7 SEOS12's, 7 Cel 15's, 6 Dayton UM's, Build Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 482 Old 08-19-2013, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some eye candy.

From left to right:
Stock Thrills,
My Mains template,
My Rears template.



This is merely a visual aid, just so that you can better envision where I'm going with all this.
The center will be just as beefy as my mains. eek.gif

No kill like overkill. biggrin.gif

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #182 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is what it looks like with pre-stain conditioner, with 10 minutes of stain, YUCK! I'm glad I didn't apply that.


and Here is what it looks like with a second layer of raw stain for another 10 minutes. I'm definitely doing this.


At an extreme angle in medium lighting it looks fairly black / charcoal looking... until you compare it with something that is actually black in brighter lighting and then you realize that it is actually dark brown.

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post #183 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 12:01 PM
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Looking good. I can't wait to see and read about your final impressions

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post #184 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 12:08 PM
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So are you doing 2 celestion woofers per box? Or am I looking at your layout wrong?
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post #185 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Here's some eye candy.

From left to right:
Stock Thrills,
My Mains template,
My Rears template.



This is merely a visual aid, just so that you can better envision where I'm going with all this.
The center will be just as beefy as my mains. eek.gif

No kill like overkill. biggrin.gif

On your mains, are you using three bass drivers? All your crossovers looked like they were set up for a single bass driver?

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post #186 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

That is EXACTLY what I'm doing.

The B&W 803's have:
-six 7" for bass (350hz to ~30hz)
-three 6" for mids (350-4khz)
-three 1" dome tweeters for highs (>4khz)

This will become:
-six HO-15 for bass (<100hz or so)
-three Cel 15 for mids (100 to ~1khz)
-three horned tweeters for highs (>1khz)

Pretty much the same thing, just beefier.
The center will be a horizontal configuration of that (24x45).

The LR speakers will stand about 4'4" tall; my B&Ws are 3'7"
(and will be quad-monoblocked with the same amps as-is.)

Each driver in it's own chamber as-needed.

All seven will be made as floorstanders.

I need that many binding posts for future flexibility, and also because I'll be making the front LCR three-way.
Active on the HO-15's LF (8ohm bridged 2400watts) and the bwaslo network for the HF (~4ohm 1000watts). Times 3.

Then the Cel 15's won't be as stressed out, and I'll be able to run the front LCR as full-range down to 20hz or deeper.

I want these things to knock my socks off, both now and into the future. I want these to last a lifetime. I want these to be "The One".

 

If I'm reading that right... Its the stock Cheap Thrills design but with two 15" subs added, one in the cheap thrills enclosure and another in a separate box.



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post #187 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

If I'm reading that right... Its the stock Cheap Thrills design but with two 15" subs added, one in the cheap thrills enclosure and another in a separate box.

Okay, that makes sense.

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post #188 of 482 Old 08-20-2013, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

On your mains, are you using three bass drivers? All your crossovers looked like they were set up for a single bass driver?

Correct.

Each LCR will have 2 HF-15's and a (DSP) Active low pass at 100hz.

The Cel 15's and SEOS will have an analog line-level 100hz high pass, in addition to its speaker level boards (which I don't really need, just there for "safety").
and *IF* it doesn't sound good in a box, then an additional DCX with cascaded into that, to shape the stock "horn sound" to be more of a Hi-Fi sound. *IF*

I already have it connected up this way, it works good, as heard in my last video, I'm just missing the HF-15's and the power of another DCX (and more XLR wires needed).

I do all of this without using a single RCA to XLR adapter nor any Y-spliter cables.

My system runs in pure dual-differential balanced XLR from end-to-end in 2.2ch mode (i.e. 8 differential signal paths), thanks to the XSP-1 pre-amp...
...at least it better HAVE that hardware inside it... I paid $1000 to have that FEATURE!
Goalline likes this.

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post #189 of 482 Old 08-24-2013, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Box #1 is coming along nicely.
About 50% done Box #1 and 25% done box #2.



I've completed all of the cuts for boxes 1 and 2 today. Minus the baffle routing.
Just a matter of waiting for glue to harden now...

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #190 of 482 Old 08-24-2013, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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60% done. Just putting on the binding posts on Box #1, then it's off to the router.



If you look closely you can see the inner baffle cut outs.

My new rears are almost as tall as my current mains, and 4 inches wider eek.gifbiggrin.gif

Now it's time to start gluing together box #2...

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #191 of 482 Old 08-24-2013, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Box #2 is 40% done.


Once I get this to 60% I'll call it a night.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #192 of 482 Old 08-24-2013, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Box #2 is 60% done.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #193 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 04:55 AM
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Are you using an active crossover for the HF15's and passive for the Cel & Seos? Sorry if this was already stated, I am a bit confused and can't recall exactly what you were planning.
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post #194 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 06:06 AM
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When I do projects like this I try to do it all at the same time. Each step.

I don't build speakers 1 at a time. it just seems faster to do each step on each speaker at the same time

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post #195 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

When I do projects like this I try to do it all at the same time. Each step.

I don't build speakers 1 at a time. it just seems faster to do each step on each speaker at the same time

I agree on the cutting of panels. Once you set the saw up for a panel width, cut all of them. On glueing up a cabinet, the number of clamps you own usually governs, especially if you are not using any fasteners.

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post #196 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Box #1 & 2 are 70% done.

First coat of stain on the sides and back is done, and first session of routing is done.



The front baffle will be 1.5 inches thick.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #197 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 02:07 PM
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Remember that the bigger enclosure won't handle the same amount of power as the smaller one it was designed for. Just curious, why are you making them so big?


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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post #198 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Remember that the bigger enclosure won't handle the same amount of power as the smaller one it was designed for. Just curious, why are you making them so big?

The bigger the better. biggrin.gif These are the "small" rear speakers BTW.

4 of the SEOS's will spend 90% of the time powered off. Only on the occasional time when I watch a movie will they be used.
and when they do get powered on, 90% of the their time will be spent below 90db; where it is safe to 20hz.

They only need to go to 100hz in my system. That's where the crossover point will be.

I'm 100% sure that people will be telling me to "turn it down" well before these speakers run out of steam. There is just no way you can run 7 SEOS's anywhere near max and not also not go deaf.



Full power @ LP (without any subs):


Anybody who runs these speakers as mains knows how loud these things can get; now imagine more than double that SPL (3 vs 7) up in the 1khz to 4khz range, there is no just no way anyone could tolerate that SPL comfortably.






Party tweeters... activated! biggrin.gif

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post #199 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 04:10 PM
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You make a box bigger to get lower extension, so I don't understand why you made them bigger if you are crossing them to a sub at 100 HZ?

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post #200 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Box #1 & 2 is 75% done.

I'll wait for this to dry and then I think I'll call it a day. (First layer)
Ran out of damn polyfill. I'll have to go get some more tomorrow.

I'll put the woofers into the boxes as soon as it is dry; even though it is not fully done, it will still be better than the freeair I'm running it as now.
I'm hoping that it will address most or all of the issues I noticed in freeair. Fingers crossed.



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post #201 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the ECM8000 results.

Left Pinknoise

Right Pinknoise





It almost sounds worse in a box, even though it measures near perfect.

So I rewired everything down to just one amp in pure-analog to simplify things, and it still sounded a bit off.

But, I think I might know a solution.
It sounded really good when played in the extreme left and right corners of my room and another 6 inches taller, which is another 3ft further to the listen position.
Not sure why but I think it has to do with it's coupling to my room. WEIRD.

The B&W's FST midrange is just too good for this cheap of a mid, me thinks.

They are loud and efficient, and apparently measure good... but they just don't sound as musical in the lower midrange and upper highs as the B&W's do (without digital trickery applied).

I'm not fully convinced yet. Perhaps massive amounts of polyfill will make the winning difference, or not.

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #202 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the Cel 15's is partially damaged, that's why it sounded so off but the measurements couldn't detect it. LOL

That's what you get for buying $50 china woofers and shipping them 9000miles, and then placing them into the hands of a mad man.
That's ok, the 8th one was DOA, had to throw it in the garbage. I'm on my 3rd dead Dayton 18 too, so it's all good. tongue.gif

Let's see how long the other 6 last shall we! biggrin.gif It will have to tolerate my many thousands of hours of high-SPL music, and I haven't even started yet! biggrin.gif

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post #203 of 482 Old 08-25-2013, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

One of the Cel 15's is partially damaged, that's why it sounded so off but the measurements couldn't detect it. LOL

That's what you get for buying $50 china woofers and shipping them 9000miles, and then placing them into the hands of a mad man.
That's ok, the 8th one was DOA, had to throw it in the garbage. I'm on my 3rd dead Dayton 18 too, so it's all good. tongue.gif

Let's see how long the other 6 last shall we! biggrin.gif It will have to tolerate my many thousands of hours of high-SPL music, and I haven't even started yet! biggrin.gif

lol, doesn't help that you abuse your speakers like crazy man biggrin.gif... there's a reason you have so many dead drivers wink.gif
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post #204 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Another cel 15 just failed. It didn't even get to 90db.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post

lol, doesn't help that you abuse your speakers like crazy man biggrin.gif... there's a reason you have so many dead drivers wink.gif

For several years now: all my LMS's and Mal subs are still working flawlessly and 3 of the original Daytons are still working flawlessly , all my B&W drivers are still working flawlessly , one of my two SDX-15 are still working flawlessly.
Also both of the SEOS's I've tried so far are still working flawlessly.

So that's 33 good drivers, 1 DOA, 3 confirmed that failed because of me, and 5 that IMO failed in the field from additional factory errors. Not too shabby...

These Cel 15 woofers had a problem after just a few minutes of use, not years of flawless operation LOL.

1 still working, 2 broken, 4 left...
Let's see how many last a week in my system, any bets? biggrin.gif

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post #205 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Another cel 15 just failed. It didn't even get to 90db.
For several years now: all my LMS's and Mal subs are still working flawlessly and 3 of the original Daytons are still working flawlessly , all my B&W drivers are still working flawlessly , one of my two SDX-15 are still working flawlessly.
Also both of the SEOS's I've tried so far are still working flawlessly.

So that's 33 good drivers, 1 DOA, 3 confirmed that failed because of me, and 5 that IMO failed in the field from additional factory errors. Not too shabby...

These Cel 15 woofers had a problem after just a few minutes of use, not years of flawless operation LOL.

1 still working, 2 broken, 4 left...
Let's see how many last a week in my system, any bets? biggrin.gif

did the celestions fail after just a few minutes of use each?? or did they take days or what not. I've cranked mine for hours and they've been pounding like champs. sounds like you got several together that were part of a bad batch.
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post #206 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I agree on the cutting of panels. Once you set the saw up for a panel width, cut all of them. On glueing up a cabinet, the number of clamps you own usually governs, especially if you are not using any fasteners.

I used brad nails instead of clamps biggrin.gif

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post #207 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 09:36 AM
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Do you have any bracing inside your L/R cabinets? Is there a double layer of ply for the baffle? No stuffing yet?
I don't see how you can meaningfully compare the sound quality of your L/R SEOS speakers to the B&W's unless you match the quality of the B&W enclosures. Cosmetics don't matter but you need dead cabinets. Free air sound quality means almost nothing since the woofers aren't designed for that. If you don't optimize the enclosures you're going to hear a lot of coloration.
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post #208 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Another cel 15 just failed. It didn't even get to 90db.
For several years now: all my LMS's and Mal subs are still working flawlessly and 3 of the original Daytons are still working flawlessly , all my B&W drivers are still working flawlessly , one of my two SDX-15 are still working flawlessly.
Also both of the SEOS's I've tried so far are still working flawlessly.

So that's 33 good drivers, 1 DOA, 3 confirmed that failed because of me, and 5 that IMO failed in the field from additional factory errors. Not too shabby...

These Cel 15 woofers had a problem after just a few minutes of use, not years of flawless operation LOL.

1 still working, 2 broken, 4 left...
Let's see how many last a week in my system, any bets? biggrin.gif

You're comparing $900 woofers to $50 woofers. You can beat pretty hard on a $900 woofer. Sending 1000 watts into a $50 woofer probably isn't a good idea. smile.gif The original design was great. You should've simply built the original design in the same box size and then run everything. Brute testing things with no crossovers or without a box is going to lead to some issues. The bigger the box, the less power the woofer will take. As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you needed a speaker that could handle 750+ watts, you should look towards the Fusion-15 with the B&C woofers. The buy out Celestions are very good, smooth woofers. But never designed to take huge amounts of power in large boxes or free air.

Either way, I bought a couple extra woofers. One forum member accidentally put a screw driver through the surround, so I've got maybe 1 or 2 of the buy outs left if you need a replacement.


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post #209 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

Do you have any bracing inside your L/R cabinets? Is there a double layer of ply for the baffle? No stuffing yet?
I don't see how you can meaningfully compare the sound quality of your L/R SEOS speakers to the B&W's unless you match the quality of the B&W enclosures. Cosmetics don't matter but you need dead cabinets. Free air sound quality means almost nothing since the woofers aren't designed for that. If you don't optimize the enclosures you're going to hear a lot of coloration.

Not yet, I'll be doing that this afternoon.
Adding the amount of bracing that B&W does will not be possible, they add bracing every 4 inches both vertically and horizontally. It would take me a month to build just 1 speaker to that degree.
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post

did the celestions fail after just a few minutes of use each?? I've cranked mine for hours and they've been pounding like champs. sounds like you got several together that were part of a bad batch.

Both within a few minutes / hours.

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post #210 of 482 Old 08-26-2013, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I used brad nails instead of clamps biggrin.gif

I mentioned that, because it looked like he was using glue only. That is how I built my speakers, no fasteners.

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