Dual Othorn build - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-01-2014, 06:58 AM
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Chrapladm,
The build I'm going to call the Palehorn with these is the exact same footprint as the Othorn. 36x36x24. It is a completely different cab though. I don't intend to share the cab plans for this one. I may change my mind later but it really won't work with other drivers and I have to do a bunch of testing on it first to get it right.

Mark,
Somewhere floating around in some B&C or PS literature is a Klippel BL curve from a prototype Ipal 21. This one has a 50% increase in coil overhang vs the 21sw152 and also a 50% increase in gap height. The suspension system seems to be limiting a before the motor. Anyway I would say linearity is the same just more extended. It has the same type of shape to the BL curve which looks somewhere between a tall gap overhung and a split coil.

In order to get it to around 2.5" peak to peak I ran it with a 37Hz sine wave in free air at the impedance maximum. Damn near rattled my desk apart. Otherwise my Crest 8002 wanted no part of high power at the load it presented.
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Old 11-01-2014, 05:33 PM
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I figured as much Ricci and thats fine. I was only curious to know more about your monster. If I am able to get an IPAL 21" next year then I will just use it in a Othorn for now. If perhaps you wish to share then thats aweome. Either way thanks again for sharing your Othorn and Ghorn designs.

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Old 11-01-2014, 07:00 PM
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No problem...I just don't want to put out anything that I haven't verified as being up to snuff first. Plus I can't have anyone build my own toy designs before I even get to!
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:17 PM
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You've had it for 2 years already.......LOL. J/K
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
The B&amp;C 21sw152-4 drivers arrived this week, and the BB plywood will be delivered on Monday!<br><br><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/216767/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="216767" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/216767/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL" style="; width: 500px; height: 667px"></a><br><br><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/216768/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="216768" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/216768/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL" style="; width: 500px; height: 667px"></a><br><br>
UPDATE:<br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/lukeamdman/media/othorn/a6fb478a-482d-43d4-8605-782369ca88ba_zps7d8abd8e.jpg.html" target="_blank"></a><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259813/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="259813" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259813/flags/LL" style="; width: 768px; height: 1024px"></a><br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/lukeamdman/media/othorn/20130622_114816_zps5fc42c08.jpg.html" target="_blank"></a><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259814/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="259814" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259814/flags/LL" style="; width: 1024px; height: 768px"></a><br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/lukeamdman/media/othorn/20130629_182337_zpsdd5b54ac.jpg.html" target="_blank"></a><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259815/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="259815" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259815/flags/LL" style="; width: 768px; height: 1024px"></a><br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/lukeamdman/media/othorn/20130629_182310_zpsfe005886.jpg.html" target="_blank"></a><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259816/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="259816" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259816/flags/LL" style="; width: 1024px; height: 768px"></a><br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/lukeamdman/media/othorn/20130704_161009_zps749f8e69.jpg.html" target="_blank"></a><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259817/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="259817" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259817/flags/LL" style="; width: 1024px; height: 768px"></a><br><br><a class="bbcode_url" href="http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/lukeamdman/media/othorn/20130704_161047_zps05118c20.jpg.html" target="_blank"></a><a class="H-lightbox-open" href="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259818/"><img alt="" class="lightbox-enabled" data-id="259818" data-type="61" src="http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/259818/flags/LL" style="; 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Good God man. That's Awesome. As someone who's going through a build at the moment I really appreciate the craftsmanship & work put into that.
Before recently my 1st build I couldn't have the perspective to truly appreciate that
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Good God man. That's Awesome. As someone who's going through a build at the moment I really appreciate the craftsmanship & work put into that.
Before recently my 1st build I couldn't have the perspective to truly appreciate that
Thanks man.

I'm glad these weren't my first attempt at a DIY build..

If you like these you should take a look at the Gjallarhorn builds in my signature.
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:01 PM
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You've had it for 2 years already.......LOL. J/K
Hey man...I've been busy, so sue me! Trust me I'm wondering what the hell my hold up has been myself!
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:28 AM
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All good Ricci. I looked back at my older posts and talking about building your designs only to see I am just now getting ready to build one. Waiting on a price for the IPAL but should have a 152 here in about 2 weeks. Then will finally get started. Only took a few years also. And where is the build for the ZOD speaker? LOL

Luke any more impressions with this IPAL woofer? Pushed it to 40mm P-P yet?
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:47 AM
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ZOD woofer is the Ipal. I scaled some parameters to keep it from being immediately obvious. A few still figured it out. Originally was asked not to say too much publicly about them but now it seems as if they are not too hard for anyone with a bit of tenacity to get, so I don't see a reason to keep it mum anymore. People are obviously getting them.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:17 AM
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I almost got a pair of the IPAL 18's from 18 Sound. Decided on the 152 instead for now. We'll see if the BC is possible down the road. Looking forward to your amp also.

I will be buying a SP-12000 next year for sub duties but very interested in seeing what the IPAL mod from PS does.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:28 AM
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ZOD woofer is the Ipal. I scaled some parameters to keep it from being immediately obvious. A few still figured it out. Originally was asked not to say too much publicly about them but now it seems as if they are not too hard for anyone with a bit of tenacity to get, so I don't see a reason to keep it mum anymore. People are obviously getting them.
You dirty dog
How'd I miss that?
I spent many a night on "the google's" looking for a manufacturer by the name of 'ZOD'
Nice one...
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally was asked not to say too much publicly about them but now it seems as if they are not too hard for anyone with a bit of tenacity to get, so I don't see a reason to keep it mum anymore. People are obviously getting them.
Actually, not so...
Check your PM
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Old 11-02-2014, 08:33 AM
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I almost got a pair of the IPAL 18's from 18 Sound. Decided on the 152 instead for now. We'll see if the BC is possible down the road. Looking forward to your amp also.

I will be buying a SP-12000 next year for sub duties but very interested in seeing what the IPAL mod from PS does.
The 18sound Ipals I would skip. They have extra motor force but I do not believe the gap/ top plate/ coil wind height of the motors are any different from the 9600 series which would mean that they have higher force but no more linear excursion than the regular 9600's so you may as well just save some money and get those. If I remember right the coil overhang on the 18sounds is only 10mm. The B&C drivers were developed for many years and apparently much of that tech was trickled down and into the SW series not the other way around. I have nothing against 18sounds at all they make a fine product but it looks like they felt like they needed an answer to the B&C woofers quick so they tried to beef up their current top driver platform a bit to do it, where the B&C's were pretty much a ground up effort.
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:04 AM
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How much does the new IPAL speaker cost?
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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How much does the new IPAL speaker cost?
A little over $1,100 after shipping.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:22 AM
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Did it make a noticeable difference? Hit harder?
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I just want to remind anyone reading about the 21ipal:

IT'S 1 OHM!

That's going to cause major problems for a lot of amplifiers, such as early clipping, power cycles, thermal protection, low impedance protection, etc.

I didn't know how the SpeakerPower amp would handle the load, so this was more of an experiment, and I had already accepted full well that it could have been an epic fail.

Last edited by lukeamdman; 11-02-2014 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Did it make a noticeable difference? Hit harder?
The differences are subtle, and it requires more EQ, but I like it better. It obviously gets louder and therefore hits harder, but the 21sw152 left nothing lacking.

I wasn't after an upgrade, but the geek in me just couldn't pass it up.
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Old 11-02-2014, 11:54 AM
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I just want to remind anyone reading about the 21ipal:

IT'S 1 OHM!

That's going to cause major problems for a lot of amplifiers, such as early clipping, power cycles, thermal protection, low impedance protection, etc.

I didn't know how the SpeakerPower amp would handle the load, so this was more of an experiment, and I had already accepted full well that it could have been an epic fail.
One of the ways manufacturers who pay attention get a lot more from an amp is ignoring any "nominal" ratings and look straight to the DCR and in-box impedance of a design. I've seen "4 Ohm" drivers with DCRs ranging from 2.7-4.3 Ohm. It's all about how it's used. This is also a benefit most grossly underestimate in IB solutions, where the system Fb is so low and often leaves a huge impedance peak that doesn't come back close to DCR until the single digit Hz range.

A horn that provides some loading often yields an impedance that is significantly higher than DCR for most of the operating range. Acoustically small horns often have a dip or 2, but still on average are higher impedance than the DCR. I have heard of a few using the SpeakerPower amps to drive IPAL woofers. If you have the DCR and in-box impedance you can get a good idea of how it will do.

The good thing is the amp won't care what load you connect, nor will it likely ever be damaged by a load. The factory burn-in for the amplifiers basically drives a near shorted load that is mechanically attached to the amplifier plate to basically heat itself driving the load and the internal heat generated.

With a reasonably stiff power line, you won't see any sag all the way to around a 1.5 Ohm minimum impedance. Below there you will see some current limiting and reduced maximum power, but it will still work just fine. When I was testing a dual 2 Ohm HS24 with coils paralleled, I left too little time between test runs with a 12-14Hz sine wave in a smaller sealed box, and the SP4k melted the wire right off the former driving the 1-1.5 Ohm impedance.

About the only caution with low impedance loads and raised in-box impedance is to remember that as BL and Cms changes with excursion/power, your impedance curve changes too. IOW, the big bump from high BL drops with the BL curve. Often this can create an accelerated clipping condition once you get to high excursion points on current limited amps.

The high Voltage 3000/6000/12000 models will actually regulate Voltage a little better up until the line Voltage sags somewhere below 200V AC, so until your line sags below that point, the output power remains constant.
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
One of the ways manufacturers who pay attention get a lot more from an amp is ignoring any "nominal" ratings and look straight to the DCR and in-box impedance of a design. I've seen "4 Ohm" drivers with DCRs ranging from 2.7-4.3 Ohm. It's all about how it's used. This is also a benefit most grossly underestimate in IB solutions, where the system Fb is so low and often leaves a huge impedance peak that doesn't come back close to DCR until the single digit Hz range.

A horn that provides some loading often yields an impedance that is significantly higher than DCR for most of the operating range. Acoustically small horns often have a dip or 2, but still on average are higher impedance than the DCR. I have heard of a few using the SpeakerPower amps to drive IPAL woofers. If you have the DCR and in-box impedance you can get a good idea of how it will do.

The good thing is the amp won't care what load you connect, nor will it likely ever be damaged by a load. The factory burn-in for the amplifiers basically drives a near shorted load that is mechanically attached to the amplifier plate to basically heat itself driving the load and the internal heat generated.

With a reasonably stiff power line, you won't see any sag all the way to around a 1.5 Ohm minimum impedance. Below there you will see some current limiting and reduced maximum power, but it will still work just fine. When I was testing a dual 2 Ohm HS24 with coils paralleled, I left too little time between test runs with a 12-14Hz sine wave in a smaller sealed box, and the SP4k melted the wire right off the former driving the 1-1.5 Ohm impedance.

About the only caution with low impedance loads and raised in-box impedance is to remember that as BL and Cms changes with excursion/power, your impedance curve changes too. IOW, the big bump from high BL drops with the BL curve. Often this can create an accelerated clipping condition once you get to high excursion points on current limited amps.

The high Voltage 3000/6000/12000 models will actually regulate Voltage a little better up until the line Voltage sags somewhere below 200V AC, so until your line sags below that point, the output power remains constant.
Excellent information, Mark!

From Josh's testing, around the cabinet tune, the impedance was at or just above 1ohm, but not by much.

My horns are tuned to 28hz, so I spent some time hammering the subs at 30hz and 25hz at ~135db levels for 10+ solid minutes and only once got the fans to turn on at a low speed.

So far my AC has been solid with no issues with voltage drop, and I have the amp on a dedicated 30A 240v line to make sure the amp has what it needs.
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Excellent information, Mark!

From Josh's testing, around the cabinet tune, the impedance was at or just above 1ohm, but not by much.

My horns are tuned to 28hz, so I spent some time hammering the subs at 30hz and 25hz at ~135db levels for 10+ solid minutes and only once got the fans to turn on at a low speed.

So far my AC has been solid with no issues with voltage drop, and I have the amp on a dedicated 30A 240v line to make sure the amp has what it needs.
While higher current breakers require heavier wire per code, sag on a line has more to do with resistance than breaker size. Remember that until a breaker trips and you have to reset it, it does nothing to the power flow. For 2x the distance of power run, you have 2x the loss, or you need to bump up ~3 wire sizes to have the same loss at 2x the distance. For longer runs it can be useful to up-size the wire used in the wall. This is again where high Voltage operation helps as you get 1/2 the loss across the wire for the same power delivery (assuming wire size is the same).

If you're curious if there's much sag, grab a dimmable lamp and set it so it's at a mid-low light level and watch to see how much the light dims as the bass hits. That dimming comes from sagging Voltage. You can of course also just connect a Voltmeter to the power line you are monitoring and watch the meter dance.

If the impedance only dips to 1 Ohm over a small range, over the wider bandwidth the current draw is likely much less than a nominal 1 Ohm and should be find for most cases. Fortunately with the SpeakerPower amp you don't need to worry about it causing any damage, and you get the higher sensitivity over the rest of the range as a benefit.

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Old 11-02-2014, 01:30 PM
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Mark makes very valid points. Also the typical job the 21 would be employed to do would be bandwidth limited in a horn or bass reflex alignment with a protective high pass and low pass added so much of the impedance will be well above the dcr of the driver. My cause for concern is for testing where I will be driving it to the absolute limits with sine waves and worst case signals. I also wish to try them in small sealed designs where the low end will not be filtered and the amplifier will be tasked with full power into frequencies below 16Hz. The impedance is going to be quite low in that range and I worry about full power dumping into this load at 10Hz and below.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
I just want to remind anyone reading about the 21ipal:

IT'S 1 OHM!

That's going to cause major problems for a lot of amplifiers, such as early clipping, power cycles, thermal protection, low impedance protection, etc.

I didn't know how the SpeakerPower amp would handle the load, so this was more of an experiment, and I had already accepted full well that it could have been an epic fail.
That's why you need four of them, so you can wire them in series.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:39 PM
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Luke thanks for this experiment. Glad to see your also on a 240 line as I will be also.

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Old 11-02-2014, 07:01 PM
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so would 4 othorns sound better than the 2 gh and 2 othorns that you have? I know when I went to Danley and heard their big subs it didn't matter to me that they only went down to like 26 htz because they had so much force that everything shook including your organs.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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so would 4 othorns sound better than the 2 gh and 2 othorns that you have? I know when I went to Danley and heard their big subs it didn't matter to me that they only went down to like 26 htz because they had so much force that everything shook including your organs.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:48 PM
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Luke I forgot to ask were you running a Hpass when you did the sweep earlier in this thread?

It showed you were hitting close to 16hz or so in your room?

I am not saying that these subs are meant to hit that low in regards to what you just posted more like curious what you did in that post earlier. I know the Ghorn does much better that low.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Luke I forgot to ask were you running a Hpass when you did the sweep earlier in this thread?

It showed you were hitting close to 16hz or so in your room?

I am not saying that these subs are meant to hit that low in regards to what you just posted more like curious what you did in that post earlier. I know the Ghorn does much better that low.
That sweep was with the Ghorns running. The Ghorns have a sharp 13hz filter on them.
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:54 PM
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oh ya.....duhh... Sorry about that.
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:18 PM
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So Luke have you pushed these to 50mm P-P yet?

Just found out also that I can get one from my local dealer..........AWESOME.
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