B&C 21" Tapped horn idea - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 109 Old 06-18-2013, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I've got the Tapped Horn bug. I first became acquainted with the concept not long after I searched for information on a B&C 21SW115-8 I picked up fire-sale cheap ( $285 unused from a DJ going out of business in Utah), and ran across the Othorn. My driver doesn't model well in that enclosure and I'd trade some SPL for extension for HT ( my listening is about 50/50 music/HT). I am still on the early part of the learning curve and have a LOT to learn, but an evil idea is forming in my head.

After reading a bit on Little Mike's TH tutorial, I goofed around and found it was not hard to get a fairly nice looking curve on Hornresp, but the cabinet volumes were huge. Still, gaining a dozen decibels in the bottom octave over my current BR .... hmmmm.

My shop/furnace/laundry room is on the other side of the wall from my listening room in the basement, tons of room in there. Here's my line of thought:

I don't have a great many tools, or much experience woodworking, or money, or as much time as I'd like (who does? ). I would be willing to trade sophistication and complexity for size. So I'll want to keep the number of folds and joints as basic and few in number as possible.If it turns out to be 60 ft^3, so what. It's dead space I don't use anyway.
What if I built the body of the cabinet in the spare room, and opened into the corner of my listening room?
The preliminary models call for a pretty darn large mouth on the thing, if I'm understanding things correctly. What if I built the horn with the folds in the vertical plane instead of the horizontal, and brought it between the wall studs and flush with the room wall?
If I limited the horn mouth size to 3975 cm^2 (uh, yeah, kinda' big, I know....) it would come to something like a 45" X 13.25" opening through the wall.
It's a Man-Cave in a fairly crudely finished basement, and I'd have no compunctions about doing the modifications I've got in mind.

The output and response look pretty promising. I do NOT, however, understand enough about the other model outputs to be able to tell if it will be feasible.

My B&C is certainly not the driver of choice for a project like this, but it's the driver I have. It does have a few things going for it, namely it's rugged and well built, is made by a company that's going to be around for a while, and has a lot of Xmech -- 60mm --to work with. Josh Ricci was kind enough to reply to my inquiries as to what he'd regard as useable excursion, and he recommended up to 20mm, so I've modeled accordingly.

I'm still a bit confused as to how segment lengths and areas are figured: Is length measured by the shortest, or longest, sound path around a fold? Is the area measured perpendicular to the inside of the fold, or the outside? Rrrrr.....

But before I get ahead of myself, I would love some input as to whether my concept could work at all. What I hope for is a reasonable compromise that will get me through the next couple of years. I'd rather come up with something workable I can AND WILL build than something stellar I probably can't/won't.

Included are TS specs on the B&C 21SW115-8, Hornresp input parameters, and a rough not-to-scale sketch of what I have in mind.

A note on the sketch and Hornresp inputs. I'm trying to use inputs for L12 and L34 that can possibly match up onopposite sides of the baffle, since the mouth end of the horn will have to be at least a wall's width longer than the throat end ... lot of details to work out, but first things first.

Thanks ahead of time, I really want to make this work!!
21SW115-8.pdf 161k .pdf file TH concept.jpg 45k .jpg file TH Input parameters.jpg 103k .jpg file
TH 2.83v Response Curve.jpg 83k .jpg file
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File Type: jpg TH concept.jpg (45.3 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg TH Input parameters.jpg (103.1 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg TH 2.83v Response Curve.jpg (83.4 KB, 22 views)
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File Type: pdf 21SW115-8.pdf (160.8 KB, 20 views)
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post #2 of 109 Old 06-18-2013, 11:59 PM
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i don't know if something like this would work for you.

it is quite similar in concept as the othorn, but a different form factor
with a little bit more low end extension, a little bit.

i tried to keep the build as simple as possible.

it is 2 feet x 2 feet x 8 feet long.

internally, there are only three 'panels'.

of course, there would need to be lots of bracing.

it could fire through the wall.

it could also be configured to have the exit facing up instead of out the end.

i call it the "weird horn" because the internals don't look like any horn
that i can recall, so in that sense it is a little bit different, or weird.

of course, you can call it whatever you want!







and compared with the othorn model...othorn-black, weirdhorn-gray


edit: looks like i modeled the wrong driver. :-9 always tomorrow...

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post #3 of 109 Old 06-19-2013, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! Hey, that does look interesting smile.gif

Yeah, B&C doesn't even publish the TS parameters for the 8 ohm version of the 21SW115, and I had to contact the manufacturer for them. It doesn't tolerate as high of a compression ratio as the -152., it just doesn't have the extreme motor force. But, I plugged in a lower compression ratio on your model, and egad, loads of SPL!


...and modeled with 1200 watts and reaching acceptable excursion limits at 21 and 32hz

Off to work now, but I'll give it another look tonight. Interesting indeed ... firing from a corner in a 13' X 15' room, that'd be a pants-flapper.
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post #4 of 109 Old 06-19-2013, 09:10 AM
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ok, let's try that one again...now that i'm working with the right fricking driver!

single panel tapped horn.
8 feet long.
2 feet tall.
2 feet deep.

good frequency response extension while trying to keep max spl around the 30hz dip as high as possible. max at 30 straddle is about 5db lower (still around 125db+ or so) than othorn because of the lower compression ratio required by the 21sw115 driver and added low end extension.







othorn (light gray) compare



response rescaled to look purdy.



edit: s1 is wrong. it should be 700 in hornresp. changes nothing.
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post #5 of 109 Old 06-19-2013, 04:04 PM
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since it is a simple single rate expansion, it could alternatively be folded this way. i'm not 100% that it will perform the same, because of where the driver is located with respect to the fold behind it.

this one would be 4 feet wide, 4 feet tall, 2 feet deep. same total volume, path length, throat, mouth, etc. just like the previous one, but in a different form factor.


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post #6 of 109 Old 06-19-2013, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, I like the look of that a lot. Pretty much exactly the balance of SPL and extension I am hoping for.. The 2' x 2' x 8' version should be just the ticket. It looks like a fairly easy build even for someone of my capabilities. I have a handyman friend with a table saw and whatnot.

The next thing I'll need to do is get the dimensions figured out and a cut list put together. After that .... heh heh heh (evil grin, rubbing hands together) cool.gif

A big thanks for looking in and being a huge help! No doubt tomorrow I'll be able to come up with some questions, but for now, that models a HUGE gain over my 257L bass reflex in the lower registers.
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post #7 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 05:11 AM
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You should build it OP because I'd love to see smile.gif

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #8 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 05:48 AM
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if you have gobs of space, why not build a normal horn? the tap is a compromise to get the size smaller....

-Mike Bentz
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post #9 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 07:40 AM
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mb has a good idea.

a very simple front loaded horn could also be built. essentially, it would be slightly shorter and have a sealed box behind the driver. the horn part would still be 2x2, but only 6.5 feet long. the sealed enclosure sitting on top would be 1.5 tall x 3 wide x 2 deep.

not much more difficult to build. low end sensitivity is slightly lower, but LOTS more max spl at 30hz (not shown in this set). smoother frequency response and no 'junk' at the top end.

overall, probably a better performer.






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post #10 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 07:47 AM
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max spl plots with 2500 watts and 14mm xmax.

tapped horn on top. front loaded horn on bottom.

red portion indicates excursion limited spl, black is power limited spl.

tapped horn is higher around 20hz or so. flh is higher around 30hz or so.

since a protective high pass filter on each in the low 20's would be advisable, i'd probably go with the flh.




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post #11 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 08:02 AM
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and an alternative fold for the flh box. approx: 3.6' x 4.8' x 2' deep


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post #12 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 04:33 PM
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How much lower would double the volume go? Those only use half the volume he said he has.

I believe Fc goes with the cube of volume, so Fc of 20 would go to 15.98 Hz and Fc of 5 would go to 19.8 Hz.

Noah
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post #13 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 05:58 PM
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how low it will go depends on how long the horn is.

the sensitivity/efficiency increases with the size, but in several non-linear ways.

i'll take a look at a GIANT version and see if/how it helps anything.

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post #14 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 06:12 PM
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by reconfiguring to provide about the same response, but 1750 liters in volume (about 2x the volume of the other one), max spl is increased by 3db at the excursion limited saddle (the red droop around 35hz).

compare with BOTTOM graph in post #10.



and the response, 1w1m 2pi.


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post #15 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBentz View Post

if you have gobs of space, why not build a normal horn? the tap is a compromise to get the size smaller....
I've never considered the idea. My understanding of horns is very much entry-level, but I'm fascinated now that I've gotten a glimpse of what can be done with them. I've done sealed, then ported builds; time to graduate smile.gif

Thanks for the input!
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post #16 of 109 Old 06-20-2013, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

mb has a good idea.

not much more difficult to build. low end sensitivity is slightly lower, but LOTS more max spl at 30hz (not shown in this set). smoother frequency response and no 'junk' at the top end.

overall, probably a better performer.


I like the look of this one so far, and given the constraints I'm up against (the ugly realities about time & $$ & my assembly skills) it looks eminently "doable".

I'm pretty much happy with the output from 40 - 80 hz in my current BR design (room is only 13' X 15', after all) but all of the designs you've posted have really strong response all the way down. Truthfully, I do not know how much sub - 25hz movie tracks contain .... ???
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post #17 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 04:20 AM
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what are the dimensions of this space you have available?

-Mike Bentz
~It's all about compromise~
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post #18 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 11:05 AM
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on some movies there is content that goes down to 8hz, but for the most part, if you
do a good job nailing it down to 18hz or so, you'll get most of enjoyment.

imax and other professional cinemas tend to extend down to about 25hz or so as a reference point.

here is one that uses a full sheet of plywood for the sides. it is 4 feet tall, 8 feet wide, 2 feet deep.

should be an easy build, but it is huge and going to weigh a ton.

what you give up with the lower extension is the maximum spl around 30hz or so.

this horn has more extension than the other one, but you can see on the max spl plot that
it gives up about 5db or so around the excursion limited point (the red droop around 30hz).

125db is nothing to sneeze at though and in room, it will be higher. full reference with
all channels redirected bass is about 121db, so even if you run the bass a little on the hot
side, you should be good.

going any larger than this would be getting kind of stupid, but then again, most folks would
call a 4x8x2 horn complete insanity. it might be one of the largest that has ever been built around
here. but it is a simple design, so with lots of good bracing, i don't see any reason why you
and your pal couldn't tackle it.










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post #19 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cattskinner View Post

I've never considered the idea. My understanding of horns is very much entry-level, but I'm fascinated now that I've gotten a glimpse of what can be done with them. I've done sealed, then ported builds; time to graduate smile.gif

Thanks for the input!

That's funny! I started out with LilMike's f-20, then moved on to LLT sonotubes, and now I have tracked all the way back to multiple sealed. Just the opposite!!!!

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post #20 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

by reconfiguring to provide about the same response, but 1750 liters in volume (about 2x the volume of the other one), max spl is increased by 3db at the excursion limited saddle (the red droop around 35hz).

I was thinking that output is already ample so the extra volume would be used to extend the low end.

Noah
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post #21 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 04:40 PM
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i understood. it's just that when you extend the lower end by increasing path length
you get higher low end sensitivity, but that excursion limited point (in this case
around 30hz or so) droops pretty fast, so that is actually where the tradeoff in spl
is occurring. to get that max spl back up, the horn has to grow in size pretty rapidly.

i just didn't want him to build a massive horn that reached low into the teens and then
be disappointed because of spl limitations around 30hz. as you know, that is the wheelhouse
for movie bass.

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post #22 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBentz View Post

what are the dimensions of this space you have available?
Hi MB, and thanks a ton for the input so far.
The end of the adjacent room I have in mind is 7'6" feet wide and 7'2" tall, with an unfinished ceiling, and crudely sheet-rocked wall separating it from the listening room. If 3-4' of the end of it needed to be set aside for something more useful than the catch-all it currently is, I'd say bring it on.
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post #23 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i just didn't want him to build a massive horn that reached low into the teens and then
be disappointed because of spl limitations around 30hz. as you know, that is the wheelhouse
for movie bass.

LTD, we're on the same page. I don't listen to insane volume levels for sustained periods, and I'm not after a "braggin' rights" system. I DO, however, typically listen to one or two songs in the evening after dinner or some time at levels that are pretty demanding. Beats heck out of a cigar and a cocktail. Moreover I have pretty varied tastes; so far tonight I've listened to some older Metal, Jazz fusion, and am partway through some Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring". After posting I'll throw a movie on for a bit.

What you are proposing models ample SPL for any of the genres the enclosure might be called on to produce ... and truthfully I have no idea what 135dB (modeling for quarter-space using your Hornresp inputs) at 20Hz sounds like in a 200 ft^2 room!

I really like how the solution economizes on building materials, as they aren't exactly free either. What boggles my mind is that so long as a huge enclosure isn't prohibitive, a driver I bought for $325 with shipping, some good plywood and bracing, and a budget EP4000 amp could deliver that kind of performance. Yikes, this isn't a maybe, this will commence in about 2 weeks.
Here's a question: I want to bring the horn mouth through flush with the inside of the listening room wall, which is 4.75" thick (2 x 4 studs, 5/8" drywall times 2) and still have about that much clearance between the fold-end of the beast and the inside wall of the adjacent room (I want to isolate it from all the walls, and will likely have some sound insulation stuffed in that gap). That would mean the sealed chamber would have to be shortened a bit to allow for the thickness of the wall, and the horn body shortened a shade



Am I making any sense with this? I do not have more than the most rudimentary drafting skills if they can even be called that ...

Just goofing with the parameters and lengthening S1 to allow for the wall thickness from 27 to 36, S2 down to 495, and shrinking VRC to 480 seems to suggest the changes wouldn't amount to much performance-wise, and that a little adjustment might be tolerated well to turn the model into something I can build, and will fit. BTW, these are just some crude estimates for the sake of experimentation.
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post #24 of 109 Old 06-21-2013, 11:03 PM
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^^ it'll work.

i'll take another look tomorrow at the hornresp.

one thing is that it will need lots of bracing.


this site: http://www.volvotreter.de/th.htm

shows some ideas for bracing. essentially, you'll need several braces
that run in the direction of the horn that brace the center board to
the top and the bottom of the enclosure.

it might also be a good idea for some cross braces along the larger section
of the horn with the general idea of not having more than any approx 1 sq ft
unbraced.

another thing is that once it is in place, it isn't likely to be moved.
so if you have a small sub that you can put where the horn will enter the
room, that may give some idea as to where a good spot might be.

you kind of lucked out on that driver. it seems to work really nicely
in exactly the kind of enclosure that fits your space. maybe you did
something good in a past life. :-)

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post #25 of 109 Old 06-22-2013, 12:27 AM
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Oh Cattskinner......LOL. Great to see others helping you on your horn. Should be a fun project.
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post #26 of 109 Old 06-22-2013, 09:54 AM
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shortening it up a bit increases the rolloff point, obviously. looks like low 20's or so in 2pi space.

you may wish to keep an eye on the excursion and how much power you put on it without a highpass filter.
a highpass would be recommended if using high power.

a rough bracing strategy is provided. for the lower section the braces should include a horizontal panel
as well. so if you look at the brace from the front, it will appear as a +
for the sealed section, it really doesn't matter how you brace it, just brace it.
of course, other bracing strategies are possible, just try to ensure that it is all well braced.

the only measurement to try to get precise is the spacing to the panel in front of the driver.
all the others can have a little +/- in them.

i removed a little volume from the sealed rear enclosure. this doesn't really affect response, but
offers a smidgen of additional driver protection, but just a smidgen.

one thing is to ensure that it is air tight. this is a mistake that often causes problems with horns.
expanding adhesive such as pl premium helps to ensure no air leaks. don't get it on your hands.








rough bracing:


external:

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post #27 of 109 Old 06-22-2013, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you kind of lucked out on that driver. it seems to work really nicely
in exactly the kind of enclosure that fits your space. maybe you did
something good in a past life. :-)

biggrin.gif Heh heh ...

Yeah, since I've started goofing around with Hornresp, it's been one of the easier drivers to model. Seems to work in a lot of different configurations.

I'm probably going to be living here another 3-4 yrs, so the thing will be built in place.

This is going to be fun!
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post #28 of 109 Old 06-22-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow ... I like the look of that a lot. I will do some side to side comparisons to my current enclosure, just for kicks & motivation, but I can tell already it's at least 5-6dB gain at 40hz using comparable excursion, and that's probably the point of closest approach. And best of all, this will happen with very little cost or difficulty in construction. Sure, the Gallarhorn and a few others will out-perform it, but those are costly drivers, complicated builds ... and being driven by amps like Powersoft K-10's that run six grand. For a poor middle-aged college student this will be tremendous.

Gotta run, but I'll take a closer look tonight after the hospital shift.
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post #29 of 109 Old 06-22-2013, 11:37 AM
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that's kind of synchronicity. i was just curious how it compared to a comparable ported enclosure
approximately the same tuning too.

ported horn is 333 liters tuned to around 24hz. front loaded horn is 1321 liters,
or almost exactly four times larger.

so for that increased size, there is an approximately +6db increase in sensitivity.

there is also approximately +6db increase in excursion limited max spl (red droop).

that follows theory quite nicely where each doubling of size gives +3db in both sensitivity and max spl.

the horn should also have lower distortion because of less cone motion and less power at all spl levels.




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post #30 of 109 Old 06-22-2013, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Oh Cattskinner......LOL. Great to see others helping you on your horn. Should be a fun project.
Indeed! I think I largely have you to thank for getting my interest piqued on this one. Yeah, should be fun, unique (probably be the only one on the block anyway wink.gif and maybe even a little grotesque. My kind of project!
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