11.2 Bedroom: Options restrictions decisions oh my. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 05-06-2013, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I made a thread in the speakers section (HERE), and decided to go paint by num... er I mean "Do-It-Yerself (with help)" despite my abysmal woodworking skills. If need be, I'll just spend months whittling out enclosures (well not really, but with my OCD it's not unlikely).

I just couldn't decide, and I enjoy messing about with electronics (especially computers, love customizing my computers (ps3-linux before update killed the pinguin, archlinux/gentoo and non-explorer shell windows, and a rooted HTC Inspire with Jelly Bean). I knew there were schematics and diagrams for some popular DIY kits when I started my search for speakers, but didn't look to much into it until this past weekend. I'm amazed at the number of plans avalible, but did not expect to have so many very well documented ones! I thank everyone who has shared such materials with the world.


With so many options available, and my limited experience, I figured I'd ask again on the forum to help guide my decisions to point me the right way.
Budget: ~$2500-$3000, planning to build in steps--LCR, subs, surrounds, wides/heights, most likely in that order. With that in mind, the listed Budget is for as many upgrades I can get now, and will get the rest over time as money allows, so the budget isn't really much of a concern but I want to stay within reason for my room (no room for more exotic designs, could only use an array for front L/R but that is just to much overkill lol).
Receiver: Denon 4520CI, no external amps.
Use: Mostly computer gaming (moreso than consoles) and multi-channel music (like Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon: Immersion's 5.1 mixes) and movies the least.
Requirements: LCR idealy all the same, I'll be moving the tv to suit center channel size (LCR size can be tower or bookshelf, size is no issue). All other speakers must be near walls, with Surround L & Rear L/R exclusively wall mounted. Surround R and Wides have room for a speaker stand if it makes any difference. Heights need to hang from the ceiling (any mounts for this?)
Rear R speaker, thinking about replacing my door with something heavy duty and very secure when closed to get the rear speakers at ear level.
I am limited with my options, as I cannot build a crossover from scratch. I need a schematic for that, which means I can't just buy quality drivers and slap em in a box, they gotta be tuned and optomized which I lack the skills and tools needed.


With so much discrete channels in gaming I think timbre matching all around is strongly recommended for smooth immersion and proper imaging, especially behind you. My Room is ~1,000 cubic feet, with a 7.9' ceiling.
If I had to pick one I'd prefer a speaker that excells with multi-channel music over one that excells at the theatre experience. I think with only one seat to worry about anything should be great for both.

I was first interested in the Statements from the feedback about their amazing mid range performance. I can easily use three as LCR, but was concerned about timbre matching since Statement Monitors /Minis all require 1-2' from a wall which would place the side L/R extremely close, basically within arm distance away.
Next was any SEOS design, figured the great waveguide would be great for my room. Was thinking a *-15's for the LCR, and a mix of 8/10/12's for the rest where appropriate. Again I was concerned with timbre. Am I correct in think matching waveguide size and crossover designer is more important than matching compression drivers for these speakers? I've been trying to figure out how SEOS kits at diysoundgroup are ranked for performance. I did find the spreadsheet, but It's unclear to this layman. Specifically the differences between the two *-15 kits, and between the alpha-12, deltalite-II and fusion-12. Aside from the crossovers I think I need to find info on the differences between their woofer drivers, right?
Kahnspires are next to research, but others on my list are Dayton RS 3-ways, Modula, Natalie P, and some of their variants.

Now for some questions: How do any of the above compare to another, either listed or not (not limited to DIY speakers). I'd like to compare their quality, relatively.
In your opinion, are any of these better suited to my room than the others?
Any recommendations around this price range that I should add to my research list?
I'm very interested in a relative comparison between Statements, Khanspires and any SEOS.

I almost purchased the SEOS sets for LCR's last night on impulse, but forced myself to wait until I'm confident with my decision. Hopefully this thread will not only extend my research options, but also help me make a final decision more quickly than google searching (only so many hours in a day, and that's not enough for this forum lol). If no other options would provide equal or better mids/highs I'll probbably stick with a SEOS variant, I find the design is more interesting and I believe the waveguide would be a great asset for my room (if I'm wrong, please explain why--I like learning).
All replies are much appreciated!



Here's the layout from the previous thread, as well as notes:
-Circle is the MLP. Again, only I will use this room so sweet spot size is no issue.
-Current speakers are shown (7.1 standard layout), with an area marking where I plan to add Wides and Heights. Heights would be ~45° vertically somewhere in said locations, hanging down from the ceiling.
-Bed stays, but the desk will get replaced if needed to accomodate center speaker.

Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 05-06-2013, 10:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jay1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: AZ
Posts: 3,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 102
You're not going to find anything but praise for the SEOS designs around here, and they will work extremely well in a typical room due to the well controlled dispersion pattern. I wouldnt worry about having a different horn/CD for the surrounds, but I would try to stick with the same horn/CD for the front height channels if possible, so the smallest design using the SEOS 12 and DNA 360.

The Zephyr would be my pick for LCR.
Jay1 is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 05-07-2013, 06:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 453
Do you listen loud?

With 11 channels I'd focus more on placement than timber matched designs. You gotta make it all work/fit. $2500 is for 11 speakers plus subs?!?
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #4 of 28 Old 05-07-2013, 09:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Wow,that is a small room to try fitting all of those speakers in. In a similar sized room, I did a 5.1 setup with all the speakers about 3-4ft away from my head. Maybe start with a 5.1 setup with various iterations of the Kahnspires? Quality first, then quantity.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 05-07-2013, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah my room in small, and it's a crazy desire to have so many speakers in it, but I'm crazy. It's all for fun and the experience will be a great asset to help design a dedicated room in the future.

The budget is for whatever I can get now, it's more of a limit for the LCR's. I didn't want the budget listed to be a factor for the other speakers, which I'll also be building in pairs down the road. This lets me decide on a plan and schedule for many christmas days this year smile.gif
I do listen "loud", but that's relative to the room size. Around -40dB to -20dB depending on source quality, but for movies I have to get around -15dB for voices to be heard well (center is from JBL Cinema 300 HTIB set).


As for placement, Only the rears and left surround are very restricted. The worst being the left surround speaker. It's stuck to being in the window sill. At ear level the box depth cannot exceed 12 inches, but around 2-3 feet above ear level I have enough space to use the 2cuft SEOS flatpacks if I wished to do so, but probbably stay with the smaller ones (as long as it wouldn't produce noticable timbre issues).
I gotta compromise somewhere, and the room width is not frendly with most designs, like the Statements already mentioned.

If I'm wrong on hyperfocusing on timbre being a huge deal, given my room restrictions, I could ignore them to broaden my avalible options. Doing this would for example, make the Statement Monitors possible assuming my mock-up box isn't lying. I could barely meet their required boundary offsets with some interesting door and bed mounted speakers. I'd be at a loss for what to use for the surround L/R's though, I think I'd still want to have similar drivers to have them blend with the rest.

Again, this is the biggest reason I was looking into some SEOS kits, and currently the most likely choice, but would like for others to toss their hats in the card. I want to extend my options just incase anyone might know, in their opinion or from their experience, that might be something else may be better suited for my room (or stop me from making a decision based on bad/incorrect information). Maybe SEOS are perfect for my room, maybe Khanspires with In-Khan-neatos matching surrounds would be better, or maybe it's worth compromising surround L/R's for having better speakers everywhere else, it's impossible to tell without building, but I'd put more value on someones subjective opinion as they most likely have had more experience to influence them.


Actually, let me confirm something. I've been under the assumption that as long as no speaker is within arm distance that Audyssey could compensate enough to virtually distance all speakers to whatever the furthest away from me is, is this correct?


I plan to look into the Khanspires and variants next, but I've been busy trying to find retail-diy or diy-diy comparisons/opinions to relatively gauge design quality and differences.
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 05-10-2013, 07:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Timbre across the front three, is IMO very important, hence the reason they're called "mains" Mains shouldn't be just the L/R's, but L/C/R.
Now if the front three match each other exactly, IE, they're the same speaker (think 3 identical towers) that would be best. The next step down from there is to use the same tweeters, mids, and woofers, along with as close to an identical crossover as possible with the L/R's being towers and the C being a traditional horizontal center. The next step down is a C speaker that uses either a different tweeter, mid or woofer. You're losing timbre.
If the rears all match each other, that's great. You could have front speakers A (3 of them, 5 of them, whatever) and rear speakers B (2, 4, 6 of them, whatever) and call it a good compromise. It would be best to have 5/7 or even 11 identical speakers, but come'on, how realistic is it for a person to have 11 Dynamic 4T's/Khanspires/etc... tower speakers in a room?

So that said, build some nice L/C/R's that can be put in a bigger room later (something you don't want to upgrade), a good sub or two, and then 2 or 4 surround bookshelfs that match as close as possible.

If it were me, here is the order I would build as money came in. (and why)

1) L/R's (You gotta start somewhere)
2) Sub(s) (The next most important speakers to L/R's, which are your starting point)
3) 2 surrounds (2 surrounds are more important than a center because these are the starting point of "surround sound")
4) Center (Ties the front all together, but is optional in small rooms)
5) 2 more surrounds (not needed in small rooms, but become increasingly more important in bigger rooms)
6) More subs (Once you have 7 channels of audio, you're going to be putting out enough sound in a big enough room to want more oompf down low)
7) More surrounds in whatever path required to get to 11 channels. (Beh, after 7 channels, it doesn't matter what happens)

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 05-15-2013, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
After much debate, I decided to just go with my first set, LCR's, being some SEOS Fusion-12 "Tempest". Can't wait to get started!

I was undecided as to which set to get, between the 15" or 12" woofer kits, but opted to go for a 12" version because 1) I could always use whatever I got now someplace else, and 2) be lazy not having to cut my own box.
I OCD enough on things I figured I'd save the money to get some subs next.

Now to go read the many threads on sub. Budget I'm alloting myself for my space for subs only ~$1000, includes any extras like amps or dsp's. I'm planing to get at least two, but would settle for one if the end result would be a much deeper reaching result. I'm not to worried about sound modes for my space, or atleast I hope so, as any subs will most likely be very close to me.


I had a crazy idea of turning the base of my waterbed into a tapped horn sub, but man that is just to much work draining and dismantling the bed. Not to mention being risky having water above them.
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 11:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Trepidati0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

If it were me, here is the order I would build as money came in. (and why)

1) L/R's (You gotta start somewhere)
2) Sub(s) (The next most important speakers to L/R's, which are your starting point)
3) 2 surrounds (2 surrounds are more important than a center because these are the starting point of "surround sound")
4) Center (Ties the front all together, but is optional in small rooms)
5) 2 more surrounds (not needed in small rooms, but become increasingly more important in bigger rooms)
6) More subs (Once you have 7 channels of audio, you're going to be putting out enough sound in a big enough room to want more oompf down low)
7) More surrounds in whatever path required to get to 11 channels. (Beh, after 7 channels, it doesn't matter what happens)

I almost agree with your order. #7 needs to be about #9..#7 and #8 should be more subs. tongue.gif

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
Trepidati0n is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

I almost agree with your order. #7 needs to be about #9..#7 and #8 should be more subs. tongue.gif
Ah ha ha, AVS-DIY never lets me down. This has to be the most basscentric home audio forum there is.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Another reason I went the SEOS route, they go lower than others I was looking at for their size.

If only I could cut into the ceiling or floor, I'd have two great locations for an IB sub. frown.gif
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 06:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
wlhungdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Jonesborough, TN
Posts: 561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post

turning the base of my waterbed into a tapped horn sub
.

that sounds awesome ! Double dare ya !! eek.gif

The white zone is for loading, and unloading, only. If you need to load, or unload, please go to the white zone.... you'll love it, it's a way of life.
wlhungdude is online now  
post #12 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Might as well ask, might get better (and quicker) answers to some questions I have made note of while researching.


I'm looking into subs now. Again, ~1,000 cubic feet total room.
Without IB or very large (smaller than a Tuba) how low could I, or should I, go with a budget of ~$1000? I will need an amp for sure, and since I'm not making floorstanding mains I got room for external amps in some TV stands I've been looking at (none of them tilt though, which I want to fix 3D crosstalk, when centered vertically with the LG 55" LM7600).

I actually figured picking out a sub would be pretty straight foward, and it is... if you don't have preferences.
I'd love to reach into the tactile bass range, <20hz, the lower the better IMO. Can't wait to hear the cannons in the Telarc release of the 1812 Overture with some real speakers/subs.
At first I thought I'd just pick up two of THESE since they were in stock, but holding off to check my options.

It's question time again (sorry smile.gif)
I see lots of talk about "tuning" for your room. I assume REW and/or WinISD are required to make the most of it, but can I use an Audyssey mic or look into an actual SPL meter and/or something like omnimic?
Sealed vs ported vs other: I understand the general purpose but not the specifics. Do subs tuned for infrasonics trade off quality of audible ranges? What about port chuffing, more frequent the deeper they go? For this room size does sealed/ported really matter?
Any reason sealed "kits" are more plentiful than ported ones? Having the option of making a porthole can't be good, I mean that should require a different enclosure volume/dimensions right?
DSPs, are they still needed when using Audyssey's "Sub EQ HT"?
2 Plate amps vs 1 external amp, does either offer more performance for the price? Do plate amps effect sound quality?
Do bass traps affect infrasonics?
Big driver + smaller enclosure vs smaller driver + big enclosure. Assuming both drivers are within a few inches of eachother e.g. 12" vs 15" or 15" vs 18", are there any signifigant differences?
+18" with an adequate amp or 10-12" with a stronger amp. Is one generally more preferable? I'm guessing it's far to situational to have a rule of thumb.
Can I find out what my room gain is, presently, to help in selecting drivers/enclosure size?
Four (or more within budget) 8"-10" subs vs two 15", would there be a big difference in displacement and/or getting down low? Would the smoother response be a more preferable compromise?


As a reference point for myself, as a guesstimate how would a Klipsch RW-12d perform in my room. Extension, probbable SPL, loudness? What kind of performance difference could be assumed between this and a similar priced DIY (box, amp, driver)?
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 11:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
*note* My responses will be preceded by "=". They are not the 100% textbook answer, but just my answer. Another person my provide different answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post

I'm looking into subs now. Again, ~1,000 cubic feet total room.
Without IB or very large (smaller than a Tuba) how low could I, or should I, go with a budget of ~$1000?
=You can go quite low, but output will decrease the lower you go. How loud do you want to play? 80db, 115db? That number will change the frequency at which you can achieve that; The lower the dB's the lower the Hz. That said, anything under 100db and under 15Hz isn't very useful, raise either of those and you're in business.

I see lots of talk about "tuning" for your room. I assume REW and/or WinISD are required to make the most of it, but can I use an Audyssey mic or look into an actual SPL meter and/or something like omnimic?
=Possibly. REW is good because it can show you were in your frequency response you need adjust. I think the audyssey mic works with most USB sound cards, right?

Sealed vs ported vs other: I understand the general purpose but not the specifics. Do subs tuned for infrasonics trade off quality of audible ranges?
=No, infact tuning into the teens or lower helps the quality in the 30+Hz area by reducing box coloration (box effectively works as a BIG sealed box) and subsequently keeps group delay just like a sealed box.

What about port chuffing, more frequent the deeper they go?
=For the same port speed, yes.

For this room size does sealed/ported really matter?
=It always matters, but different rooms lend to different alignments. For your room, since it is so small, I'd lean towards sealed, since twin 12ft ported enclosures would dominate!

Any reason sealed "kits" are more plentiful than ported ones?
=Easier to build and allows folks more realestate to run MORE subs. It's easier place 3, 4ft sealed enclosures than it is 1, 12ft ported enclosure. Plus, with ported, you can forget about output below 12Hz, which is becoming all the rage around here.

Having the option of making a porthole can't be good, I mean that should require a different enclosure volume/dimensions right?
=Huh?

DSPs, are they still needed when using Audyssey's "Sub EQ HT"?
=Depends. You'd have to use Audssey and see if it works for ya. If it doesn't then you'd need a DSP.

2 Plate amps vs 1 external amp, does either offer more performance for the price?
=Pro amps offer the biggest bang for the buck in your price range.

Do plate amps effect sound quality?
=Not until they become non-linear, I.E., run out of power, which can be said about any amp.

Do bass traps affect infrasonics?
=No

Big driver + smaller enclosure vs smaller driver + big enclosure. Assuming both drivers are within a few inches of eachother e.g. 12" vs 15" or 15" vs 18", are there any signifigant differences?
=Speaking generalities, the larger the box, the greater the efficiency. So, larger driver in small box means more power demands. Small driver in large box means less power demands to reach mechanical limits.

+18" with an adequate amp or 10-12" with a stronger amp. Is one generally more preferable?
=18" with an adequate amp. You'll get more output than a 10" (by far) and be less likely to blow anything.

I'm guessing it's far to situational to have a rule of thumb.
=Small box, deep frequencies, efficient. Pick two.

Can I find out what my room gain is, presently, to help in selecting drivers/enclosure size?
=Use a test enclosure (typically sealed). Measure it outside and then again in your room. Compare the differences.

Four (or more within budget) 8"-10" subs vs two 15", would there be a big difference in displacement and/or getting down low?
=The two15's will likely have a greater potential for output being that they'll probably have more xmax than the four 10's. That will result in a greater Vd, and Vd is what creates all the output.

Would the smoother response be a more preferable compromise?
=In a small bedroom room? No. Two sealed 15's or 18's, wherever you can get them to fit, and iNuke3000, and call it a day.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 11:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
In response to my response, "=In a small bedroom room? No. Two sealed 15's or 18's, wherever you can get them to fit, and iNuke3000, and call it a day.", how about this.

4x Dayton DVC's = $480 shipped
1x iNuke3000 = $300 (+$100 for DSP) shipped
Sub total = $780 ($880 w/DSP) shipped.

Add in wood, glue, paint, wire, etc... and you're right near $1k.

4, 15's in a bedroom is a bit much, but permits you to upgrade to livingroom HT without upgrading your subs.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

*note* My responses will be preceded by "=". They are not the 100% textbook answer, but just my answer. Another person my provide different answers.

Well now, thanks a load for the reply.
The Audyssey mic has a standard 3.5mm phone connector, so I don't see why it wouldn't work. I was only interested in knowing if it was acceptible enough to use to take room measurements without spending more money. No need for needless expenses as the more I save the more it's spent on speakers smile.gif
Just to clarify what I ment about the porthole, I just assumed sealed enclosures were more popular because you can always cut a hole in a box if you want one. But I didn't think this should be true since sealed and ported box dimensions aren't the same.

I've seen the iNuke3000 and 6000 reccomended alot, are there any others that are commonly reccomended?



Oh, for the SEOS kits, is any kind of stuffing or other lining material needed for inside the enclosure? I've tried searching but never really found any real discussion on it. Would stuffing/lining them even do anything since they're ported?


*edit*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

4x Dayton DVC's = $480 shipped
1x iNuke3000 = $300 (+$100 for DSP) shipped

Wouldn't I need two amps? I only see two channels on the amp.
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 12:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I've seen the iNuke3000 and 6000 reccomended alot, are there any others that are commonly reccomended?
=The EP2500/4000 is another option and a solid perfomer.


Oh, for the SEOS kits, is any kind of stuffing or other lining material needed for inside the enclosure? I've tried searching but never really found any real discussion on it. Would stuffing/lining them even do anything since they're ported?
=Line the walls. Do not have any abstructions (fill) between the woofer and ports, or you will reduce the functionality of your ports.

*edit*
Wouldn't I need two amps? I only see two channels on the amp.
=Twin 8ohm VC's in parallel = 4ohm load. Twin woofers in parallel = 2ohm. So you would have two, 2ohm loads, one for each amp channel.
Personally I'm not a big fan of running house equipment at 2ohms, but that's just personal preference. Many many folks on here do it.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 01:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

*edit*
Wouldn't I need two amps? I only see two channels on the amp.
=Twin 8ohm VC's in parallel = 4ohm load. Twin woofers in parallel = 2ohm. So you would have two, 2ohm loads, one for each amp channel.
Personally I'm not a big fan of running house equipment at 2ohms, but that's just personal preference. Many many folks on here do it.

 

I run 2 ohm stereo on my Ep4000, works perfectly fine.

Mrkazador is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

=Twin 8ohm VC's in parallel = 4ohm load. Twin woofers in parallel = 2ohm. So you would have two, 2ohm loads, one for each amp channel.
Personally I'm not a big fan of running house equipment at 2ohms, but that's just personal preference. Many many folks on here do it.
Would 8+8 dual voice coil drivers being ran in parallel @2ohms be the same as 4ohm single voice coil drivers in parrallel?
Are THESE the Daytons you were referring to? Would the NU3000 have enough juice to use 4 of the Daytons in the setup you sugested? (kinda silly asking you since it was what you sugested, wouldn't expect someone to sugest something if it wouldn't work lol).
Those Daytons, their specs list 20Hz-450Hz and an Fs of 19Hz, but how much of that is true? I'm used to seeing electronics performing lower than marketing specs. If this is true, are there any drivers can can go lower within my budget?


*Edit*
Random idea: Say I get 4 subs, would it be a good idea to have one channel focus on infrasonic range and the other channel for say 50-100Hz?
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 05-19-2013, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I run 2 ohm stereo on my Ep4000, works perfectly fine.
And I know you're not alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post

Would 8+8 dual voice coil drivers being ran in parallel @2ohms be the same as 4ohm single voice coil drivers in parrallel?
=Yes. Wiring VC's in parallel gives you half the total reistance. In series gives you double the resistance.

Are THESE the Daytons you were referring to?
=Yes.

Would the NU3000 have enough juice to use 4 of the Daytons in the setup you sugested? (kinda silly asking you since it was what you sugested, wouldn't expect someone to sugest something if it wouldn't work lol).
=Yes. You may want to check them out in WinISD just to see how it all performs. The MFW-15's I have, which are similar to the Dayton DVC's, but a small step down, can be over powered by an EP4000.

Those Daytons, their specs list 20Hz-450Hz and an Fs of 19Hz, but how much of that is true?
=Normally, with sealed boxes, you forget about the specs and just EQ the frequency response to what you want. Sealed is super easy.

I'm used to seeing electronics performing lower than marketing specs. If this is true, are there any drivers can can go lower within my budget?
=With sealed boxes, your output is wholly dependent upon Vd (the amount of air the driver displaces at xmax). So, X liters at Y Hz produces Z dB. Decrease Y or X, and you decrease Z.

*Edit*
Random idea: Say I get 4 subs, would it be a good idea to have one channel focus on infrasonic range and the other channel for say 50-100Hz?
=With identical subs, no because you will just lose output. With different drivers, it could work. That's what some folks do - use lots of large, innefficient for the lowest frequencies, and then a couple highly efficient pro audio woofers for the >50hz area for that chest thump.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 05-19-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

=Yes. You may want to check them out in WinISD just to see how it all performs. The MFW-15's I have, which are similar to the Dayton DVC's, but a small step down, can be over powered by an EP4000.
Unless there are two drivers that can out perform the Dayton's you mentioned for the same cost, I'll take your advice and go with them. I've been messing with WinISD to model these drivers and other options, but it really dosen't like my pc (win 7 x64, overclocked), constant errors and crashes even in compatibility mode. frown.gif
Looks like these are a great bang:buck driver and would be hard to beat with my budget.

Would you happen to know a good size of an enclosure that would keep me from hitting xmax? They can be seperate or dual opposed, and anything under 6'^3, I'm guessing around 3-4' would be where xmax would be reached? If so, I'd probbably be lazy and just get some of Erich's flatpacks.

I'll probbably get the iNuke with dsp, or minidsp, to get the most out of them.
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 05-19-2013, 12:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 248

3cu ft each or dual 6cu ft seems to be a good size.

 

 

 

 

 

Set the compatibility mode for Winisd to Windows 98 / Windows Me. That works fine for me in Win7 x64.

Mrkazador is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 05-19-2013, 04:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
MrK has your info. 114db at 20hz is nothing to scoff at in a 1000^3ft room. Once you factor in some room gain, you'll be hitting reference throughout most of the bass spectrum.

BTW, he modeled them in 3^3ft boxes.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 05-20-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

3cu ft each or dual 6cu ft seems to be a good size.
...
Set the compatibility mode for Winisd to Windows 98 / Windows Me. That works fine for me in Win7 x64.
Ok I am having a blonde moment. In your screenshot I see 12 ft³ as the final volume, yet you state "3cu ft... ...seems to be a good size", or have I failed to comprehend? For the volume shown I would need a box of 2 feet 3½ inches (27.5 inches) lxwxh, correct?. Because those dimensions don't come close to what Erich has listed for his 3 cu ft flatpack.
I the box needs to be more than a few inches larger than that, I may spend more time looking at +18" drivers if I can find any that go well with the ~1000 RMS@2ohms the iNuke 3000 can put out. If no other pairs can beat four of DVC385-88 that's fine, I just don't want to have regrets--"I wish I didn't make these boxes", "I still have things on the wall, there has to be something a little better I could have bought".
smile.gif


As for WinISD, I mentioned that compatibility mode didn't help. I just put it on a usb stick and used it at work. My results are different. Below is what I get using your listed settings for volume and input power. Two projects shown, but it's only to show both tabs at once. I didn't take a screenshot of it, but when I doubled the volume for dual opposing it modeled at having unexpected worse frequency response but expected gains of only a 1.5-2dB increase while reaching xmax around 37Hz.
The values I used has been taken from Dayton's DVC385-88 pdf.The url points to "295-190s.pdf". Seems strange since the contents are for a DVC385-88.
I've also attached the driver file I used as well if someone want's to check for a blunder.

Thanks for all the help thus far guys, much appreciated. My original plan was to get some HSU VTF line, but only one, but with your guidance I think I'm doing much much better for the price.



Dayton Audio DVC385-88.zip 1k .zip file
Attached Files
File Type: zip Dayton Audio DVC385-88.zip (751 Bytes, 1 views)
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 05-21-2013, 01:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post


Ok I am having a blonde moment. In your screenshot I see 12 ft³ as the final volume, yet you state "3cu ft... ...seems to be a good size", or have I failed to comprehend? For the volume shown I would need a box of 2 feet 3½ inches (27.5 inches) lxwxh, correct?. Because those dimensions don't come close to what Erich has listed for his 3 cu ft flatpack.
I the box needs to be more than a few inches larger than that, I may spend more time looking at +18" drivers if I can find any that go well with the ~1000 RMS@2ohms the iNuke 3000 can put out.

 

The reason its 12cu ft is because I'm modeling 4 drivers at the same time, this way its easy to see how much power you can feed all drivers before passing xmax (excursion). Each driver will go into a single 3 cu ft enclosure. You want 4 enclosures so in total that is 12 cu ft.

 

You can use this calculator to figure out enclosure volume. EricH is correct, the enclosure volume would be right at 3cu ft after bracing and driver volume.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/enclosure-volume-calculator/

 

 

 

Quote:
As for WinISD, I mentioned that compatibility mode didn't help. I just put it on a usb stick and used it at work. My results are different. Below is what I get using your listed settings for volume and input power. Two projects shown, but it's only to show both tabs at once. I didn't take a screenshot of it, but when I doubled the volume for dual opposing it modeled at having unexpected worse frequency response but expected gains of only a 1.5-2dB increase while reaching xmax around 37Hz.
The values I used has been taken from Dayton's DVC385-88 pdf.The url points to "295-190s.pdf". Seems strange since the contents are for a DVC385-88.
I've also attached the driver file I used as well if someone want's to check for a blunder.

 

Your driver file is pretty much the same as mine. I use this guide when entering the parameters: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/6330-winisd-pro-tutorial-download-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html

 

The problem you are having is that you only modeled ONE driver in a 12cu ft enclosure... You want to add FOUR drivers like so

Mrkazador is offline  
post #25 of 28 Old 07-26-2013, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Figured I'd update this thread in thanks for the help I've gotten.

Build 3 SEOS 12 Tempests and 4 Dayton DVC 385-88 sealed enclosures (3 cubic feet) powered by an iNuke 3000 DSP@2ohms stereo (each channel is a parralel pair, each pair of voice coils are also parallel).

Not much of a picture, taken with my phone at the back corner of my room which still needs cleaning (like the chair on my subs!)
Anyways, thanks so far. Greatly enjoying my man cave of awesome. Only 8 more speakers to build in the future!
)
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 07-26-2013, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Stumbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Now that's awesome!
Stumbo is online now  
post #27 of 28 Old 07-26-2013, 07:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 248
I'd be afraid of that sub falling down.
Mrkazador is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 07-27-2013, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 144
How do you like those Dayton DVC's compared to you RW12d?
Martycool007 is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off