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7 SEOS12's, 7 Cel 15's, 6 Dayton UM's, Build Thread

59K views 579 replies 70 participants last post by  BassThatHz 
#1 ·
Two of these $220
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-605


Two of these $70
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-7069


So that is a $290 investment.


60 RMS @ 8 handling.

109db per watt.

Is that figure before or after the horn?



That sounds very LOUD compared to what I have now, especially considering that I have two 500w@8 monoblocks to feed them



If I were to buy such a thing, my concern is not the SPL, but rather the SQ.


Would it really be an upgrade for critical music listening or is it just a loud party tweeter?


The last thing I want is some screechy/honky sounding tops, and be shorted $300.

(I would activate my PV-215 if I wanted that.)


That said, I could... use a nice sounding "party" tweeter as well (Which my PV's are not).


I'm sitting on the fence.

It looks good on Paper. but does anyone have a video of these things in operation?

or more specifically, an A/B comparison video against a regular dome system?


I hate buying everything completely blind and trusting some sheet of paper/chart like it's the word of GOD (metaphorically speaking).
 
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#477 ·
after 4 long years, tomorrow I will FINALLY be putting the finishing touches on my old quad dayton kickbins. Sanding and staining... weather permitting. It's something I've been meaning to do for a long time coming, but now is that time.





I also ran out of speaker wire (again) for the last two SEOS's, so I'll have to run to the hardware store to get some more before I can mount the drivers, other than that they are good-to-go as well.


Slow but sure.
 
#479 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz  /t/1471580/7-seos12s-7-cel-15s-6-dayton-ums-build-thread/450#post_24737866


I think it depends on what it strikes, i.e. hitting a tree and vaporizing the water into steam and exploding the wood vs. soft ground or a solid object like a metal pole

One instance was the ground I assume. We were camping and trees were all around us. The sound and flash of light sent us all running instantly towards vehicles. Didnt see any damage to trees or anything else after the storm passed. Second time was also ground but it was wide open space off of our patio. The flashes and sounds were both equally terrifying even though neither hit an object. Its really undescribable how our reactions were in both cases but I'd prefer not to be that close again. You can literally feel it in the air and have heard stories from a few fisherman (you never know with their stories 😉) about feeling it before the strike. I've seen one of their fishing rods that he let go of right before it struck. Both guys said the line on their rod gave them an eerie feeling/warning although I didnt see one of their struck rods. The one I did see had hundreds/thousands of splinters dangling from the butt section like spaghetti.
 
#480 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02  /t/1471580/7-seos12s-7-cel-15s-6-dayton-ums-build-thread/450#post_24782847


are your mains stable when the built-in subs get moving? since you are down to the last micron of performance, that seems like a potential weak link...
I haven't noticed any rocking, although I'm on carpet.

The speakers weigh north of 110lbs, 85 of which is drivers.
 
#481 ·
Speaker #6 & #7 are done!




This is not their final resting position, just taken for quick photo.



The LCR's aren't totally finished yet, I have to revisit them. So that's up next...
 
#482 · (Edited)
I tried How To Train Your Dragon for the first time today.

The movie goes to 0.9 and 1.6hz? :eek:

The 6.5hz... my system can just barely reach that one because of my amplifiers.

First attempt got 104db @ 24hz max-peak.

and according to my UMC Mic-1 peak was 22hz:



Then I turned the LFE up another 3db.
Second attempt got 111db @ 28hz:

Didn't create a waterfall of that one.

Here is the raw LFE channel:



Got it crossed over at 80hz at the moment because I'm in the middle of experimenting with new sub positionings.
 

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#483 · (Edited)
When I get my tax return (assuming I don't owe anything), I was thinking of buying the last bit of DSP and XLR cables I need to get one step closer to completing my speaker-goal:


My speaker-goal was to have enough DSP for 3-way active LCR's,
which takes up 9 of the 18 channels of the DCX's,
the other 9 channels are for tri-channel subwoofers.

3 boxes with 9 inputs, of which I'll be using 8. So I need 1 XLR Y cable for the LFE, and another for the stereo signals.


 

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#485 · (Edited)
Yep 3rd.


So that's 30 XLR cables and 2 XLR Y splitters, and 6 RCA cables.

If I want to stereo sum the center, then I'll need a 3rd Y splitter for the Left matrix.


If and when I upgrade to an XMC-1 or RMC-1, I'll be able to get rid of the cleanboxes and RCA cables altogether, which will make things a bit simpler and more compact and changeable via remote control.
I'm not 100% sure if a XMC-1 is good enough to replace a 105 DAC and XSP-1 for music. I could always keep all 3 if not, the wiring is easy.
 

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#486 ·
While you guys were stuffed in an office all day listening to your boss screaming at you about how poor of a job you are doing... I was here getting a suntan and farting around with H2O. ;)


With more money now rolling in, I suppose it is time for me to stop farting around and continue upgrading the theater... (I mean I sort of have been already with the HTPC upgrades), but I mean... the features and/or acoustical-side of it!
 

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#487 · (Edited)
Order placed.
One step closer to done...

This will allow me to discretely adjust the timing on my horn subs, and allow a fully-active 3-way center channel, and a few other things...


Now I just need another 40,000watts to make this all work properly...
 

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#490 · (Edited)
The rack mount is crooked. It does not sit flush.
and redesign: no port in the front, I don't use it but my OCD is disgusted.
They also changed colors of the LED's. Oh the Pain!


 

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#491 · (Edited)
I got the stuff hooked up.
Had to completely rewire the inputs and outputs and manually transfer various DSP settings. Took forever (still not done, but enough to make it work.)

There is a 0.34ms difference between the first 2 DCX I bought. It is noticable on tweeters when driven from different boxes for maximizing stereo separation.
Now that I have fixed that the stereo imaging is sounding better than ever.
I kinda speculated that the DCX's might have bad crosstalk and this proves it to me now that the Left can't joint the Right and vice versa.

It is taking my ears a while to adjust, I find myself listening to all my discs again.
 
#492 ·
I have two more XLR cables to hook up and then my amps will be fully connected.

Almost using all 18 XLR outputs and 9 inputs. :eek: (My brain hurts in my head movies!)

I have 1 free for a another sub (don't even think about it!)
The other is for my center channel when I get more power.
1 of the 9 inputs isn't connected, it's not needed unless summing the center in music-mode.
 

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#493 · (Edited)
Wow! Just jumping into this thread and it's incredible.

Couple of questions as I've now finished all 17 pages :)

1) Regarding sub 80hz content in the center channel, what is the advantage vs simply crossing the center at 80hz and letting your ridiculous sub system handle the LFE plus the sub 80hz from the center?
2) How would you rate the SEOS vs the 803's at more moderate listening levels, say 90-95db, now that you've had a lot of time with them (for both music and HT, specifically dialog)?
3) From reading the posts I see that you're a self made man, what field of work are you in that affords you the opportunity to indulge your audio hobby :) ?
 
#495 · (Edited)
1) Regarding sub 80hz content in the center channel, what is the advantage vs simply crossing the center at 80hz and letting your ridiculous sub system handle the LFE plus the sub 80hz from the center?
It doesn't stress the subs as much and prevents / eliminates digital clipping.
It also anchors deep voiced males to center screen a bit better, and various other center-bass center-screen anchoring.

2) How would you rate the SEOS vs the 803's at more moderate listening levels, say 90-95db, now that you've had a lot of time with them (for both music and HT, specifically dialog)?
They are nearly indistinguishable while watching movies at lower volumes. I've never sat up and noticed a difference.

It is at full THX Reference volumes or complex dynamic/impactfull bass that sets it apart. The beefier center remaining always-composed vs overloaded with bass. SEOS's is better for horror movies (more scare factor!)

3) From reading the posts I see that you're a self made man, what field of work are you in that affords you the opportunity to indulge your audio hobby :) ?
Held a security clearance while working for the government for a number of years working on building custom computer software for them, that's where I made most of my money.
Built a financial fraud detection system from the ground up. I can't talk details because it is classified work, but billions of dollars and millions of records flow through it each year.
If you live in the north west there is 50% chance your profile was stored in my beast (and probably still is ;)).

They put a lot of trust and faith in me. (i.e. They don't hire shady characters for such positions.)
I think they dumped me because I knew too much and had access to too many things, and/or the system was working and they just didn't need/like me no mores (who knows...whatever!)

If you ask me, my guess is that the system will probably fall apart within the next 10-20 years as nobody around will be smart enough to figure it out. Just a hunch... The code is well written but I still feel sorry for the next Gen-Z monkey that is forced to maintain alien code (while his Gen-X boss yells at him about how much he sucks. Round and Round we go... just as history has already proven of the babyboomers who lacked any foresight of today's current circumstances and tomorrow's effects as a result of said-causality. ad infinitum)
 
#499 ·
If you think you're an alien visiting Earth, you know precisely how it is when people from the rest of the world talk economy and taxes with the Americans. Shall we make a thread?
 
#500 ·
The B&W 803's are more powerful in the 20-40hz region, the problem with the
SEOS design is the 1khz mids, crank the bass up too high and the mids get muddy;
and don't crank the bass and the B&W 803's will beat it on extension.
Can you help me understand this a bit better? The SEOS design crossover from tweeter to woofer at 1khz. Are you saying that because the woofer covers 1khz and down, the only way to increase bass is to increase the woofer power and therefore there is distortion at the higher frequency at higher power handling?

With your current design you are crossing over at the following, correct:
two HO-15 for bass (1khz)

This means that to increase bass, you can increase power to the HO-15 woofer without causing any issues to the Cel 15 mid correct, which means you get good strong bass without messing up the mids.

I'm trying to understand if the 1099 design addresses some of the issue with regards to muddy mid and bass impact. I have always liked the idea of full range response down to 40-60hz in my front stage and wondering if this is the way I should proceed, or start with the 1099's with biamping and eq in conjunction with 4x HT18 for subwoofer duties :)
 
#501 · (Edited)
With your current design you are crossing over at the following, correct:
two HO-15 for bass (1khz)
Yep, except they are UM-15's...

the only way to increase bass is to increase the woofer power and therefore there is distortion at the higher frequency at higher power handling?
Yep.
More power + more heat + higher excursion = higher distortion.
By going 3-way you minimize excursion and distribute out the power to more coils and helps cooling.
They are basically subwoofers, but subwoofer dedicated for the Left and Right channels, not LFE; so it takes the load off the LFE in movie-mode, avoiding digital-clipping and amp-clipping and LFE-subs stress.
Same thing for the center channel.
Where as speakers set to small with redirected LFE bass, doesn't.

This means that to increase bass, you can increase power to the HO-15 woofer without causing any issues to the Cel 15 mid correct, which means you get good strong bass without messing up the mids.
Yep.
You can increase the bass (if you want to), and it doesn't cause overloading or congestion or muddiness in the 100-1khz mids.

I'm trying to understand if the 1099 design addresses some of the issue with regards to muddy mid and bass impact. I have always liked the idea of full range response down to 40-60hz in my front stage and wondering if this is the way I should proceed, or start with the 1099's with biamping and eq in conjunction with 4x HT18 for subwoofer duties :)
I find that some music (especially vocals) doesn't sound right unless the fronts extend to at least 30hz. There are certain consonants and syllables that aren't produced correctly without it; as well as a lot of instruments and digital effects and ambience.
Exactly like a bookshelf vs a floorstander. You can add a sub to a bookshelf and it will sound good but it just ain't the same thing.

For example: Only a deaf-mute wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the sonic signature of a B&W 805 (small 2-way), B&W 804 (small 3-way) and a B&W 800 (large 3-way) while playing most Cole or Krall deep voiced songs etc etc etc.
 
#503 ·
That explanation makes a lot of sense and was what I assumed. Have you had a chance to listen to any of the synergy horn or unity horn designs? My only concern with moving to a 3-way was that I was really intrigued by the fantastic reviews the synergy horn and JTR's, etc. were getting largely due to the great phase response and point source for highs and mid range. The thought of "compromising" with a 2-way waveguide was intriguing because it would be more straight forward with less phase issues. I'm wondering if moving to a more traditional 3-way, albeit with a waveguide, introduces a significant impact of phasing and lack of perceived soundstage?
 
#504 ·
My only concern with moving to a 3-way was that I was really intrigued by the fantastic reviews the synergy horn and JTR's, etc. were getting largely due to the great phase response and point source for highs and mid range.
I think you should be careful about believing reviews about why speakers sound good, that is just guessing, even if based on a lot of actual science its still guessing. If a speaker sounds good that's a useful review item, but not hypothesis as to why that is. That's useful for a PhD.

I can just say my 2 cents on proper compression drivers: You can afford to EQ down 15db to get a flat response and still breach reference level by over 10db. Hifi grade equipment only does this from the start by having incredibly low but even sensitivity. Like buying pre-chewed steak.
 
#509 ·
That sucks. What is your effective tax rate in the US? In Norway we pay between 29% and 50% with a normal salary (50% being the max at around 450 000 USD annual income, 29% being at around 45 000 USD annual income. Pretty linear increase from one to the other). But we normally aren't stiffed by magically having our property "assessed" to be worth more, its the sale that decides what its worth, its worth what people will give for it.
 
#511 ·
this build is off the charts!!!

i do have one question. the low bass , say sub 10hz - is that your room, or the material?

ie, if you went direct to rew from preamp and not including the speaker- does it still have this low bass?
 
#513 ·
BassThatHz, I am interested in knowing how you came to choose the horn tweeter and 15" mid range drivers for your DIY speakers. I have B&W 600 series HTM61 as my LCRs and they are great for music but lack luster on movies. I was looking at the Klipsch RP-160s as a possible upgrade for more volume and dynamics in my theater. Then I stumbled on your DIY thread and I have been very impressed. I have some pretty heavy hitting subs, but I am looking for more volume and frankly "life" from my mids and highs, but I do not want to compromise sound quality or detail. My ears are very sensitive to high frequencies so smooth tweeters and upper midrange is a must as well. It seems you feel your DIY speakers are on par with your B&W 800 series speaker in the SQ department. How did you decide on your drivers? Thank for sharing your experience with me.
 
#514 ·
BassThatHz, I am interested in knowing how you came to choose the horn tweeter and 15" mid range drivers for your DIY speakers. It seems you feel your DIY speakers are on par with your B&W 800 series speaker in the SQ department. How did you decide on your drivers? Thank for sharing your experience with me.
I didn't.

I went for cheapest, because I was building 7 speakers and going with the SEOS 15 vs 12 and the more expensive mids would have more-than doubled the build cost, and me entering this horn adventure 100% blindly in addition to my prior bad experiences with horns (bars, concerts, city theaters) I didn't want that extra cost risk if it didn't pan out well.

The SEOS if anything, is actually dull and lifeless sounding. My UMIK confirms this, and detects a 3-15db rolloff between 10khz and 18khz. This can be and must be fixed with EQ (IMO.)
I assume that's just the nature of horns.
The B&W on the other hand is rock flat to 25khz, the limit of my cal file; with no EQ.

The problem with B&W is that: they get loud but not super-basshead loud or action-movie loud, they aren't efficient (they need 400watts per side to sound good and get loud / be dynamic), and IMO because of the small bass cones and high-LPF they tend to have excessive THD in the 200-500hz band and excessive bloat both of which must be fixed with EQ.
I honestly think that a 450hz 6db/oct slope (or whatever it is) is too much bass for a FST mid to handle, which causes extra mids THD, I had to fix this with extra hardware.
Also the 803 mid-box is handy capped, I modded mine 3 years ago to sound more like an 802 does; and it was successful. I've never told a sole that, until today.
If you do all those things and fix all those things then the B&W's can sound much much better than someone who just plopped the stock speakers on the floor and hit play.
The reason why all my B&W YT-vids sound so good, is because of me doing all those things (like quad monoblocks and DCX's, and room treatments).
The stock version as-is doesn't sound nearly as good. People not knowing that, are probably wondering why theirs doesn't sound that way. :p

The other problem, which isn't really a fault of the B&W but of all Hi-Fi, is that non-directivity controlled tweeters are highly room dependent. Hence why I gave my B&W a wig and built a side-wall diffuser for them.

For movies you need a speaker that gets loud, really really loud. Which means not-using any Hi-Fi or BestBuy speakers.
If you don't, then the dynamics will suffer and the dialog clarity will suffer, and you could lose bass from the "small" HPF setting (making it an even worse movie experience).
If you have a big room and multiple rows, it just makes it that much worse.

The B&W's are sometimes more transparent and do some small subtle vocal inflections that the SEOS's just masks over.
But on average, and specially for movies, the SEOS's wins by miles.

The B&W's were holding their own, up until I went from 6 to 10 subs, via the 4 LMS + an additional 10kW of bass. At that point they felt out-matched at high SPL. :D :D :D

The SEOS's get loud enough to literally cook your ears off at a distance of 20ft.
and if your SEOS's don't get loud, then you need to give them MORE POWER (stop using a receiver!), I give mine a full FP10k all-to-themselves, which is over 5000watts into the L+R for just mids and highs!!! I don't even know how much louder the SEOS's get, I'm afraid to find out...
I have a feeling I might be pushing them to theirs limits though... on rare occasion. and that is plenty loud, beyond party-loud and approaching a mini rock-concert.

I have B&W 600 series HTM61 as my LCRs and they are great for music but lack luster on movies. I was looking at the Klipsch RP-160s as a possible upgrade for more volume and dynamics in my theater. Then I stumbled on your DIY thread and I have been very impressed. I have some pretty heavy hitting subs, but I am looking for more volume and frankly "life" from my mids and highs, but I do not want to compromise sound quality or detail. My ears are very sensitive to high frequencies so smooth tweeters and upper midrange is a must as well.
The B&W 600's have bloated bass and shrill highs. They are "OK" for their price range when I auditioned them, but with that said, if everything from the 804's on down were good, then I wouldn't have had to buy Nautilus 803's now would I! I don't like wasting my money, but I don't want bad SQ either.
A used pair of CDM 9NT's are much better sounding for music than the CM and 600's, B&W stopped making 9NT's them because they sounded TOO GOOD for their price range and was loosing sales on the CM series and 804's. They sounded too close to the 804's... Believe it. :rolleyes:

Oh yes B&W (sales department) you can't get away with it I notice these things... :D

My ears are also hyper sensitive to distortion and bad SQ, I was able to pass this test; which isn't exactly the easiest thing to do.
10's of thousands of people have failed it. (Just try it.)
It's not just me being anal... I can ACTUALLY hear these distortions. (ok... maybe a little bit anal and OCD too. hehe ;))
https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html


I honestly think that the SEOS's could benefit from the 50khz super tweeter from 7kHz on up that I mentioned, basically a co-axial tweeter (well, sort of...)
Have a BA-750 do from 350-7khz and a ST from 7-50khz, and have the mid do from 100 to 350hz, and then the UM's. Basically a 4-way system.
It could also be more damaging to the SQ than a benefit because of CF, I wouldn't know until I tried it. (It's on my future to-do list.)
Not sure if it is worth all that extra effort to gain the last 1% of transparency, but at only ~$150, I'd be willing to at least give it a try...
Could make for an interesting winter-project.
 
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