Tell Me If Um Just Wrong OR Completely Crosseyed!!!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a certain confusion strictly speaking in terms of bass management and subwoofer pre output voltage. This is what I think happens during signal processing inside AVR. I may be completely wrong but I need input as to how LFE is handled in the AVR and finally in the pro amp.

1. Signal fed from source (DVD/Bluray/Media Player) through HDMI connection.
2. Reciever takes the input signal and relays it to its preamp.
3. Preamp does following;
- DAC and channel seperation
- Checks if the input signal is greater than 0dBFS. Signals greater than 0dBFS are clipped.
- Boost LFE by 10dB + extra x number of dB of redirected bass from all five channels, resultingly jacking up the bass signal by (10+x) dB.
- Sends the signal to amplification stage, which translates it to the corresponding voltage to be fed into outboard pro amp.
- The amplification stage within the preamp does ADC and sends the corresponding signal to power amp.
4. Power amp does DAC and checks for signal greater than 0dBFS. If greater, it simply clips the input signal and sends the remaining signal for final amplification to be played back by the sub.

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post #2 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 06:11 AM
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I don't think that the preamp just adds dB to the LFE from other channels. I thought it actually mixes the signal in. I don't think it "checks" if it's clipped, as signals less than 0 dbFS can be clipped. It would depend on the preamp but I think most don't have clipping protection? I might be wrong.
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post #3 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 
- Checks if the input signal is greater than 0dBFS. Signals greater than 0dBFS are clipped.
- The amplification stage within the preamp does ADC and sends the corresponding signal to power amp.
4. Power amp does DAC and checks for signal greater than 0dBFS. If greater, it simply clips the input signal and sends the remaining signal for final amplification to be played back by the sub.
The preamp won't check if the input signal is greater than 0dbfs since there won't be such a signal. The AVR is decoding the audio and it will never be over 0dbfs.
The preamp section in a receiver doesn't do any ADC. ADC isn't need since the signal is already digital. It will do DAC and send to the amplifier as analog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

I don't think that the preamp just adds dB to the LFE from other channels.
Mixing the signal in adds dB to the LFE electrically the same way it does acoustically.
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post #4 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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My dilemma is.....if LFE is not recorded on the media 10dB hotter than the other channels, then where does the addition of extra 10dB happen? Um sure it happens inside the AVR. But if it does and avr pumps out 0dBFS+10dB hotter LFE + x number dBs of redirected bass from 5 channels, it clearly pushes the bass frequencies way above 105dB during peaks.
In this case, anything greater than 105dB simply gets clipped. How do people achieve SPL 120dB+ through subs??

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post #5 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 07:51 AM
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People get 120db by having enough subs and enough power that they can turn it up "louder" than reference.

A more technical explanation.
Bits are encoded on a disk, processed by the DSP, and sent to a DAC/preamp. At max, that signal is at -0db, which might be 1-2v. That signal gets sent to the sub amp with a 36-48x voltage gain. Fort those folks getting >115db output, they have another pre/pro between the preamp and power amp that manipulate and boost the signal, maybe even to 3-4v. Now with that same fixed gain structure of the power amps, they're able to send enough power to the subs to surpass 115db.

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post #6 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 08:33 AM
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The subwoofer output in an AVR has an extra opamp in the signal chain that boost the voltage. Most pro amps only need .775 to 2 volts for maximum output so any AVR should provide enough voltage to drive the amp to full output.

Output of 115 dB from the subwoofers is when your system is calibrated to Reference Level and you have enough displacement and amplification for the output. The efficiency of the speakers and the signal chain will determine how much over Reference Level you can go. At the recent Iowa GTG I played with a full JTR speaker system (Noesis 212HT, Noesis 228HT, and dual S2 subs). This system was so efficient that I had enough signal and amplifier headroom for 130 dB from each speaker and both subs combined.
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post #7 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 10:59 AM
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It goes like this:
HDMI In (digital)
HD Decoded, usually resampled to 16b/44khz(if your are unlucky with a cheap AVR, or perhaps 24-96/192 for the more expensive AVRs) and DSP is applied, LFE channel mixing and boosting. (Still digital)

and then either:
DAC
Preamp

or AES out

Nowhere is there an ADC, except maybe inside the amps that have DSP capabilities (nu's, XTI's etc) and ONLY on their non-digital inputs.
For AES, it uses the DAC, Preamp circuit inside each amp.



People getting 120db+ have an array of 18" subs and an array of high-power amps or very efficient gear; or both.

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post #8 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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So, basically what I get from all your posts is that in order to get the sub SPL anything greater than 105dB (0dBFS) in any system is either by adding more subs OR using highly efficient drivers. I think high efficiency drivers is the cheaper route than to make up for SPL with multiple low efficiency drivers.

The trouble is the part of the world I live in, either we get some of the very high end and expesive subs like Velodyne, REL, JM Labs....OR nothing at all for DIY purposes. Going with mutiple RELs and all costs an arm and leg here. So DIY is the only route to the kind of bass I like.

What are some of the popular high efficiency drivers for DIY project?

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post #9 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Mixing the signal in adds dB to the LFE electrically the same way it does acoustically.

Could you explain it further? I didn't get it.

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post #10 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 12:29 PM
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"So, basically what I get from all your posts is that in order to get the sub SPL anything greater than 105dB (0dBFS) in any system is either by adding more subs OR using highly efficient drivers. "

this isn't right.

if you calibrate your system to reference, the test signal to the sub will send it enough juice to play 115db
when the lfe content hits 0dbfs.

if you are re-routing your bass, the signal going to the sub will be higher.

only if your electronics are crappy will the additional bass cause the signal to clip in the summation process.

only if your amp can't handle the higher demands of the re-routed bass will the bass amp clip.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #11 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

So, basically what I get from all your posts is that in order to get the sub SPL anything greater than 105dB (0dBFS) in any system is either by adding more subs OR using highly efficient drivers. I think high efficiency drivers is the cheaper route than to make up for SPL with multiple low efficiency drivers.

The trouble is the part of the world I live in, either we get some of the very high end and expesive subs like Velodyne, REL, JM Labs....OR nothing at all for DIY purposes. Going with mutiple RELs and all costs an arm and leg here. So DIY is the only route to the kind of bass I like.

What are some of the popular high efficiency drivers for DIY project?

The OP is completely lost and I don't think anyone who has replied so far understands his confusion.

He is confusing the transfer function of the system with the actual output. +10dB in the LFE channel is the transfer function. That simply means it is 10dB hotter than the other channels. It has NOTHING to do with what is actually output into the subwoofer besides being the transfer function...
Speakers are passive devices. People often get confused with electronics in thinking everything is active or smart. There is NO logic function that occurs in speakers. Nothing is translated, it is simply passive.

If you learn what a transfer function is and how it works, you'll understand the answer to your question.

Hint:
I can have 130dB output from any speaker without adding any dB in the AVR.
I can have 130dB from subwoofers (given enough subwoofers ie. the Matterhorn) even with -10dB in the AVR.
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post #12 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Could you explain it further? I didn't get it.
Lets say you decide to have a crossover of 80 Hz for all your speakers. If you didn't use the crossover, then all speakers could be playing content from 20 Hz to 80 Hz, for example. If there is content in this range, each speaker is contributing to the overall volume. There are several online calculators for calculating how much louder it gets when you add the volume levels of each speaker. If the subwoofer is producing 90 dB from 20-80 Hz and the other 7 speakers are producing 80 dB from 20-80Hz, then the overall volume for this range would be 100 dB if the bass is coherent or in phase.

When you use the crossover, the rerouted bass still increases the db level of the final bass output to the subwoofer. This is done electrically by changing the voltage. Ideally the subwoofer with the re-routed bass would produce the same in-room SPL as a 7.1 system with no bass management.

So whether you have more speakers contributing to the SPL level (acoustic) or your have re-routed the bass using bass management (electrical), the end result is that the SPL has increased.
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post #13 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"So, basically what I get from all your posts is that in order to get the sub SPL anything greater than 105dB (0dBFS) in any system is either by adding more subs OR using highly efficient drivers. "

this isn't right.

if you calibrate your system to reference, the test signal to the sub will send it enough juice to play 115db
when the lfe content hits 0dbfs.

if you are re-routing your bass, the signal going to the sub will be higher.

only if your electronics are crappy will the additional bass cause the signal to clip in the summation process.

only if your amp can't handle the higher demands of the re-routed bass will the bass amp clip.

Some people are saying anything over 0dBFS simply gets clipped. You are of the contrary opinion. Um sorry but um not getting it. What is 0dBFS for LFE? I think it is 115dB. If LFE is not recorded 10dB higher in the movies, where is this compensated then and how does it pass through 105dB peak barrier to reach the final amplification stage to be played back by the sub at 115dB assuming redirected bass is zero?

Do you think, in my case, Denon 3313 and iNuke 6000dsp are crappy signal processor and amplifier, respectively?

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post #14 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Some people are saying anything over 0dBFS simply gets clipped. You are of the contrary opinion. Um sorry but um not getting it. What is 0dBFS for LFE? I think it is 115dB. If LFE is not recorded 10dB higher in the movies, where is this compensated then and how does it pass through 105dB peak barrier to reach the final amplification stage to be played back by the sub at 115dB assuming redirected bass is zero?

Do you think, in my case, Denon 3313 and iNuke 6000dsp are crappy signal processor and amplifier, respectively?

Read my post. You are completely confused.
All sound material is recorded with a reference dB that we call 0dB. This is merely a reference and has nothing to do with any peak barrier or whatever you call it.
Anything before the amp stage has no clue what the output dB is going to be. Electronics are not magical devices that can talk to each other and know what the end result will be...
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post #15 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 01:23 PM
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There are at least 3 ways of increasing the subwoofer level by +10.
  1. The AVR uses an opamp on the subwoofer output circuit to increase the voltage. Essentially it is like adding an extra preamp just for the sub.
  2. Some AVR's might just lower the level of all other channels.
  3. If you use a computer to decode, then you typically just increase the volume level using the sub's amplifier. This is basically the way movie theaters handle it.

I not completely sure, but I think the AVR will reduce the volume of other channels to account for the increased volume on the subwoofer output when using bass management. The same thing happens when you adjust for levels in an AVR. It should just use the relative differences among channels and keep the loudest channel as 0dbfs. I'm not sure if all of them are this smart, though.

I don't have an AVR, but if you set all channels to -12 then it should sound the same as if you set all channels to +12. In other words, no volume changes really need to be made since they are all set to the same level.
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post #16 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

+10dB in the LFE channel is the transfer function. That simply means it is 10dB hotter than the other channels. It has NOTHING to do with what is actually output into the subwoofer besides being the transfer function...
Speakers are passive devices. People often get confused with electronics in thinking everything is active or smart. There is NO logic function that occurs in speakers. Nothing is translated, it is simply passive.

If you learn what a transfer function is and how it works, you'll understand the answer to your question.

Hint:
I can have 130dB output from any speaker without adding any dB in the AVR.
I can have 130dB from subwoofers (given enough subwoofers ie. the Matterhorn) even with -10dB in the AVR.

Again, my original question......you say LFE is 10dB hotter than the other channels. So, is it recorded on the bluray/dvd 10dB hotter or not? And I know a speaker is a passive device, even a powered sub is a passive device logically.

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post #17 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Again, my original question......you say LFE is 10dB hotter than the other channels. So, is it recorded on the bluray/dvd 10dB hotter or not? And I know a speaker is a passive device, even a powered sub is a passive device logically.

The answer is it could be. There is no 1 answer because it depends on the individual bluray/dvd.
You would have to check the bluray to confirm for certain. I am guessing that most are not since many of us boost our LFE channels by +10. If the original content already had +10db, the net would be +20db in the LFE.

Like Desertdome said, even if the LFE has +10db, it really is 0db and the rest are -10db. It's all based on a reference level and relative to each other.
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post #18 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I think nobody is sure about the LFE myth. I posted a somewhat similar question in Recievers and Amps section some time back and I was told LFE is NOT mixed 10dB hotter in the movies. It is at the same level as other channels on DVDs and Blurays and 10dB compensation to LFE is applied in the AVR automatically to make it 10dB hotter relative to all the other channels.

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post #19 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Again, my original question......you say LFE is 10dB hotter than the other channels. So, is it recorded on the bluray/dvd 10dB hotter or not?
No.
The additional 10dB is typically added post DAC by an opamp. I did the image below for something else, but look at the bottom of the handle and move right slightly. See the added triangle there? That's in the LFE signal chain and the opamp adds 10dB and it is not present in any of the other channels. This is from the service manual of my Onkyo AVR and is similar for many of the other manuals I have. Some may do the 10dB difference by attenuating all the other channels in the digital domain by 10dB, but I have not seen it done this way to date.

onkyo2_crop.jpg
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post #20 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

. . . I was told LFE is NOT mixed 10dB hotter in the movies. It is at the same level as other channels on DVDs and Blurays and 10dB compensation to LFE is applied in the AVR automatically to make it 10dB hotter relative to all the other channels.
Correct, and I gave 3 methods earlier of increasing the level by 10dB. A9X-308 confirmed the method used by AVRs in his post.
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post #21 of 23 Old 06-07-2013, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

No.
The additional 10dB is typically added post DAC by an opamp. I did the image below for something else, but look at the bottom of the handle and move right slightly. See the added triangle there? That's in the LFE signal chain and the opamp adds 10dB and it is not present in any of the other channels. This is from the service manual of my Onkyo AVR and is similar for many of the other manuals I have. Some may do the 10dB difference by attenuating all the other channels in the digital domain by 10dB, but I have not seen it done this way to date.

onkyo2_crop.jpg

Thanx and I think it is the most logical explanation similar to what desertdome wrote. Which avr do you have, I mean the model number?? I want to see the full image of the circuit diagram. The LFE section is barely visible.

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post #22 of 23 Old 06-08-2013, 02:49 AM
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I am doing some renovations at the moment, and my network and server/storage are offline, which is why I posted that old pic (still on photobucket). There is nothing more to see really; below the bottom of the pic is a voltage out DAC circa 1Vrms at 0dBFS, buffer opamp for all channels and a 10x opamp (4580 irc) for the LFE, which then drives the pre outs and te internal power amps. AVR is Onkyo TX SR707. Below is the rest of the block diagram.

Onkyoblockdiagram_crop.jpg
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post #23 of 23 Old 06-08-2013, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanx loads.

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