1 inch CD Comparison (SEOS18) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

OP-can you tell us anything about how some of the 2" CD's have compared to these 1" CD's that you are testing? I am most curious about the Radian 950PB, (or 951PB 1.4"), the BMS4590, and maybe the JBL-2446? Is the main problem with using a 2" CD in a 2-way design, getting the 2" CD to extend upwards around 20khz? Are there any decent 2" CD's that will go up that high and also have the ability to crossover to a 15" woofer at say 700hz to 800hz?

I would personally like to see someone do a 3-way build using a 1" CD for the tweeter and then a 2" CD for the mid-range portion. I do, of course, realize that the crossover will be more complicated and could possibly sound worse due to the disadvantages of a 3-way versus a 2-way, but me personally, I would love to see some kind of 3-way build that uses something like a Radian 950PB for the mids, and an AE TD12x or TD15x, not sure which tweeter would be best, though.

I have the 2445s and the BMS4590. They are all excellent drivers. Midrange performance is truly amazing. For a low crossover, I would stick to around 600 Hz. Below that the woofer is outperforming the CD. Yes, there is some more control of directivity, but not much. Definitely not use the drivers as low as 300 Hz.

The main problem with a 2" CD is two-fold: like Penngray says, the size of the horn to get it working at 500 hz makes it impossible for the horn to control directivity up high. Well, you can still do it using a pinched throat horn, ala JBL, but it doesn't sound the best. So, the driver is beaming at 5 or 6 kHz and plus it is in breakup mode beyond that anyway. It's just a series of resonances taking it up to 15 kHz.

The range above 10 kHz doesn't have much music anyway. Just air and ambiance. But below 10 kHz there are vocal sibilants and other important sounds. I wouldn't ignore it. See this chart:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

It gives the frequency range of each instrument. At the bottom, it shows what subjective quality each range has. And as you hover over the ranges, there is interesting info in the side boxes. It's more for recording engineers, but it might help diagnose problems when doing diy.

Regarding three way, I've seen LeCleach do it with the Iwata horn. Woofer, small Iwata, large Iwata on top. But the crossover up high is very hard to integrate with the mid horn. There is time delay and CTC distance. It WILL be a comb filtered response.

Personally, I've decided to stick with the SEOS-18 (or 24 if it becomes available). And the next step is obviously the Synergies, where all these issues will go away. The only question I have about those is the smoothness of response.

People make a big deal about constant directivity and such. But what we are really most sensitive to is resonances. If you have a bumpy response, it doesn't sound nice. The response should be smooth. Some deviation from flat is ok, but it should be smooth. To get this smooth response, there are a number of issues to deal with. Baffle step, floor bounce, crossover, breakup, and more. Read Toole.
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post #92 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

FWIW, I spent several years trying to get the 1" driver to have a 700Hz XO but I never had ultimate success with it. I spent many, many hours online here and on DIYAudio/audiokarma, etc discussing/reading about all options. The only 1" driver that does it remotely well is the TAD TD-2001 and even then 700Hz is just too low of an XO point. This even includes Geddes designs (rave reviews) using the B&C DE250 and a XO just under 1KHz. My final test would have been to use the DEQX and a brick wall filter and a 300dB slope but at that time I found the TD-4001s gave me the sound that I loved so much and I just stopped searching.

The conlusion for me is a pretty simple one. Audio is all about compromises and how we minimize our compromises. Laws of physics simply get in the way of having one driver do it all for us.

Someday I might jump back in and buy a DEQX then I can start playing around again. Maybe even a Coral H100 super tweeter biggrin.gif

What about the BA-750?
Here's bwaslo's measurements.




http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=31.0
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post #93 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

OP-can you tell us anything about how some of the 2" CD's have compared to these 1" CD's that you are testing? I am most curious about the Radian 950PB, (or 951PB 1.4"), the BMS4590, and maybe the JBL-2446? Is the main problem with using a 2" CD in a 2-way design, getting the 2" CD to extend upwards around 20khz? Are there any decent 2" CD's that will go up that high and also have the ability to crossover to a 15" woofer at say 700hz to 800hz?

I would personally like to see someone do a 3-way build using a 1" CD for the tweeter and then a 2" CD for the mid-range portion. I do, of course, realize that the crossover will be more complicated and could possibly sound worse due to the disadvantages of a 3-way versus a 2-way, but me personally, I would love to see some kind of 3-way build that uses something like a Radian 950PB for the mids, and an AE TD12x or TD15x, not sure which tweeter would be best, though.
There's always the BMS Coaxial: http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4594nd

Mike
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post #94 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

What about the BA-750?
Here's bwaslo's measurements.




http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=31.0

Yes, I read about that for the first time yesterday. It didn't exist a couple of years ago and I ended my research back then. I think its creation was in part because of all those discussions we had on wanting performance throughout 700Hz to 15Khz.

I would like to see polars on that driver/horn choice.

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post #95 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

There's always the BMS Coaxial: http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4594nd

Both the OP and I have that driver and we both have commented on the HF performance not being what we wanted. Althought I have the 4592 not the newer 4594

I have 2 4592s for sale (with XOs) biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Both the OP and I have that driver and we both have commented on the HF performance not being what we wanted. Althought I have the 4592 not the newer 4594

I have 2 4592s for sale (with XOs) biggrin.gif
I was afraid of hearing that...which is why I also planned on testing them with a SEOS loaded RAAL ribbon for highs.

Mike
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post #97 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:33 AM
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Why not a 3 way with a direct radiator mid and woofer (like my avatar)? Not enough directivity?

The 3 way should give you great mids, great HF, reduce floor bounce issues, increase power handling, on and on.
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post #98 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Why not a 3 way with a direct radiator mid and woofer (like my avatar)? Not enough directivity?

The 3 way should give you great mids, great HF, reduce floor bounce issues, increase power handling, on and on.


I have all those 6.5" mid pro drivers (PHL, B&C, etc...I even have a 18sound $400 10" mid woofer that I tested once and never used frown.gif ). maybe its just me but the larger horn runs 500Hz - 5Khz better then any direct radiator.

I never really got all the large horn mania either when I had 3 way ribbon designs but I can not go back...just different now.

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post #99 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

I was afraid of hearing that...which is why I also planned on testing them with a SEOS loaded RAAL ribbon for highs.

IMO if someone sets a very high priority on HF (12KHz and above) then really they should not even be considering even 1" CDs. Its again a science thing when it comes to getting maximum performance in that frequency range. I like your idea of a ribbon! Nice.

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post #100 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I have all those 6.5" mid pro drivers (PHL, B&C, etc...I even have a 18sound $400 10" mid woofer that I tested once and never used frown.gif ). maybe its just me but the larger horn runs 500Hz - 5Khz better then any direct radiator.

I never really got all the large horn mania either when I had 3 way ribbon designs but I can not go back...just different now.

Ya I can't say I've heard any 2" CD implementations other than PA which doesn't count.

Do your large horns hold enough vertical directivity to deal with floor bounce? I suppose a 500hz XO is probably pretty good spot for that. Maybe a little lower would be better.
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post #101 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Why not a 3 way with a direct radiator mid and woofer (like my avatar)? Not enough directivity?

The 3 way should give you great mids, great HF, reduce floor bounce issues, increase power handling, on and on.

That should work very well, indeed.
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post #102 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Ya I can't say I've heard any 2" CD implementations other than PA which doesn't count.

Do your large horns hold enough vertical directivity to deal with floor bounce? I suppose a 500hz XO is probably pretty good spot for that. Maybe a little lower would be better.

Never really measured the floor bounce, Always worked on Side reflection, horizontal reflection issues more. Carpet with thick padding and very well treated room is where they are used so any sort of reflections are minimized.

Its funny to be in this type of discussion after 2 years later off biggrin.gif Tux, I looked your waveguide design, very nice ! I remember the days when you didn't have waveguides instead always enjoy high quality direct radiating. biggrin.gif

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post #103 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:13 AM
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There is really no way to reasonably get most 1" dirvers to play down to a 700hz cross. The reason is not the 1" exit, but the size of the diaphragm itself which is generally much smaller than the 1.4/1.5/2" exit drivers. The DE250/4550/DNA360 all have 1.75" voice coil diaphragms and similar SD (4550 ring radiator is a bit different but close enough). Even the 3" diaphragm JBL 1.5" exit diaphragms struggle below 700hz. Not until you get to the 4" diaphragm drivers can you really push 500hz.

The biggest issue with the larger format 3" and 4" diaphragm drivers isn't just that a 1.4 to 2" exit causing beaming above 8-12khz, but that the large diaphragm requires the use of a metallic material. Traditionally that was aluminum which doesn't do well at HF and is fragile. More recently the cost effective material is titanium which frankly doesn't sound good. Treated titanium helps quite a bit. Some of the modern aluminum diaphragms with plastic surrounds are also nice (18sound and Radian). Of course, the best option is to use beryllium. It gives you the strength of Ti but without the harsh sound. It also extends better than aluminum. But going Be means doubling or tripling your cost.

The most cost effective way to get down to 700-800hz is probably Erich's BA750. I believe it is a 2" voice coil with a coated Ti phragm. I haven't used one so I can't comment on them. There have been a few positive reviews.

The advantage of the BMS coax is that its mid portion is quite large and can realistically play down to 400-500hz. This is really only matched by JBL and TAD's 4" diaphragms and other similar drivers.

Rahula, there is really no reason to use 2" exit CDs anymore. They are a relic which IMO has become obsolete due to modern manufacturing capabilities. You will notice that JBL and TADs latest large format drivers are all 1.4" and 1.5".

Erich, BMS suggests an 800hz crossover on the 4550. They only list 500hz as the FR range. Every manufacturer does that stuff. It really isn't salesmanship as much as the fact that simple specs really only mean so much. The 450w is a peak thermal limit. The 4550 can probably take 450w peak with a 2khz steep crossover (there is no real standard for peak too). I'm not sure any 1" exit CD can take 50w of peak run naked (I'm not sure where the limit would be since I've never tried that).
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post #104 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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The floor, ceiling and front wall reflections are the worst offenders. They color the sound, i.e., it is perceived as a change in frequency response. Side-wall reflections actually add spaciousness and shouldn't be absorbed. Or if you are going to be absorbing them, the material should be pretty thick so that it is effective to the room transition frequency ~200 to 300 Hz.
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post #105 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rahula7 View Post

Penngray, your experience is interesting because I'm coming from the other way. I started with 2" and decided it wasn't doing it for me. Yes, the midrange is extraordinary, but the imaging and HF suffers. The sweet spot would be a BA-750 or TAD-2001 or a similar driver with a SEOS-18 or SEOS-24. Those horns can extend low near 700 or 800 Hz and go all the way up to 20 kHz. Agree that the midrange won't be as glorious. But there is something wrong in the way the sound is presented by a large horn and a 2" CD, at least to me. And I don't get that from the SEOS-18. My brain is relaxed, there is a sense of cognitive ease. It's getting all the info it needs at the right time. Imaging is very stable. And the midrange is still very very good.

Great discussion. It just shows that everyone has their own requirements. Everyone has different content in mind when they build something. Someone that wants the best classical music sound (that content seems to have the most > 10KHz requirements) might know something is missing on my IWATA/TAD horns . I wonder what your opinion would be if you heard the TAD TD-4000 series?


What driver are you using with the SEOS-18 that gives you what you want? I will have to hear the SEOS-18 + BA driver some day......maybe I will buy one at the end of summer biggrin.gif

is there a pre-fab Baffle for the SEOS-18??

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post #106 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rahula7 View Post

The floor, ceiling and front wall reflections are the worst offenders. They color the sound, i.e., it is perceived as a change in frequency response. Side-wall reflections actually add spaciousness and shouldn't be absorbed. Or if you are going to be absorbing them, the material should be pretty thick so that it is effective to the room transition frequency ~200 to 300 Hz.


Like many other HT guys.. I like my room completely controlled.. Absorbing is easy for anything above 1KHz....2" OC704 plus we always add some diffusers in any room I have done with friends or family. Room bass control is done more effectively by MANY subs ( I have 5 now around the room and I stopped using audyssey correction stuff).


This comes back to content and what our applications are.....My music is enjoyed through the best headphones. My HT is for movies and its where I enjoy my speakers.

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post #107 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:51 AM
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Good to see you back Penn. Some of us were worried, but it seems you just took a breather. Not a bad idea given how much you were posting. You are like Han Solo in Jabba's lair. You wake up and everyone has delusions of grandeur.

Those Iwatas have received some pretty good endorsements. What woofer are you using? That must sound great given how much tweaking you did and that fact it has lasted in your system for 2+ years. Did you ever build a center to match?

I really need to get a set of truextent diaphragms for my 2452's. I've heard Be's a few times but not enough. I almost bought some TAD 2001's but balked.
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post #108 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Why not a 3 way with a direct radiator mid and woofer (like my avatar)? Not enough directivity?

The 3 way should give you great mids, great HF, reduce floor bounce issues, increase power handling, on and on.
Tux, what are the mids that you're using?
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post #109 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post


Its funny to be in this type of discussion after 2 years later off biggrin.gif Tux, I looked your waveguide design, very nice ! I remember the days when you didn't have waveguides instead always enjoy high quality direct radiating. biggrin.gif

Ha, ya. I still use domes sometimes though wink.gif And I'm still a budget oriented guy. If it weren't for diysoundgroup where I can get a nice waveguide and CD for $75 I wouldn't be using them. And I still don't listen loud. Maybe one day ill win the lottery and join you in buying $1000 pieces of gear biggrin.gif

Thanks for the compliment.
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post #110 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 12:33 PM
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Tux, what are the mids that you're using?

A Celestion. 5".
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post #111 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 12:57 PM
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Thx, how do you think four of those mids would do under the seos 24 with say an 18” handling midbass?
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post #112 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 01:13 PM
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Kind of a waste. I'd take the SEOS 24 way down and XO where the celestion mids aren't much good.
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post #113 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 01:36 PM
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If those are the $13 closeout 5" Celestions from Parts Express I would look at using 8 of them in an MTM style setup covering ~200-650hz. The nice thing is that it you could use a very gentle crossover. Are you using a BMS coax on the SEOS-24?
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post #114 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 01:49 PM
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This has been an interesting thread. I don't know if I am lucky that I do not have the room behind my screen for larger waveguides and larger drivers or unlucky. I know one thing, lack of space is saving me some money, because I would definitely would be trying out lots of different speakers builds if I had the room. I would love to have space for a SEOS-18 with BA-750 and a TD15M or a SEOS-24 with a couple TD12M's paired horizontally under the waveguide. Another combination that I find interesting is a RAAl ribbon on an SEOS waveguide with TD12M. Now that one I can fit. May have to look into it more. smile.gif Of course, the 12" maybe too big.

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Looks like I would have to go to a 3-way to use the ribbon. Not sure that I want to do that.

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post #115 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If those are the $13 closeout 5" Celestions from Parts Express I would look at using 8 of them in an MTM style setup covering ~200-650hz. The nice thing is that it you could use a very gentle crossover. Are you using a BMS coax on the SEOS-24?
I have the horns but no compression drivers yet, trying to see the best way to proceed. I really like the idea of eight of the 5” mtm!
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post #116 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I have the horns but no compression drivers yet, trying to see the best way to proceed. I really like the idea of eight of the 5” mtm!

Here is another possibility:

8 of the Peerless 830656 in an MTM config around the SEOS-24 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1078
Use those from about 120hz-600hz and setup the 18" to handle 40-200hz but as a flanking sub so you can smooth that region.

There are a number of 5-6" mids that will work, it just depends on budget. The advantage to using 8 smaller drivers is three fold. First you will get some horizontal directivity control. Second, they will barely be taxed and should see virtually no excursion. Third, their breakup will be so far out of range it will have zero audible effect.

The best overall value option for CD is probably the BMS 4594/4593. Still not cheap, but less expensive than the Beryllium options. If you want to spend a bit more and want Beryllium, you can do the Radian 951PB with a Truextent diaphragm for around $850/driver. On the "budget" side 18Sound ND1460A's will get you to around 700-800hz...maybe 600hz but I only know of Paul W using them down to 750hz in his Raptors. The BMS and Radian can play down to 500-600hz.
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post #117 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 03:12 PM
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ryanC over on the DIY Sound Group forum has built some Malcolm array type speakers using the SEOS18/BA750 combo. He raved about the sound quality. They're crossed over @700hz.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=31.msg2488#new
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post #118 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Here is another possibility:

8 of the Peerless 830656 in an MTM config around the SEOS-24 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1078
Use those from about 120hz-600hz and setup the 18" to handle 40-200hz but as a flanking sub so you can smooth that region.

There are a number of 5-6" mids that will work, it just depends on budget. The advantage to using 8 smaller drivers is three fold. First you will get some horizontal directivity control. Second, they will barely be taxed and should see virtually no excursion. Third, their breakup will be so far out of range it will have zero audible effect.

The best overall value option for CD is probably the BMS 4594/4593. Still not cheap, but less expensive than the Beryllium options. If you want to spend a bit more and want Beryllium, you can do the Radian 951PB with a Truextent diaphragm for around $850/driver. On the "budget" side 18Sound ND1460A's will get you to around 700-800hz...maybe 600hz but I only know of Paul W using them down to 750hz in his Raptors. The BMS and Radian can play down to 500-600hz.
Thx for the info, in the scenario with 8 drivers mtm, would it very complex to do a passive crossover with the 5-6” mids and the compression driver then active with the midbass?
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post #119 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 04:29 PM
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It could work, but in my experience, doing passive anywhere under 800hz get very annoying dealing with the big impedance peaks. Active is the much better way to go when you get close to the driver Fs (for both mid and woofer). I think Max's idea is great, but I just don't think I'd bother with the added complexity. I guess it would have some advantages over skipping the mids. It would have a very uniform vertical polar pattern. It would have directivity control in the vertical direction also. I'm not so sure how the horizontal patter would turn out. And there would be less strain on the tweeter and woofer.
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post #120 of 212 Old 06-20-2013, 04:47 PM
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BTW, I've used the Peerless 830656 and it's quite nice for what it's intended purpose is. Making very wide bandwidth including bass for very little money. It does have a good frame style (truncated) for your kind of application, but somewhat low sensitivity.
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