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post #1 of 26 Old 05-12-2013, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello my friends,

You all have been a huge help over the years with my theatre system build.

(Klipsch RF82, onkyo tx-sr875, EP4000 and a DTS-10)

This system, in my 15x25 room with a concrete floor is _incredible_. I absolutely love it.

However, I am moving onto a new phase of life where I'd really enjoy an outdoor system for heavy-bass music.

The RF82s and the Onkyo have done really well here. The DTS-10 and the EP4000 have really fallen short. I just don't
think this is the right application for a DTS-10. I'm looking for suggestions on subs that I could build and put against a
15 foot tall concrete wall to project into my backyard (2 open acres). Any suggestions on some big sound with big thump?

I hate using non-technical terms, so forgive my abrupt and casual language. My current budget for the subs is about $2k

Thank you!
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post #2 of 26 Old 05-12-2013, 10:36 PM
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Do you have a size constraint? I would think a pair of dual 18" 30hz ported subs, with an extra ep4k, for bridge 2k watts to each sub would be enough for most people?

4ea B&C TBX100

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-676


Each pair in 15ft3 with four 6" x 15" ports for a tune just above 30hz (7.5 ft3 and two 6" x 15" ports for each woofer). You should be good for 129 db from each pair of subs, +6db if you co-locate the subs.


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post #3 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply! No size constraint at the moment. I think the DTS-10 reaching down to 10hz is just a waste for most music. I think a 30hz tuned ported subs would be fantastic and hopefully give me that punch that I am looking for!

Thanks for the reply! Should I still use my MiniDSP for this?

I have the (I believe it's balanced) RCA subwoofer out going into the miniDSP and XLR (balanced obviously) out of the MiniDSP.

The EP4000 was in a lightening storm a few weeks ago and now only one channel works, but I am looking for a new amp for this project anyways.

I also have an TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" that just scraped it's magnet, so I will need to order another if I were to use it.
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post #4 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Any recommendations on a box? I was able to piece together the DTS-10 kit and can handle a little more in-depth but not too much! Thanks!
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post #5 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 04:18 PM
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge.html

There are are some great designs in this thread, although most are limited down to 40hz.

If you want to get down to 20hz, 4 micro wreckers with the Alpine Type S would be a good cost effective start, and run you about 1,000 dollars.
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post #6 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkruse View Post

Any recommendations on a box? I was able to piece together the DTS-10 kit and can handle a little more in-depth but not too much! Thanks!

A basic ported build isnt going to be complicated at all. Here's a basic box shape that will net you the volume for a single 18" B&C TBX100. You would just have to figure out the bracing, which really isnt complicated. You could stack two boxes (glue them together, or just set them next to each other) and wire the drivers in parallel for a 4 ohm load.



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post #7 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 06:15 PM
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the way that what you are describing is traditionally handled in a pro audio environment is with 18" drivers in a ported cab and crossed to the mains at 100hz.

something like this: http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=444&MId=3

or something like this: http://yorkville.com/loudspeakers/tx/product/tx9s/

a horn loaded subwoofer can get you more spl, but the build is a little more complicated and the enclosures are larger per driver than ported.

here is an example of a front loaded horn: http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/folded-horn-subwoofer/folded-horn-subwoofer-series.html

this page has a diagram showing how a front loaded horn works on the inside:

http://forum.speakerplans.com/burn-it-or-sex-it-up_topic60272_page2.html

last, there is the tapped horn design, which is like your dts10, but tuned much higher.

th118 is an example of that: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/tapped-horns/th118/

tapped horns do not have the sealed enclosure on the inside.

the horn subs will give you more spl per driver, but again the enclosures are larger per driver.

most of the specs are kind of bogus, so take them with a grain of salt.
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post #8 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 06:45 PM
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so what to do?

given your budget and blowing past it a bit but with a simple build, i'd suggest:

four units
18 sounds 18lw2400 drivers, 4 ohm version, wired 2 drivers in parallel for 2 ohms net per channel
forward firing ported enclosures, 9 cubic feet each
slot port in each cabinet, 20" wide x 4" high x 20" deep, for a tuning frequency of 30hz

that will give you a system that is about 100db sensitive 1w1m across the bass range.

a cerwin vega amp cv5000 for 5000 watts power.

that will give you about 137db spl 1/2 space or 140+ up against a wall.

it overshoots xmax by some at the very top of the power, but that is fine.

high pass at 30hz, with eq boost at 30hz
low pass at 100hz to mains

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #9 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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This is absolutely fantastic. I'll start with it now and keep you guys all updated. Thank you!
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post #10 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

so what to do?

given your budget and blowing past it a bit but with a simple build, i'd suggest:

four units
18 sounds 18lw2400 drivers, 4 ohm version, wired 2 drivers in parallel for 2 ohms net per channel
forward firing ported enclosures, 9 cubic feet each
slot port in each cabinet, 20" wide x 4" high x 20" deep, for a tuning frequency of 30hz

that will give you a system that is about 100db sensitive 1w1m across the bass range.

a cerwin vega amp cv5000 for 5000 watts power.

that will give you about 137db spl 1/2 space or 140+ up against a wall.

it overshoots xmax by some at the very top of the power, but that is fine.

high pass at 30hz, with eq boost at 30hz
low pass at 100hz to mains

The CV does 2500W stereo at 2ohm, so two CV-5000s would be a fit for two boxes with four drivers total? (in a configuration similar to the JBL).
(2 amps, 4 drivers, 2 boxes - right?)

Also, I have an TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 that needs a new basket assembly because of a screw that came lose on the magnet which immediately
penetrated the wiring at the bottom of the cone. The basket assembly seems to have really gone up in price (almost $500!) Should I just forget about
using this subwoofer in this configuration?

Thanks again!
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post #11 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 11:52 PM
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"The CV does 2500W stereo at 2ohm, so two CV-5000s would be a fit for two boxes with four drivers total? (in a configuration similar to the JBL).
(2 amps, 4 drivers, 2 boxes - right?)"

the driver is available in 4 ohm version and 8 ohm version.

one option is to get the 4 ohm version of the driver. 2 of those wired in parallel present a 2 ohm load. one pair of drivers (2 ohm load) per channel on the amp for a total of 4 drivers per amp. that will provide about 1250 watts to each driver.

another way and more expensive option would be to get two amps and put one driver on each channel. that would provide about 2500 watts to each driver. that is probably too much unless you have a good idea of keeping excursion under control.

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post #12 of 26 Old 05-16-2013, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The CV does 2500W stereo at 2ohm, so two CV-5000s would be a fit for two boxes with four drivers total? (in a configuration similar to the JBL).
(2 amps, 4 drivers, 2 boxes - right?)"

the driver is available in 4 ohm version and 8 ohm version.

one option is to get the 4 ohm version of the driver. 2 of those wired in parallel present a 2 ohm load. one pair of drivers (2 ohm load) per channel on the amp for a total of 4 drivers per amp. that will provide about 1250 watts to each driver.

another way and more expensive option would be to get two amps and put one driver on each channel. that would provide about 2500 watts to each driver. that is probably too much unless you have a good idea of keeping excursion under control.

Ok, that was my question, thanks! Running them at 1250w/driver should be sufficient? Excited to get building! Drivers ordered
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post #13 of 26 Old 05-16-2013, 09:44 PM
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"1250w/driver should be sufficient?"

the largish cabinets increase sensitivity somewhat on the low end and with the lowish tuning (for a p.a. type system), excursion is a little more than typical too. 1250 watts per driver should be good.

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post #14 of 26 Old 05-17-2013, 07:44 AM
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With your budget you should be building either Lilmike microwreckers, or maybe the Bill Fitzmaurice t60. 2 grand will build you 4 micro wreckers (more if you find a good deal on drivers) . not sure on the t60- I think they cost about 400-500each to build. I'm sure Bill will chime in here evetually.


From Bill's site- Suggested Audience Size, 2x12 loaded:
1 cab up to 200; 2 cabs up to 500; 4 cabs up to 2,000; 8 cabs up to 6,000; 12 cabs up to 10,000

I know the microwrecker is made for a 25-80hz sweet spot, it gives up a little output below 25 but gains a bunch over that. And From what I hear, it is not overly large either.
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post #15 of 26 Old 05-17-2013, 08:51 PM
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a t60 loaded with two lab 12's would be a good option or he could really go crazy and build a quad set of 12pi's.

the point is it is that horns are a much more complex build though, so that has to be considered. the big t60 is also 30+ cubic feet.

in the t60, output around 45hz hits xmax for the drivers at about 129 db, while the 18" ported cab hits xmax around 121db and it is 9 cubic feet or so. two 18"s get about 127 db in 18 cf. both are meant to shoot past rated xmax a bit, so actual spl will be higher.

the horn will provide higher spl higher in the frequency range, which is their primary strength.

if horns were superior in all ways, everybody would use them.

the specs are also not comparable. horns provide greater sensitivity in most cases, but not so much after considering their size.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #16 of 26 Old 05-17-2013, 09:16 PM
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I built a pair of 30" t48 a few years back for the party I throw at the American Royal BBQ, giant bbq competition in kc. You are limited at above 30hz with t48, but they are very efficient and what you get above 35 in spl makes up for it. They pound great bass through a few hundred people outdoors during this festival. I get quite a few dj gigs each year from that party because of the sound - I'm not a dj. I think they would be a great choice for your back 40 and be cheap to build and power


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post #17 of 26 Old 05-20-2013, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replys! I done mind sacrificing anything under 35hz for more spl. With that said, the horn builds seen much more complex, though I may just be scared off. I definitely want high spl and don't mind sacrificing the lower end. Still up in the air on what to go with! Thanks again for chiming in!
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post #18 of 26 Old 05-20-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I could get all the panels pre-fabbed at home depot, and I'm fairly confident I could assemble it. If the benefits of the horn are really that high!
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post #19 of 26 Old 05-20-2013, 12:57 PM
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Home Depot won't make accurate cuts.



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post #20 of 26 Old 05-20-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
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Home Depot won't make accurate cuts.

close enough for a simple box when i had a few boxs cut for me worst thing was that they weren't square but pl fixs all problems :P
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post #21 of 26 Old 05-21-2013, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thinking of going with a few previous suggestions of multiple Tuba 60 cabinets.

One of the builders in AL is giving be a good deal. Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll report back!
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post #22 of 26 Old 05-22-2013, 08:34 AM
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Thinking of going with a few previous suggestions of multiple Tuba 60 cabinets.

One of the builders in AL is giving be a good deal. Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll report back!

I don't think you'll be disappointed. They are made for large venue type stuff. You might want to send lilmike a PM regarding the micro wrecker, it is also quite potent- maybe even more. 5 sheets of 3/4 arauco ply and 2 (15 cvx, 15 si, 15 lms-r) and call it a day.
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post #23 of 26 Old 05-22-2013, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think you'll be disappointed. They are made for large venue type stuff. You might want to send lilmike a PM regarding the micro wrecker, it is also quite potent- maybe even more. 5 sheets of 3/4 arauco ply and 2 (15 cvx, 15 si, 15 lms-r) and call it a day.

Hey Storm, good suggestion. I mean, the builder is giving me a good deal but it's still going to be about $800/cabinet (I believe) without the speakers.

It definitely limits me to 1 and MAYBE 2. The microwrecker sounds like they stack well and is something I could do, which means I could get more of them!
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post #24 of 26 Old 05-22-2013, 12:20 PM
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each one takes a little more then 2 sheets to build, the 5th sheet is for the bracing unless you already have the scrap wood to make some. So if you can source the drivers for around 400, you can build a pair of them for under 750 if you do the woodworking yourself. Including all materials, pl, screws, etc.
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post #25 of 26 Old 05-22-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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each one takes a little more then 2 sheets to build, the 5th sheet is for the bracing unless you already have the scrap wood to make some. So if you can source the drivers for around 400, you can build a pair of them for under 750 if you do the woodworking yourself. Including all materials, pl, screws, etc.

Would you recommend the Alpine instead of the Kicker's? (They seem to be a lot cheaper, may be able to build 4 or 6 microwreckers)

What amp are you using to run two of them?

Thanks Storm!
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post #26 of 26 Old 05-22-2013, 01:51 PM
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From what I have heard, the alpine is about 90% as good as the kicker. I do not personally have a pair yet. I was about to build a pair ( have some cvx collecting dust in the basement) then life happened and drained my sub building money.

I'd use a inuke 6000 if you want bang for the buck, each cab will take 1000 watts.
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