Power conditioner/surge protector - AVS Forum
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know if this is the right forum but I need some advice.

After my little town had a brown out making all of my equipment making popping noises and then shutting off, I realized it was time to get a better surge protector than a $6 Wal-mart surge protector. I would like at least 10 plugs on it and my max budget is $250. I have seen some that have a plug on the front which would be pretty nice but not a requirmennt. If it matters my equipment that will be plugging into it are as follows.

1.)52" sharp aquos
2.)PS3
3.)mini dsp
4.) disn network DVR
5.) PS3 remote charger
6.)yahmaha rxa-2000
7.)inuke 6000
8.)wireless router


I will be adding a xpa5 soon.


Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 06-15-2013, 02:12 AM
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A surge protector isn't going to help you in a brown out. A UPS of sufficient capacity would at least allow you to turn things off before they make noises, but the noise isn't likely to damage anything, nor is the undervoltage caused by the brown out.

A surge arrestor protects againt over voltage situations, and a good one is a worthwhile investment. A whole house unit connected at the switchboard is the best.
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Old 06-15-2013, 08:06 AM
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I have a Furman F1000 UPS for sale. It's like new (I connected power to it to charge the battery). I will take $250 + actual shippinng. Let me know if you are interested.
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Old 06-15-2013, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

A surge protector isn't going to help you in a brown out. A UPS of sufficient capacity would at least allow you to turn things off before they make noises, but the noise isn't likely to damage anything, nor is the undervoltage caused by the brown out.
+1. As for a UPS, unless you're willing to spend at least $500 you won't be able to get one capable of handling high current devices, like amplifiers. Even then it's dicey; many amp manufacturers specifically state not to use any devices between the amp and the wall outlet.

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Old 06-15-2013, 09:04 AM
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I'd agree with Bill. I'm running a Monster HTPS2700 which I've been happy with. That being said, I'm only running my SMS1's and projector through it. I wouldn't trust running any of my amps off it.

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Old 06-15-2013, 10:00 AM
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UPS's in HT's are a waste of money IMO, sudden shutoffs in your gear wont hurt anything. If you get a surge protector, get something like a Belkin FP60 (they go on sale for $125 all the time and are really well made units) and plug all your stuff into it. Emotiva wants you to plug everything directly into the wall but theres nothing to stop you from trying it in whatever protector you get.

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Old 06-15-2013, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

UPS's in HT's are a waste of money IMO, sudden shutoffs in your gear wont hurt anything.

I definitely disagree with you here. First off, my SMS1's when powered on after my receiver is on it creates a nasty turn on thump, which I'm sure isn't good for anything.

Secondly, powering down a projector without allowing the fan to continue to run can create premature bulb failure, or worse, a bulb explosion.

Just because your particular setup doesn't lend to a UPS, doesn't mean it's a waste of money in someone elses. wink.gif

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Old 06-15-2013, 11:49 AM
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Well, I did say " IMO" as you can see in your quote and never said it was a rule for everyone, there will always be some exceptions.
Also who has their projector on the same ups/surge as their HT gear? Your thud is nothing more than a annoyance, it won't hurt your system.

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Old 06-15-2013, 12:18 PM
 
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Not a UPS but what I use...Never an issue with it in the years I've owned it.
http://www.amazon.com/APC-H15BLK-12-Outlet-Rack-Mountable-Conditioner/dp/B000FBF08Q
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Also who has their projector on the same ups/surge as their HT gear?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. FYI, I do. wink.gif You said they were a waste of money, "IYO"; which I don't agree with. If you like buying extra bulbs then cool. cool.gif

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Old 06-15-2013, 04:56 PM
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Hi BassAdict,
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Secondly, powering down a projector without allowing the fan to continue to run can create premature bulb failure, or worse, a bulb explosion.
Just an FYI:

Having the fan run after the bulb is turned off is more to protect the projector optics rather than the bulb. The bulb is as hot as it is going to get when it goes off, but the bulb's heat will continue to radiate into its surroundings. If the fan goes off at the same time as the bulb, the surrounding optics get hotter as the bulb cools. The fan continues to remove the heat from the bulb after the bulb is off so that the optics won't get any hotter.
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Old 06-15-2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Having the fan run after the bulb is turned off is more to protect the projector optics rather than the bulb
The bulb would be happier if it cooled down without the fan. The fan running after the bulb is off is definitely to protect something other than the bulb.
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Old 06-15-2013, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

...who has their projector on the same ups/surge as their HT gear?.
Well, anyone who relies on a whole-house surge protective device has all their gear on it. And I have seen installations where the projector connects to the same UPS or surge protective device as the rest of the system. Some people use something like PowerBridge to do it.

For effective protection with MOV-based surge protective devices, all connected gear needs to be connected to the same surge protective device, or all ports connected between devices on separate surge protective devices have to be protected. Using a separate MOV-based surge protective device for the projector is problematic when using HDMI to connect to the source gear. There is no effective surge protective device for HDMI. The operation of the surge protective devices can result in different ground references at the two ends of the HDMI cable resulting in damage.
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Hi BassAdict,
Just an FYI:

Having the fan run after the bulb is turned off is more to protect the projector optics rather than the bulb. The bulb is as hot as it is going to get when it goes off, but the bulb's heat will continue to radiate into its surroundings. If the fan goes off at the same time as the bulb, the surrounding optics get hotter as the bulb cools. The fan continues to remove the heat from the bulb after the bulb is off so that the optics won't get any hotter.

Probably, but in one of my pj owners manual, it specifically stated what I relayed. Regardless, I agree that when the power goes out, you're much better served having the fan running than not. smile.gif

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Old 06-15-2013, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Well, anyone who relies on a whole-house surge protective device has all their gear on it. And I have seen installations where the projector connects to the same UPS or surge protective device as the rest of the system. Some people use something like PowerBridge to do it.

For effective protection with MOV-based surge protective devices, all connected gear needs to be connected to the same surge protective device, or all ports connected between devices on separate surge protective devices have to be protected. Using a separate MOV-based surge protective device for the projector is problematic when using HDMI to connect to the source gear. There is no effective surge protective device for HDMI. The operation of the surge protective devices can result in different ground references at the two ends of the HDMI cable resulting in damage.

There is no doubt the "some" people will have a setup like that but it's not normal and 99% of guys won't have a whole house system installed (though it is a good idea) Whole home units aside, the OP is asking about a monster or similar device, not a whole home unit. If he's that worried about projector (which he doesn't even have) then he can buy whatever he wants. In his case and in most other people cases, a good surge protector or surge/voltage unit like the APC's are most than enough and a UPS is a complete waste of money other than in a few select cases. Sure a few guys may have this and that but they are not the norm, they are the outsiders looking in on these forums.

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Old 06-16-2013, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

a UPS is a complete waste of money other than in a few select cases.
+1. The UPS didn't exist prior to the PC, and it's original purpose was to allow a PC user time to shut the system down safely in case of a power failure. Not content with selling them just to PC owners their manufacturers market them to HT owners as well, but they're of no real benefit. Not even to projector owners, if they were the movie industry would have adopted them in the 1920s. Their manufacture is a relatively recent development, but the technology isn't.

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Old 06-16-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. The UPS didn't exist prior to the PC, and it's original purpose was to allow a PC user time to shut the system down safely in case of a power failure. Not content with selling them just to PC owners their manufacturers market them to HT owners as well, but they're of no real benefit. Not even to projector owners, if they were the movie industry would have adopted them in the 1920s. Their manufacture is a relatively recent development, but the technology isn't.

Bill, I didn't realize you were an expert on pj optics also. wink.gif

Pj Mfgs have adopted it. When you power down the pj the fan continues to run. If it wasnt important why would they bother to do it.

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Old 06-16-2013, 12:05 PM
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I've got a UPS in the primary family HT rig, ... and it's likely the single most important piece of gear in the system.

I've got it backing up the Motorola DVR from Comcast, it assures continuity of whatever program is being recorded. As one could imagine, that makes it clearly the single most important component of the entire rig. Believe me, if a critical moment in Pretty Little Liars takes a hit due to a power blip of any duration, ... it's a big deal. eek.gif

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Also who has their projector on the same ups/surge as their HT gear?

I do.
But my UPS/Conditioner is $3000, weighs 100lbs, and can handle a full 15amp load in pure-sinewave mode @ 0.1% THD for 6 minutes; but I'm only putting a 3-4amp load on it, which would hold for 30minutes.

It's protecting $10k worth of electronics, which is the upstream for another $25k worth of amps and speakers, so...
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:08 PM
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If it wasnt important why would they bother to do it.
I can give you one reason. Small projectors like these were initially used mostly as portable presentation devices. The devices were often packed up immediately after the end of the presentation. The quartz envelope of the high pressure bulb is extremely fragile when it is hot. Letting the fan run after the bulb is off until it has reached a safe temperature and telling the operator not to move the projector until the fan stops cuts down on broken bulbs. But the bulb would still be happier to just be left alone to cool down by itself. Also, restriking the lamp is easier with a cool bulb than a hot one. Losing power once, or even several times, isn't going to measurabye reduce the life of the bulb. Bulb life basically comes down to the number of strikes. I have worked with all kinds of projects in classrooms, auditoriums, and residences over the years. More than once the projector has been shut down without waiting, because somebody kicked out a cord, a power failure, or I just wanted to get out of there faster. I have never experienced a failure or noticeable reduction in bulb life.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

...the OP is asking about a monster or similar device, not a whole home unit.
The first paragraph was simply a response to your question. If you don't want the response, don't ask the question. It is funny that you are ranting about projectors when you brought the subject up.

The second paragraph is germain to anyone who is considering using point-of-use devices. It sounds like you might benefit from going back and reading it carefully.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:45 AM
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Instead of me telling anyone what they should do, let me tell you what I do.

I use a UPS for my entertainment center (minus subwoofer amp) because when the power goes out, even for an instant, or there are brown outs, i want to protect the majority of my equipment in that location from under and over voltage. Additionally in some emergency (hurricane sandy) I can charge phones off of the ups and turn on the tv and watch broadcast TV for extended outages. I additionally keep charged car batteries and power inverters in my garage for the same purpose, in-case of extended outages.

I have a cyber-power ups (more than a few in fact for computers around the house) and a bunch of tripplite surge protectors around the house for anything worth protecting.

The surge protectors protect things that don't need power in an outage, microwaves, fridges, fish tanks, laptop and cell chargers, printers, scanners, older stereo equipment, bedroom tv's and cable boxes, washing machine, dryer, etc.
Surge protection is for things i would like to avoid replacing if lightening strikes across town or if a voltage spike comes down the line.

UPS is for things I want to be able to power on for short periods in outages and offer a slightly higher degree of protection for momentary blips in the power supply.
Some UPS models will bump up voltage during low line voltage conditions and bump down voltage during high line level conditions. for the most sensitive equipment that may be worth while.

I only keep powerful amps on good surge protection because they can easily draw enough power to overwhelm the standard UPS systems out there.

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-ULTRABLOK-Protector-Suppressor/dp/B00006B81D/ref=sr_1_11?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1371544319&sr=1-11&keywords=tripp+lite+surge+protector

above is the surge protector I use for my entertainment center. I have my sub amp plugged into the bottom outlet and the UPS plugged into the top one.

http://www.amazon.com/TRIPP-SPIKECUBE-Surge-Direct-Outlet/dp/B00859775Y/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1371544892&sr=1-3&keywords=tripp+lite

I have a bunch of these for other appliances and devices.

Note that most come with insurance for any items that don't get protected from a surge.

3 things to remember about these devices:
1. if lightening strikes anything on your house or a pole on your street only luck will save your equipment. (I prefer renters insurance over luck)
2. Surge protectors are designed to absorb a voltage spike (usually triggered above 150v) by grounding the hot line and burning out. They don't last more than one strong spike typically.
3. The more surge protectors you have the better but I'm not going to get into the specifics of that on this thread.


Here is a good read on the devices that make surge protection work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor

Anyway. that's my 2 cents.

Feel free to ask questions or PM me.
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javi404 View Post

3 things to remember about these devices:
1. if lightening strikes anything on your house or a pole on your street only luck will save your equipment. (I prefer renters insurance over luck)
There are certainly cases where any sort of protection will be overwhelmed. And like you said, that is what insurance is for.
Quote:
2. Surge protectors...don't last more than one strong spike typically.
Pure BS. An appropriately sized MOV will last thousands of surges and many, many years. Worst case energy a point-of-use device with 30' or more wiring between it and the service entrance has to deal with is about 90J. Pick a surge protective device that will handle an order of magnitude larger than that and it will last a long, long time.
Quote:
3. The more surge protectors you have the better but I'm not going to get into the specifics of that on this thread.
True in a sense, I guess. But could get you into trouble if you a protecting devices that are interconnected by plugging them into separate surge protective devices.
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:39 PM
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Have a question for you guys and will appreciate your inputs...

I have a Panamax PM5400. Have connected my Processor, Amplifier, a 1000w Subwoofer, 70 inch TV, Dish NT box, and Oppo-103 DVD player.
Now I am getting a new 5-channel amplifier that has 250 wpc.
Though it is true that amp and Subwoofer will not run at peak power all the time, it will spike once in a while during high-sound Sci-Fi movies.
After reading that using two separate Surge protection devices will create conflict and/or other issues, what can I do to ensure that my system doesn't overload the power supply from a 15 ampere Panamax?
Will I hear the difference if there is a short supply of power to the amp or sub? I would like believe that it will sometimes hamper the amp/sub from producing optimum sound quality. Then again, I am not sure about this ...
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:39 PM
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Will I hear the difference if there is a short supply of power to the amp or sub?
You will. That's why the only thing amp manufacturers say about using power conditioners is don't use power conditioners. AFAIK not one amp manufacturer recommends using one, as all the power 'conditioning' required is done by the amp's own power supply.

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Old 06-23-2013, 10:14 AM
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Prosoft;
When examining the physics involved, amplification gear can pull extraordinarily high amounts of current from the wall, due to typical circuit breaker trip curve characteristics. To allow for the very high currents inherent to motor start up, etc, circuit breakers will pass enormous amounts of current past their normal rated size. For example, a 20 amp circuit can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more. It will allow up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so. And the same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

That's over 100amps for around 1-2 seconds, about 60amps for around 10 seconds, and the circuit will allow 30-40amps for as long as 30 seconds!

This is why voltage drop, and ample current delivery for instantaeneous peaks can be an issue. Up-size those amplifier/subwoofer circuits. Not the breaker size, the wiring. As we see above, the breaker isn't the limiting factor. So upsizing the wiring to 10awg (or more) can be beneficial.

Anyway, as always Bill gives good advice. You can hear a difference if there's a choke-point in current delivery. So for a power conditioning device not to be a choke-point, they've got to assure they offer a low impedance path to the wall current/voltage.

Short of a custom solution, there's only one mfd. piece I know of that could pass about the same amount of instantaneous current as a typical circuit (100amps or so) could. It's made by Torus.
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You will. That's why the only thing amp manufacturers say about using power conditioners is don't use power conditioners. AFAIK not one amp manufacturer recommends using one, as all the power 'conditioning' required is done by the amp's own power supply.


If any reputable mfr had a good overview of the situation it would be Bryston. They sell Bryston branded, Torus made, Plitron toroid equipped isolation units. If one could benefit from such isolation, these Torus/Plitron based units are the finest IMO. But like you, I've never even seen them recommend amps plugged into conditioning/isolation gear.

It's doable, but a tricky proposition done right. As you said, certainly not advisable.

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Old 06-24-2013, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosoft7 View Post

Will I hear the difference if there is a short supply of power to the amp or sub?
You will. That's why the only thing amp manufacturers say about using power conditioners is don't use power conditioners. AFAIK not one amp manufacturer recommends using one, as all the power 'conditioning' required is done by the amp's own power supply.

THIS (in bold).

A honkin' power supply transformer is the best power conditioner there is.

I use a Belkin PF30 for my ancillaries (TV, sources, etc.). My Arcam AVR300 runs straight to the wall.....the 1250KVA toroidal PS transformer has the line conditioning covered. I do have a whole house shunt-to-ground "surge protector" installed at the meter, but it has a relatively high clamping voltage so point of use surge protectors are employed throughout the house. I don't worry about my Arcam...in big lightning storms, I just unplug it.

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Old 06-24-2013, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Prosoft;
When examining the physics involved, amplification gear can pull extraordinarily high amounts of current from the wall, due to typical circuit breaker trip curve characteristics. To allow for the very high currents inherent to motor start up, etc, circuit breakers will pass enormous amounts of current past their normal rated size. For example, a 20 amp circuit can pass 7-8 times the rated 20amp trip amount, .. for up to a second or more. It will allow up to 3x the rated amount for up to 10sec or so. And the same 20amp circuit, can allow up to 1.5-2times the rated amount for a period extending as long as 30 seconds.

That's over 100amps for around 1-2 seconds, about 60amps for around 10 seconds, and the circuit will allow 30-40amps for as long as 30 seconds!

This is why voltage drop, and ample current delivery for instantaeneous peaks can be an issue. Up-size those amplifier/subwoofer circuits. Not the breaker size, the wiring. As we see above, the breaker isn't the limiting factor. So upsizing the wiring to 10awg (or more) can be beneficial.

Anyway, as always Bill gives good advice. You can hear a difference if there's a choke-point in current delivery. So for a power conditioning device not to be a choke-point, they've got to assure they offer a low impedance path to the wall current/voltage.

Short of a custom solution, there's only one mfd. piece I know of that could pass about the same amount of instantaneous current as a typical circuit (100amps or so) could. It's made by Torus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You will. That's why the only thing amp manufacturers say about using power conditioners is don't use power conditioners. AFAIK not one amp manufacturer recommends using one, as all the power 'conditioning' required is done by the amp's own power supply.


If any reputable mfr had a good overview of the situation it would be Bryston. They sell Bryston branded, Torus made, Plitron toroid equipped isolation units. If one could benefit from such isolation, these Torus/Plitron based units are the finest IMO. But like you, I've never even seen them recommend amps plugged into conditioning/isolation gear.

It's doable, but a tricky proposition done right. As you said, certainly not advisable.

Well said. As has been verified by a local electrician (he owns, runs, and founded an electrical contracting company in Orlando), if you're drawing say 13 amps from a 15 amp breaker, most people would be shocked to know the current losses just in the in-wall wiring due to a lack of wire thickness. This is seen as physical heating of the wires in the walls due to the resistance of the wire itself.

I've heard many people rec upgrading the CB to a 20 amp model....but, as you said FOH, that won't do much good if std awg wall wiring is left in place. It is worth the change to run a 10awg line from the box to the outlet that feeds the amp. The overall cost would be less than most are willing to pay for a fancy line conditioner, I'd imagine.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:02 AM
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Power handling is usually put into three categories:

1. Surge Protection
2. Conditioning
3. Backup

In most cases, it is easy to "combine" the above. Most MOV systems (e.g. #1) are "good" if designed right. If you live in a high lightning area (e.g. florida) you may care about this more than others.

If you live in an area with "goofy power" (e.g. high and low line conditions), then you need to look at voltage regulation.

If you live in an area with lots of "drop outs", then you may need to look at backup power (e.g. a UPS).

For most people...all you need is #1. Nearly all gear these days works okay with only surge protection. However, some "cheaper" gear will not survive bad power (e.g. #2) for extended periods of time. However, what usually kills homeowners on #2 is not "low line" but usually when the neutral gets lifted and 220V gets applied to a 110V input. This usually fries things like older TV's, light bulbs, refrigerators. However, most modern electronics auto switch on 110/220 thus the lifted neutral "usually" isn't fatal anymore. The only things I would put on a UPS is a PJ and any box where power interruption will result in false operation (e.g. a DVR)


As for surge protectors...I usually replace mine E VERY year except for my BrickWall (http://www.brickwall.com/) on my AV gear.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

.....the 1250KVA toroidal PS transformer has the line conditioning covered

How big is that transformer. I mean in excess of 1.25 MVA (Mega!) is huge! tongue.gif

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