7 SEOS12's, 7 Cel 15's, 6 Dayton UM's, Build Thread - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 510 Old 06-07-2014, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Speaker #6 & #7 are done!



This is not their final resting position, just taken for quick photo.


The LCR's aren't totally finished yet, I have to revisit them. So that's up next...
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post #482 of 510 Old 06-18-2014, 02:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I tried How To Train Your Dragon for the first time today.

The movie goes to 0.9 and 1.6hz?

The 6.5hz... my system can just barely reach that one because of my amplifiers.

First attempt got 104db @ 24hz max-peak.

and according to my UMC Mic-1 peak was 22hz:



Then I turned the LFE up another 3db.
Second attempt got 111db @ 28hz:

Didn't create a waterfall of that one.

Here is the raw LFE channel:



Got it crossed over at 80hz at the moment because I'm in the middle of experimenting with new sub positionings.
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post #483 of 510 Old 02-09-2015, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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When I get my tax return (assuming I don't owe anything), I was thinking of buying the last bit of DSP and XLR cables I need to get one step closer to completing my speaker-goal:


My speaker-goal was to have enough DSP for 3-way active LCR's,
which takes up 9 of the 18 channels of the DCX's,
the other 9 channels are for tri-channel subwoofers.

3 boxes with 9 inputs, of which I'll be using 8. So I need 1 XLR Y cable for the LFE, and another for the stereo signals.


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post #484 of 510 Old 02-09-2015, 11:47 AM
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I feel ya, man. It's a ton of wiring and a lot of amplifier channels. Makes my head hurt (seriously) when I have to hook them up or make a change.

This will be your third DCX, right?

If so .... welcome to the club. The Three DCX Owners Club.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz ***FOR SALE***

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post #485 of 510 Old 02-09-2015, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I feel ya, man. It's a ton of wiring and a lot of amplifier channels. Makes my head hurt (seriously) when I have to hook them up or make a change.

This will be your third DCX, right?

If so .... welcome to the club. The Three DCX Owners Club.
Yep 3rd.


So that's 30 XLR cables and 2 XLR Y splitters, and 6 RCA cables.

If I want to stereo sum the center, then I'll need a 3rd Y splitter for the Left matrix.


If and when I upgrade to an XMC-1 or RMC-1, I'll be able to get rid of the cleanboxes and RCA cables altogether, which will make things a bit simpler and more compact and changeable via remote control.
I'm not 100% sure if a XMC-1 is good enough to replace a 105 DAC and XSP-1 for music. I could always keep all 3 if not, the wiring is easy.
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post #486 of 510 Old 05-12-2015, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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While you guys were stuffed in an office all day listening to your boss screaming at you about how poor of a job you are doing... I was here getting a suntan and farting around with H2O.


With more money now rolling in, I suppose it is time for me to stop farting around and continue upgrading the theater... (I mean I sort of have been already with the HTPC upgrades), but I mean... the features and/or acoustical-side of it!
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post #487 of 510 Old 05-12-2015, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Order placed.
One step closer to done...

This will allow me to discretely adjust the timing on my horn subs, and allow a fully-active 3-way center channel, and a few other things...


Now I just need another 40,000watts to make this all work properly...
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post #488 of 510 Old 05-19-2015, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Shipment arrives tomorrow.


All your XO's are belong to me.
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post #489 of 510 Old 05-20-2015, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Time to boom like never before...
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post #490 of 510 Old 05-20-2015, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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The rack mount is crooked. It does not sit flush.
and redesign: no port in the front, I don't use it but my OCD is disgusted.
They also changed colors of the LED's. Oh the Pain!


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post #491 of 510 Old 05-21-2015, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I got the stuff hooked up.
Had to completely rewire the inputs and outputs and manually transfer various DSP settings. Took forever (still not done, but enough to make it work.)

There is a 0.34ms difference between the first 2 DCX I bought. It is noticable on tweeters when driven from different boxes for maximizing stereo separation.
Now that I have fixed that the stereo imaging is sounding better than ever.
I kinda speculated that the DCX's might have bad crosstalk and this proves it to me now that the Left can't joint the Right and vice versa.

It is taking my ears a while to adjust, I find myself listening to all my discs again.

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post #492 of 510 Old 05-21-2015, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I have two more XLR cables to hook up and then my amps will be fully connected.

Almost using all 18 XLR outputs and 9 inputs. (My brain hurts in my head movies!)

I have 1 free for a another sub (don't even think about it!)
The other is for my center channel when I get more power.
1 of the 9 inputs isn't connected, it's not needed unless summing the center in music-mode.
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post #493 of 510 Old 05-29-2015, 12:00 AM
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Wow! Just jumping into this thread and it's incredible.

Couple of questions as I've now finished all 17 pages

1) Regarding sub 80hz content in the center channel, what is the advantage vs simply crossing the center at 80hz and letting your ridiculous sub system handle the LFE plus the sub 80hz from the center?
2) How would you rate the SEOS vs the 803's at more moderate listening levels, say 90-95db, now that you've had a lot of time with them (for both music and HT, specifically dialog)?
3) From reading the posts I see that you're a self made man, what field of work are you in that affords you the opportunity to indulge your audio hobby ?

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post #494 of 510 Old 05-29-2015, 06:05 AM
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I am a big fan of this setup. Just getting into active crossovers and compression drivers myself. One thing however:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Here's some compression sweeps.


I stopped at 110db, it probably could have done another 5db but I didn't want to risk it.


Boomin
"I stopped at 110db, (...) didn't want to risk it".
Got measurements from higher up? I think you should start a sweep higher up and measure the wattage your mids and compression horns get. Compression horns and mids that go between compression horns and subwoofers, have a tendency to be very loud at low power levels. So you could conceivably give them more juice.
Have my own build thread where I'm putting together a pair of 2-way speakers using extremely sensitive midbass and compression driver, still haven't published any watt/db measurements because I am still not sure I'm not making a mistake in my measurements. Its just so stupid loud that reading a couple volts seem wrong. I have heard 140db+ bass measured with termlab and 120db from a compression horn is just in another league. I have to stick fingers in ears and do the sweeps with REW countdown and leave the room

Also, do you have response data on the front speakers before EQ, without smoothing?
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post #495 of 510 Old 05-29-2015, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
1) Regarding sub 80hz content in the center channel, what is the advantage vs simply crossing the center at 80hz and letting your ridiculous sub system handle the LFE plus the sub 80hz from the center?
It doesn't stress the subs as much and prevents / eliminates digital clipping.
It also anchors deep voiced males to center screen a bit better, and various other center-bass center-screen anchoring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
2) How would you rate the SEOS vs the 803's at more moderate listening levels, say 90-95db, now that you've had a lot of time with them (for both music and HT, specifically dialog)?
They are nearly indistinguishable while watching movies at lower volumes. I've never sat up and noticed a difference.

It is at full THX Reference volumes or complex dynamic/impactfull bass that sets it apart. The beefier center remaining always-composed vs overloaded with bass. SEOS's is better for horror movies (more scare factor!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
3) From reading the posts I see that you're a self made man, what field of work are you in that affords you the opportunity to indulge your audio hobby ?
Held a security clearance while working for the government for a number of years working on building custom computer software for them, that's where I made most of my money.
Built a financial fraud detection system from the ground up. I can't talk details because it is classified work, but billions of dollars and millions of records flow through it each year.
If you live in the north west there is 50% chance your profile was stored in my beast (and probably still is ).

They put a lot of trust and faith in me. (i.e. They don't hire shady characters for such positions.)
I think they dumped me because I knew too much and had access to too many things, and/or the system was working and they just didn't need/like me no mores (who knows...whatever!)

If you ask me, my guess is that the system will probably fall apart within the next 10-20 years as nobody around will be smart enough to figure it out. Just a hunch... The code is well written but I still feel sorry for the next Gen-Z monkey that is forced to maintain alien code (while his Gen-X boss yells at him about how much he sucks. Round and Round we go... just as history has already proven of the babyboomers who lacked any foresight of today's current circumstances and tomorrow's effects as a result of said-causality. ad infinitum)

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post #496 of 510 Old 05-30-2015, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
It doesn't stress the subs as much and prevents / eliminates digital clipping.
So basically if there is a big LFE effect and sub 80hz from the center simultaneously you could end up with a big peak when added together that would clip, yeah?

Quote:
It also anchors deep voiced males to center screen a bit better, and various other center-bass center-screen anchoring.
That makes a lot of sense, I can typically localize a single sub in room if it's playing anything above about 60hz.


Quote:
They are nearly indistinguishable while watching movies at lower volumes. I've never sat up and noticed a difference.

It is at full THX Reference volumes or complex dynamic/impactfull bass that sets it apart. The beefier center remaining always-composed vs overloaded with bass. SEOS's is better for horror movies (more scare factor!)
So if you were to disable the extra subs in the LCR, and relied only on a competent sub (say 4x HT18's ported) do you feel you'd have the same quality as 803's or would you feel the SEOS design would be of lower quality?

Sounds like you had an interesting job with the government. That's the downside of doing a good job when designing a system, you design yourself out of a job (at least in the short term) Nobody understands the concept of long term sustainability anymore.....
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post #497 of 510 Old 05-30-2015, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
do you feel you'd have the same quality as 803's or would you feel the SEOS design would be of lower quality?
It's apples vs oranges.

The B&W 803's are more powerful in the 20-40hz region, the problem with the SEOS design is the 1khz mids, crank the bass up too high and the mids get muddy; and don't crank the bass and the B&W 803's will beat it on extension.

The only solution was to go 3-way SEOS, and now it is more-comparable to B&W 800's for bass output than 803's, and no more muddy mids and tonnes of extension to single digits (from front speakers LOL!)

I went to great lengths to have effortless sound, I now feel that I am there.
The B&W's were just fine as long as you keep it under 100dbA @ 9ft.

Both my 3-way SEOS's and 3-way B&W's benefited greatly from bi and tri-amping with EQ and active XO's cascaded with their passive XO's (or bypassed altogether if you feel like it.)
That alone is like a 50% improvement over standard-amplification with their stock passive XO's with no EQ (i.e. analog hardwire)
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post #498 of 510 Old 05-30-2015, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
Nobody understands the concept of long term sustainability anymore.....
C-Levels and upper-middle only understand dollars. Last years profit, this years profit, and their 5-year prediction chart.
They can't see beyond that... and they pay dearly for it in their turn-over rate and braindrain and re-work (and even re-rework) and low staff morale.
What happens when you outsource tax-payers money to India and China? I'll tell you what! They get richer and smarter and our country gets broker and dumber.
It's like trying to fill a bathtub without the drain plug in. DUR! What u think gonna happen?
Oh they are so low IQ it makes my brain hurt in my head movies! (and they even THINK they are doing a good job by avoiding these-very-things and then give themselves raises while locking everyone else's wages!)
Then they wonder why they are doing so bad, and have to make cutbacks while increases taxes.
Oh the pain! Don't even get me started... Sometimes I feel like I am an alien from another planet visiting a blue rock filled with dumb unwarrantly-aggressive apes who smell their fingers!
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post #499 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 02:35 AM
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If you think you're an alien visiting Earth, you know precisely how it is when people from the rest of the world talk economy and taxes with the Americans. Shall we make a thread?
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post #500 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
The B&W 803's are more powerful in the 20-40hz region, the problem with the
SEOS design is the 1khz mids, crank the bass up too high and the mids get muddy;
and don't crank the bass and the B&W 803's will beat it on extension.
Can you help me understand this a bit better? The SEOS design crossover from tweeter to woofer at 1khz. Are you saying that because the woofer covers 1khz and down, the only way to increase bass is to increase the woofer power and therefore there is distortion at the higher frequency at higher power handling?

With your current design you are crossing over at the following, correct:
two HO-15 for bass (<100hz or so)
one Cel 15 for mids (100 to ~1khz)
one horned tweeter for highs (>1khz)

This means that to increase bass, you can increase power to the HO-15 woofer without causing any issues to the Cel 15 mid correct, which means you get good strong bass without messing up the mids.

I'm trying to understand if the 1099 design addresses some of the issue with regards to muddy mid and bass impact. I have always liked the idea of full range response down to 40-60hz in my front stage and wondering if this is the way I should proceed, or start with the 1099's with biamping and eq in conjunction with 4x HT18 for subwoofer duties
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post #501 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
With your current design you are crossing over at the following, correct:
two HO-15 for bass (<100hz or so)
one Cel 15 for mids (100 to ~1khz)
one horned tweeter for highs (>1khz)
Yep, except they are UM-15's...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
the only way to increase bass is to increase the woofer power and therefore there is distortion at the higher frequency at higher power handling?
Yep.
More power + more heat + higher excursion = higher distortion.
By going 3-way you minimize excursion and distribute out the power to more coils and helps cooling.
They are basically subwoofers, but subwoofer dedicated for the Left and Right channels, not LFE; so it takes the load off the LFE in movie-mode, avoiding digital-clipping and amp-clipping and LFE-subs stress.
Same thing for the center channel.
Where as speakers set to small with redirected LFE bass, doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
This means that to increase bass, you can increase power to the HO-15 woofer without causing any issues to the Cel 15 mid correct, which means you get good strong bass without messing up the mids.
Yep.
You can increase the bass (if you want to), and it doesn't cause overloading or congestion or muddiness in the 100-1khz mids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
I'm trying to understand if the 1099 design addresses some of the issue with regards to muddy mid and bass impact. I have always liked the idea of full range response down to 40-60hz in my front stage and wondering if this is the way I should proceed, or start with the 1099's with biamping and eq in conjunction with 4x HT18 for subwoofer duties
I find that some music (especially vocals) doesn't sound right unless the fronts extend to at least 30hz. There are certain consonants and syllables that aren't produced correctly without it; as well as a lot of instruments and digital effects and ambience.
Exactly like a bookshelf vs a floorstander. You can add a sub to a bookshelf and it will sound good but it just ain't the same thing.

For example: Only a deaf-mute wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the sonic signature of a B&W 805 (small 2-way), B&W 804 (small 3-way) and a B&W 800 (large 3-way) while playing most Cole or Krall deep voiced songs etc etc etc.

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post #502 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 11:01 AM
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Thumbs up

Great pad bud, and your system is beyond ridiculous!
Those 460's look fab in that pile of madness!

Quote:
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While you guys were stuffed in an office all day listening to your boss screaming at you about how poor of a job you are doing... I was here getting a suntan and farting around with H2O.


With more money now rolling in, I suppose it is time for me to stop farting around and continue upgrading the theater... (I mean I sort of have been already with the HTPC upgrades), but I mean... the features and/or acoustical-side of it!

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #503 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 01:37 PM
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That explanation makes a lot of sense and was what I assumed. Have you had a chance to listen to any of the synergy horn or unity horn designs? My only concern with moving to a 3-way was that I was really intrigued by the fantastic reviews the synergy horn and JTR's, etc. were getting largely due to the great phase response and point source for highs and mid range. The thought of "compromising" with a 2-way waveguide was intriguing because it would be more straight forward with less phase issues. I'm wondering if moving to a more traditional 3-way, albeit with a waveguide, introduces a significant impact of phasing and lack of perceived soundstage?
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post #504 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by trpltongue View Post
My only concern with moving to a 3-way was that I was really intrigued by the fantastic reviews the synergy horn and JTR's, etc. were getting largely due to the great phase response and point source for highs and mid range.
I think you should be careful about believing reviews about why speakers sound good, that is just guessing, even if based on a lot of actual science its still guessing. If a speaker sounds good that's a useful review item, but not hypothesis as to why that is. That's useful for a PhD.

I can just say my 2 cents on proper compression drivers: You can afford to EQ down 15db to get a flat response and still breach reference level by over 10db. Hifi grade equipment only does this from the start by having incredibly low but even sensitivity. Like buying pre-chewed steak.
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post #505 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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still haven't published any watt/db measurements because I am still not sure I'm not making a mistake in my measurements.
It's 2.83v rms for 8 ohms measured at 1m (not accounting for any passive XO).
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post #506 of 510 Old 05-31-2015, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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That reminds me, I need to buy a mic stand so that I can take sweeps outside without getting too many reflections in the chart.
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post #507 of 510 Old 06-19-2015, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I just found out that I owe $8900 in property taxes this year. $3600 of that is due this week... EEK! So much for those planned upgrades for the foreseeable future (again!)

I was gonna buy theater seats, but I guess not anymore...

Iron's Law: You can have Possessions or Money; but not both simultaneously... (LOL!)

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Great pad
That's not my house, was just visiting at that moment in time.
He is looking to sell that house though. (It isn't optimized for a basshead like me, so it is a no-go...)

On a slightly related-note, fiber optic internet FTTH should be at my house in roughly 3-5 months (can't wait!)
They are starting us with a 20mbps upload speed, which is nowhere near the full speed of that line. (Not sure why they are doing that, probably cost I'm guessing...)

My current upload speed is 2.5mbps, which makes me a pretty sad panda. It's barely enough for 1080P uploads let alone 4K...
4K youtube is so high-res that I'd have to start doing better wood working so that the camera wouldn't pick up all the flaws. I can see the price tags of the aesthetical objects increasing already!

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post #508 of 510 Old 06-19-2015, 01:43 AM
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That's a bummer. The tax man came in hard in Houston. Our "assessed" property values went up 35% in 2 years so our taxes went up as well. From 10k to 13k per year . It's really getting out of hand. Artificial Inflation sucks.
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post #509 of 510 Old 06-19-2015, 07:34 AM
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That sucks. What is your effective tax rate in the US? In Norway we pay between 29% and 50% with a normal salary (50% being the max at around 450 000 USD annual income, 29% being at around 45 000 USD annual income. Pretty linear increase from one to the other). But we normally aren't stiffed by magically having our property "assessed" to be worth more, its the sale that decides what its worth, its worth what people will give for it.
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post #510 of 510 Old 06-19-2015, 08:06 AM
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That's a whole different discussion . When you factor in health care, dental, retirement, social security, and college for the kiddos, I pay about 40-50%
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