, 4, and 8ohm? When's the last time you've seen an amp behave that way?"

that was the medium term power test. the short term power test has the results that will be more familiar, as power goes up as resistance goes down. the problem he obviously ran into is that the 4800 watts into 2 ohm run only held up for...0.08 seconds. that is only 4 cycles of the 50hz test signal, so at that power, there is no "medium term".

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post #9 of 28 Old 05-04-2013, 10:53 PM
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More info can be found in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449918/new-speakerpower-rack-mounted-subwoofer-amps

These look really promising and Brian used to design for QSC, I believe.
I would just like more info and measurement confirmed by a third party.
I'm skeptical by nature, but that's just me. tongue.gif
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post #10 of 28 Old 05-05-2013, 04:18 PM
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I like how he couldn't measure the iTech because it exceeded his rig. LOL

"COULD NOT TEST 2OHMS, DRAWS TOO MUCHPOWER!"
How about in dual 1-ohm like I do? biggrin.gif
Note: I just reconfigured mine to run at 240v with a dual 20amp breaker (one for each hot wire).

"2 FANS EACH DRAWS 100W! A REAL SCREAMER"
Yes, I've said this at least once before.

Cherry picked to some degree perhaps. Still good results, but I want to see an independent test done by Crown or Gruppen. wink.gif
How many seconds is long-term? We need enough power to get through a 5 minute song.
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post #11 of 28 Old 05-05-2013, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

SP1-4000: 4000W into 2 ohms for 6.0 seconds.
FP14000: 1500W into 4 ohms for 0.5 seconds.

Review of SP1-4k: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/187472-speakerpower-torpedo-sp1-4000-plate-amp-review.html

FP10000Q Clone was tested 3 years ago and produced 2000W/ch, 2 channels driven @ 40 Hz into 4 ohms continuous (per the tester: "Continuous" means 5 seconds or greater )

Something's rotten in Denmark. cool.gif
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post #12 of 28 Old 05-05-2013, 07:45 PM
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Jeff from JTR, I think, has a real FP7k, and since he uses the Speakerpower amps as well, maybe he can chime in?

I don't think there's any doubt that the Speakerpower amps are the real deal, but the tests on the itech, lab, and pl380 don't look right at all.
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post #13 of 28 Old 05-07-2013, 03:12 PM
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My clone puts out much more power than that.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #14 of 28 Old 05-08-2013, 08:05 PM
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post #15 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 08:22 AM
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lol, 4ohm STEREO can burst over 8kw...that's a far cry from 1,500w...
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post #16 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

lol, 4ohm STEREO can burst over 8kw...that's a far cry from 1,500w...

I believe they were testing 500ms (1/2 second) on 500ms off.
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post #17 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I like how he couldn't measure the iTech because it exceeded his rig. LOL

"COULD NOT TEST 2OHMS, DRAWS TOO MUCHPOWER!"
How about in dual 1-ohm like I do? biggrin.gif
Note: I just reconfigured mine to run at 240v with a dual 20amp breaker (one for each hot wire).

"2 FANS EACH DRAWS 100W! A REAL SCREAMER"
Yes, I've said this at least once before.

Cherry picked to some degree perhaps. Still good results, but I want to see an independent test done by Crown or Gruppen. wink.gif
How many seconds is long-term? We need enough power to get through a 5 minute song.

In the details at the top, a 50A 120/208V line was listed. I believe most of the amps were run at 120V. The SP1-3200 & SP1-6000 were definitely run at 208V, as they need >180-200V to reach the maximum power indicated. You can see that the 3200 & 6000 models converge to match the long term power of the 2400 & 4000 as they are similar designs with different power supplies. Of course in listening no one uses maximum continuous power for 60sec unless the signal is hard clipped the entire time.
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Jeff from JTR, I think, has a real FP7k, and since he uses the Speakerpower amps as well, maybe he can chime in?
Jeff had confirmed to me that the SP1-4k was clearly louder/stronger than one channel of the FP7k as a sub amp.

For the record, Brian from SpeakerPower is an engineer, and a rather poor marketer. The tests posted represent what he feels is the important metrics for a subwoofer amplifier, especially class D type designs where duration of power delivery varies greatly. We saw the efficiency come into play at Gorilla's sub meet where his 5kW Crown popped the breaker while the 3 SubMersive HPs plugged in up front did not.

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post #18 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

http://www.speakerpower.net/comparative-performance.html

SP1-4000: 4000W into 2 ohms for 6.0 seconds.
FP14000: 1500W into 4 ohms for 0.5 seconds.

Review of SP1-4k: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/187472-speakerpower-torpedo-sp1-4000-plate-amp-review.html

FP10000Q Clone was tested 3 years ago and produced 2000W/ch, 2 channels driven @ 40 Hz into 4 ohms continuous (per the tester: "Continuous" means 5 seconds or greater )

Something's rotten in Denmark. cool.gif

More likely that the properly working protection circuits limit the duration, where the Clones don't, thus allowing more sustained power at 4 Ohms and possible death at 2 Ohms. I know they copied the internal layout pretty exactly. Is the circuit design of the amplifiers similar (with exception of the limiting/protection circuits)?

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post #19 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 10:18 AM
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ha
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post #20 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

More likely that the properly working protection circuits limit the duration, where the Clones don't, thus allowing more sustained power at 4 Ohms and possible death at 2 Ohms. I know they copied the internal layout pretty exactly. Is the circuit design of the amplifiers similar (with exception of the limiting/protection circuits)?

Of course the circuit design and layout is very similar in the 1/2 dozen or so Asian Class D amps I've messed with. Protection circuits are irrelevant with flat response to 2 Hz running stereo into 2 ohms playing WOTW at 0dBRL. Have you tried it with your SM amp?

Most likely the problem is in stereo operation with a 2 ohm load, which I wouldn't recommend for L/T'd HT subwoofer systems with any amplifier. Problems such as pumping can occur using a single side X2 that are eliminated by bridging, for one example. This is one reason I've never experienced problems running bridged 4 ohm vs stereo 2 ohm with the various iterations of Class D or so-called TD amps from Asia.

Most importantly, when the average driver is handed the keys to a NASCAR vehicle with no prior instruction, a crash is most likely to occur.

Who cares what a single channel does vs a monoblock? Why not run the 2 Ch amp as a monoblock as well if there's a comparison being made for SW duty?

The amp looks interesting, but there's no chance it hangs with the FP14000 bridged, cloned in any of its variations or actual LG.
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post #21 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 10:50 AM
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Which clone have you had the most success with, Bosso? I'm intrigued by the performance, but scared off by the QC issues I've read about. I don't have enough disposable income to risk on something that may or may not work. You can PM me if you prefer.
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post #22 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

More likely that the properly working protection circuits limit the duration, where the Clones don't, thus allowing more sustained power at 4 Ohms and possible death at 2 Ohms. I know they copied the internal layout pretty exactly. Is the circuit design of the amplifiers similar (with exception of the limiting/protection circuits)?

Of course the circuit design and layout is very similar in the 1/2 dozen or so Asian Class D amps I've messed with.

My question was how close the circuitry of these clones are to the actual LabGruppens beyond the cosmetic likeness. My understanding was they are rather close and was simply asking if anyone could confirm.
Quote:
Protection circuits are irrelevant with flat response to 2 Hz running stereo into 2 ohms playing WOTW at 0dBRL. Have you tried it with your SM amp?
Yes protection is irrelevant if you always stay within the amps limits. Real program material into a real driver impedance is very different than a dummy load bench test.
Quote:
Most likely the problem is in stereo operation with a 2 ohm load, which I wouldn't recommend for L/T'd HT subwoofer systems with any amplifier. Problems such as pumping can occur using a single side X2 that are eliminated by bridging, for one example. This is one reason I've never experienced problems running bridged 4 ohm vs stereo 2 ohm with the various iterations of Class D or so-called TD amps from Asia.
Sounds like a design quirk/flaw important to know about with a work around. Hopefully most know that.
Quote:
Most importantly, when the average driver is handed the keys to a NASCAR vehicle with no prior instruction, a crash is most likely to occur.

Who cares what a single channel does vs a monoblock? Why not run the 2 Ch amp as a monoblock as well if there's a comparison being made for SW duty?

Brian's comparisons make a lot of sense in the pro world where most of his amps are sold and used. Most companies would have the amps running 1-4 subs per channel, where the comparison for internal power is one plate amp per 1-2 boxes. SpeakerPower does offer a 2RU version with 2 amplifier channels (not bridgeable) for more direct comparison.
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The amp looks interesting, but there's no chance it hangs with the FP14000 bridged, cloned in any of its variations or actual LG.
Depending on the load, a pair of 4kW or more appropriately a pair of the 6kW amps powered at 220V should make a very good comparison, of course these 2 SpeakerPower amps are optimized for 2 Ohm operation and should be considered in that light.

Unlike the clone amps, the SpeakerPower amps can be purchased directly from the english speaking designer and manufacturer, with the amplifiers being manufactured here in the US all the way back to the circuit boards. Any failures that might be encountered are resolved by shipping of an 8-20 lb amplifier back to southern CA. Some will find value in that, others won't.

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post #23 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post


Unlike the clone amps, the SpeakerPower amps can be purchased directly from the english speaking designer and manufacturer, with the amplifiers being manufactured here in the US all the way back to the circuit boards. Any failures that might be encountered are resolved by shipping of an 8-20 lb amplifier back to southern CA. Some will find value in that, others won't.

Or in some of our cases, drop it off personally! tongue.gif
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Which clone have you had the most success with, Bosso? I'm intrigued by the performance, but scared off by the QC issues I've read about. I don't have enough disposable income to risk on something that may or may not work. You can PM me if you prefer.
I'm curious to know as well. PM me if you get an answer. biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 01:06 PM
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I would just caution if you cant afford to play then leave the clone alone. Find another option thats more stable with less power and be at peace.. cool.gif
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post #25 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

My question was how close the circuitry of these clones are to the actual LabGruppens beyond the cosmetic likeness. My understanding was they are rather close and was simply asking if anyone could confirm.

I dislike wading through threads with hundreds of pages myself, but this has been discussed in the clone thread. Judge for yourself. You can see the similarity in layout, but no way are the boards interchangeable:



I have "clones" that are much more substantially different in circuitry, but they are laid out the same as most any amp (transformer, rectifier, cap reservoir, amp boards, output devices and I/O), they just have a SMPS, some have PFC, some don't, they have varying amounts of cap reservoir, all sorts of 'protection circuitry', etc.

Quote:
Yes protection is irrelevant if you always stay within the amps limits. Real program material into a real driver impedance is very different than a dummy load bench test.

We've always agreed on this point, but some people have the wrong way around.
Quote:
Sounds like a design quirk/flaw important to know about with a work around. Hopefully most know that.

It is not a design flaw. For pro sounders, it's not relevant, so it never comes up.
Quote:
Brian's comparisons make a lot of sense in the pro world where most of his amps are sold and used. Most companies would have the amps running 1-4 subs per channel, where the comparison for internal power is one plate amp per 1-2 boxes. SpeakerPower does offer a 2RU version with 2 amplifier channels (not bridgeable) for more direct comparison.
Depending on the load, a pair of 4kW or more appropriately a pair of the 6kW amps powered at 220V should make a very good comparison, of course these 2 SpeakerPower amps are optimized for 2 Ohm operation and should be considered in that light.

Unlike the clone amps, the SpeakerPower amps can be purchased directly from the english speaking designer and manufacturer, with the amplifiers being manufactured here in the US all the way back to the circuit boards. Any failures that might be encountered are resolved by shipping of an 8-20 lb amplifier back to southern CA. Some will find value in that, others won't.

Value is more likely to be found in 4xFP14000 clones vs 2-SP1-6000 at the same price. IMO, failures come mostly from user-error, as with most any product of any kind.
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post #26 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 02:02 PM
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To those who have asked in threads and/or pinged me about what supplier for what amp, I'm not going to recommend any product or source from Asia or otherwise. Learned my lesson with amps and other products over the years. Sorry.smile.gif
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post #27 of 28 Old 05-09-2013, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

To those who have asked in threads and/or pinged me about what supplier for what amp, I'm not going to recommend any product or source from Asia or otherwise. Learned my lesson with amps and other products over the years. Sorry.smile.gif

It would be interesting if people took a chance on some of the other clone amps and reported their findings. The CVR PS4180 seems to be similar as well, but they're super shady as a company. I'm sure the speakerpower amps are great, but the pricing is 3x as high.
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post #28 of 28 Old 05-11-2013, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
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saw this in another thread. apparently, he too observed that the lg's drop power after a few ms with sine waves. big difference between the burst ratings and the sustained reports, it seems.

http://forum.behringer.com/showthread.php?654-iNUKE-NU-6000DSP-power-load-test

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