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post #1 of 38 Old 06-19-2013, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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My dad's birthday is coming up in a few months and he is in dire need of some sort of home theater system to go along with the new plasma.

I was considering the Dayton B652's but they don't seem geared toward higher volumes for home theater and I don't think they would fill the space.

The room looks to be about 25x15x9 (don't have a measuring tape handy.
The wall and shelf where the speakers will be located is around 15 feet.
The listening position is 10-15 feet back and at an angle of around 35 degrees below the shelf.

Budget is around 60$ for main speakers but I could scrounge up more depending on the diminishing returns point and how much cash I have around after selling my power amp and eq.

I live in Canada so i'm likely limited as far as enclosures go, I like what diy sound group has to offer but i don't know if it's cost effective to ship them over here and alternatives are welcome.

All speaker components will likely be bought from Solen.ca as they carry alot of what
Parts-express.com does, but it will all depend on shipping costs.

I want to match (or outright surpass) the sound quality of the B652's, but sound quality is subjective so here's what i'm looking for:

Efficiency is somewhat important, especially in the mid-upper frequency range.
I don't have a lot of power on tap (anywhere from 20-50watts per channel) which means i'll likely be going with horns.

Coverage is important as well, there will be people seated off to the side of the screen.

High end detail is important and is apparently lacking in the B652's.

I'm fine with a sealed design but would like to at least get down to the 80hz range and leave it to a small sub beyond that.

Deep bass will be taken care of with bass shakers.

All suggestions are welcome, don't be afraid to think outside the box (literally) if a certain horn extends outside of a flat pack or pre-made enclosure it's not a big deal as long as the main part of it fits the cutout.
Performance over aesthetics smile.gif

Also don't be afraid to bring on the audio theory like imaging, beaming etc, learning is half the fun biggrin.gif

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 38 Old 06-27-2013, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe a higher budget? Any ideas?
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post #3 of 38 Old 06-27-2013, 08:29 PM
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Well, there is the redesigned crossover for the B652

http://www.zaphaudio.com/Dayton-B652.html

Your budget is basically unrealistic, especially if you're expecting cabinets. The cheapest design I can think of with decent output and 80hz extension is the Cabrini

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=cabrini


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post #4 of 38 Old 06-27-2013, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Well, there is the redesigned crossover for the B652

http://www.zaphaudio.com/Dayton-B652.html

Your budget is basically unrealistic, especially if you're expecting cabinets. The cheapest design I can think of with decent output and 80hz extension is the Cabrini

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=cabrini

Budget isn't fixed, but this is a budget build, and i'd like to at least keep it under 100$.

I'm not expecting anything at this point. Any design is on the table, from sealed to open baffle.

Coaxial drivers look like a neat idea as well.

I'd also like to learn more about imaging and whether there are certain specs I should be looking for to achieve it.
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post #5 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 07:22 AM
 
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wood + glue + paint + filler alone is nearly 100 bucks in Canada. a 4x8 sheet of mdf is nearly 42 bucks. I don't think there is value in DIY unless you are spending 100+ on each speakers drivers and crossover parts. (other than enjoyment/hobby)
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post #6 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

wood + glue + paint + filler alone is nearly 100 bucks in Canada. a 4x8 sheet of mdf is nearly 42 bucks. I don't think there is value in DIY unless you are spending 100+ on each speakers drivers and crossover parts. (other than enjoyment/hobby)

Where are you pricing wood, glue and paint?
Anywho I have plenty of supplies already, all that i'll need to buy are the speaker components.
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post #7 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

wood + glue + paint + filler alone is nearly 100 bucks in Canada. a 4x8 sheet of mdf is nearly 42 bucks. I don't think there is value in DIY unless you are spending 100+ on each speakers drivers and crossover parts. (other than enjoyment/hobby)
There's certainly no point in DIY if you're only trying to do as well as what you can buy for perhaps $300 or less. Building for $300 what it would cost you at least $1,000 to buy is where it's at.

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post #8 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 10:54 AM
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Below $100, DIY isn't the best option because on the used market, a person can get a better performing speaker for less. As bill points out, for around $300 a person can build a speaker of similar performance and quality as those around 600-1000. But, a speaker that costs, brand new, around 800-1000, will cost around $350, 5 or so years down the road.

YID DIY
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post #9 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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The used market isn't really much of an option for a gift setup.
Alright, so let's say I went out and bought either a set of Dayton B652's, the Pioneers that routinely go on sale for below 100$, Jbl Loft series, etc.
Is it really better to be buying commercial speakers in the sub 150$ price point than it would be to buy decent quality components on sale?
It's fine if that's the case but I would like to understand the how and why, maybe learning something about what goes into a set of speakers (crossovers, driver quality, etc).
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post #10 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 11:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Where are you pricing wood, glue and paint?
Anywho I have plenty of supplies already, all that i'll need to buy are the speaker components.

home depot, lowes, anywhere it's the same really. 42 for MDF, depending on paint and what you're doing, you need sealer, sand paper, paintbrush etc. etc. which is easily 20-50 bucks. glue like 8, filler like 5-8 bucks. But if you have a lot of the stuff already then yeah it's a lot less.
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post #11 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 11:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There's certainly no point in DIY if you're only trying to do as well as what you can buy for perhaps $300 or less. Building for $300 what it would cost you at least $1,000 to buy is where it's at.

exactly

stretch your budget to 300 bucks. if it's a gift, make it count for 2 occasions, or 3 occasions. Birthday present and Christmas present. or whatever.
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post #12 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Budget depends on alot of things, mainly how much I can get selling a 40 year old Peavey power amp (not looking good), a Behringer Eq and a set of Psb 500's.
The Psb 500's are a little scratch and dent and they would be to large for the space.

I am open to all sorts of designs and the simplest seems to be an open baffle design utilizing some Mdf spacer rings.
This isn't meant to beat a set of 300$ speakers from Psb, Hsu, Svs, etc.
It's competition is the likes of Dayton's, Pioneer's and other sub 150$ speakers.
The budget has to stretch across the whole setup. That includes an amp (probably a class t or class d), the speakers, and maybe a couple of Dayton bass shakers or an Aura shaker.

I would like to hear more about why Diy isn't the best option, what a design like open baffle has to offer, or alternatives within the price range that will do better.
I am here to learn, not just to buy a set of cheap speakers or throw together a kit.

The downside to open baffle looks like efficiency? Upon further reading it sounds like I would want to use high efficiency drivers with high qts.
Maybe something like this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-518
Although i'm not sure how to calculate off axis response?
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post #13 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I going in the right direction with this^ It looks like a decent driver for an open baffle system with a couple of small subs to help out with the lows.
I read some good things about open baffle systems and it's something that you don't see much in commercial budget speakers, so I think it would be neat to see how it would sound. I don't think a crossover is even necessary for that particular driver.

I understand that speaker designers/builders on avs are mostly interested in the big budget builds, but if I could build something for less than 100$ that sounds as good as commercial speakers costing upwards of 150$, I think i'd be ahead of the game while learning quite a bit in the process.

We also don't get the deals here in Canada on most commercial brands, but there are some good deals on speaker drivers.
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post #14 of 38 Old 06-28-2013, 11:42 PM
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It's still a 5" driver with 1.5 mm xmax, so anything involving bass will be extremely limited, and distorted. You would really need to take some measurements to see what kind of contour filter is needed based on your baffle/box alignment.

Speaking of full range drivers, I completely forgot about this simple/cheap design

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457405/noob-needs-help-for-first-diy-speaker-project#post_22952677

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-548


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post #15 of 38 Old 06-29-2013, 02:06 AM
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I think you'll find what you looking for, over in the HTGuide.com > mission possible DIY forum. Those guys are into low budget yet hi fi designs and some of them are very popular. There is one design called "Swope HT 5.1" that is closer to your budget that uses HiVi and Dayton Drivers. They aren't very efficient, but they prob. will sound better then anything you'll find in the big box stores. wink.gif

Regards,

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post #16 of 38 Old 06-29-2013, 01:21 PM
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In the under $150 range, a blowout speaker pair of pioneers, inifinitys, or jbls are a hard to beat value.

Newegg has the jbl 180 towers for like $110 shipped (each) right now. I have the 190s, and at normal listening volumes they sound very comparable to my $1000+ pair of SEOS diy towers. Only when I feed them 300w and hit 90-120db do they show their true strengths over the jbls.

I don't feel you can get a better value over that with diy in that price range.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
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post #17 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, there certainly seems to be a lot of varying opinions on what kind of sound quality can be had for 100$~
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

In the under $150 range, a blowout speaker pair of pioneers, inifinitys, or jbls are a hard to beat value.

Newegg has the jbl 180 towers for like $110 shipped (each) right now. I have the 190s, and at normal listening volumes they sound very comparable to my $1000+ pair of SEOS diy towers. Only when I feed them 300w and hit 90-120db do they show their true strengths over the jbls.

I don't feel you can get a better value over that with diy in that price range.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

This seems a little odd, why build a 1000$ set of speakers if they aren't much better than commercial speakers costing 5 times less?
I have a feeling most would be able to readily tell the difference in that situation, but perhaps the diminishing returns point is significantly lower than I thought?

The other end of the spectrum is that 100$ for Diy will provide speakers with not much better sound quality than commercial 100$~ speakers.

I have a feeling the reality might be somewhere in between, but this is to be expected due to how subjective sound quality can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

It's still a 5" driver with 1.5 mm xmax, so anything involving bass will be extremely limited, and distorted. You would really need to take some measurements to see what kind of contour filter is needed based on your baffle/box alignment.

Speaking of full range drivers, I completely forgot about this simple/cheap design

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457405/noob-needs-help-for-first-diy-speaker-project#post_22952677

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-548


I didn't think that driver would be a good fit for a sealed box?

I have found a couple of programs that can model open baffle systems, but i'm open to program suggestions.

I looked into the Cabrini as well but I am not really up to building enclosures right now, which is part of the reason for considering open baffle speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmys15 View Post

I think you'll find what you looking for, over in the HTGuide.com > mission possible DIY forum. Those guys are into low budget yet hi fi designs and some of them are very popular. There is one design called "Swope HT 5.1" that is closer to your budget that uses HiVi and Dayton Drivers. They aren't very efficient, but they prob. will sound better then anything you'll find in the big box stores. wink.gif

Regards,

Thanks I will definitely look into that. I noticed the Swope enclosure at diy sound group.


Thanks to everyone for offering your opinions, but I still would like to know what makes a 1000$ speaker better than a 100$ speaker.

For commercial 1000$ speakers i would imagine a lot of it goes towards r&d.

A good quality enclosure shouldn't be all that costly, so I can't see that adding to much to the cost.

I can imagine they use better drivers, but what is it about these drivers that makes them so much more magical than the cheap Daytons and the like?
Is the better sound of more expensive drivers reflected in the T/s specs, or is it something that has to be heard to be appreciated?

I have also heard some varying opinions on the quality of crossovers used as well, but it seems sort of like the "high quality" speaker cable argument.
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post #18 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 04:55 PM
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audio can be a little tricky.

sometimes a cheap speaker can be a real winner.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-what.html

linkwitz is a genius who designed an excellent speaker using
some top of the line drivers and a ton of audio theory.

behringer is a joke to many people and would be laughed out
of the room by audiophiles a priori, but in this test,
the cheap chinese made behringer speakers beat the linkwitz
orion speakers by a slim margin.

the behringer used is a powered speaker and a pair cost about $400.

the linkwitz orion is a high end audiophile speaker that cost...well...more.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #19 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

audio can be a little tricky.

sometimes a cheap speaker can be a real winner.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-what.html

linkwitz is a genius who designed an excellent speaker using
some top of the line drivers and a ton of audio theory.

behringer is a joke to many people and would be laughed out
of the room by audiophiles a priori, but in this test,
the cheap chinese made behringer speakers beat the linkwitz
orion speakers by a slim margin.

the behringer used is a powered speaker and a pair cost about $400.

the linkwitz orion is a high end audiophile speaker that cost...well...more.


This was exactly my thinking going into the thread. I figured because sound is so subjective, I could build a speaker for little more than the base cost of the components. By carefully selecting those components which are known to have good sound quality on a budget, and building with materials like sonotube (10$ for a 12' roll of 6" tube) and mdf speaker rings, I figure I have a decent chance of designing something that will do well within the 150$~ range.
Shipping is what would really kill the budget for me, shipping drivers is one thing, but even shipping the B652's would likely turn 40$ speakers, into 80$ speakers. There are also zero deals on commercial speakers around here other than Precision Acoustics.

I was kind of hoping the specs of the drivers would be a little more indicative of certain aspects of sound quality, is there any way to predict things like beaming from the specs?
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post #20 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 07:10 PM
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"I figured because sound is so subjective..."

while true to some extent, there is quite a bit of research
that correlates various aspects of sound to listener preferences,
so "what sounds good" is often quite predictable.

the behringer did well because it somehow met the criteria
for many of the critical aspects of what sounds good, such
as linear frequency response and excellent off axis behavior.

there is a passive version by the way:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-6042

"I was kind of hoping the specs of the drivers would be a little more indicative of certain aspects of sound quality, is there any way to predict things like beaming from the specs?"

there is, and a *whole* lot more, but that would take years to explain and/or learn.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #21 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I was kind of hoping the specs of the drivers would be a little more indicative of certain aspects of sound quality, is there any way to predict things like beaming from the specs?"

there is, and a *whole* lot more, but that would take years to explain and/or learn.

I've got time wink.gif

"Well in PCD I think it's determined by the effective diameter. Which would seem natural, as the speaker approaches frequencies where the wavelength is shorter than it's effective diameter, it starts beaming or becoming "directional" which I suppose could also take away from the speaker "disappearing" and the speakers' ability to image well."

The above is quoted from here: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?225725-Is-woofer-beaming-determined-by-the-woofers-off-axis-performance

That was a quick year tongue.gif
But i'm sure there's more to it.
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post #22 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 08:00 PM
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If you've got time, start reading wink.gif


http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Pages/WhitePapers.aspx

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?219617-The-Speaker-Building-Bible

It's not something that can be just explained in a few paragraphs.


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post #23 of 38 Old 07-01-2013, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, that's a lot of good information there. I suppose the second 2 links sort of mitigate spending 45$ on a book though right wink.gif
The parts-express bible looks like a great place to start.
Thanks smile.gif
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these frequently go on sale for 69.00 and they are free shipping to canada. I have a pair of these as spares/camping speakers/whatever and they are very decent speakers. They go loud enough to make your ears ring and they look surprisingly nice for cheap speakers. http://www.visions.ca/Catalogue/Category/Details.aspx?categoryId=160&productId=2382&sku=M10
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post #25 of 38 Old 07-02-2013, 06:06 AM
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For a $100, I would skip DIY and buy a pair of Pioneer speakers. They often go for well under $100/pair.

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS22-LR-Designed-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers/dp/B008NCD2LG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1372770365&sr=8-2&keywords=pioneer+speakers
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post #26 of 38 Old 07-02-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post


The downside to open baffle looks like efficiency? Upon further reading it sounds like I would want to use high efficiency drivers with high qts.
Maybe something like this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-518
That's a good 7dB shy of what's generally considered high efficiency. High efficiency requires a strong motor, which translates to a low Qes, not high.
Quote:
I was kind of hoping the specs of the drivers would be a little more indicative of certain aspects of sound quality, is there any way to predict things like beaming from the specs?
You can predict anything and everything from complete spec sheets, the trick lies in knowing how. That's where there's no substitute for years, if not decades, of experience.

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post #27 of 38 Old 07-02-2013, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
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... is there any way to predict things like beaming from the specs?

Yes. Normally we look at the angles for a -3 dB drop in response at various frequencies.

Here's some examples:





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post #28 of 38 Old 07-02-2013, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's a good 7dB shy of what's generally considered high efficiency. High efficiency requires a strong motor, which translates to a low Qes, not high.
You can predict anything and everything from complete spec sheets, the trick lies in knowing how. That's where there's no substitute for years, if not decades, of experience.

That would explain why the qts was low on most of the higher efficiency drivers I was looking at. I've read that a high qts is ideal to get decent bass response
in open baffle systems. I'm not not sure how high a qts is necessary though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

these frequently go on sale for 69.00 and they are free shipping to canada. I have a pair of these as spares/camping speakers/whatever and they are very decent speakers. They go loud enough to make your ears ring and they look surprisingly nice for cheap speakers. http://www.visions.ca/Catalogue/Category/Details.aspx?categoryId=160&productId=2382&sku=M10

I'll keep an eye out for the sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Yes. Normally we look at the angles for a -3 dB drop in response at various frequencies.

Here's some examples:






Neat, is that formula a constant across all drivers?
I know a horn, bipole, or dipole config would be different.
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post #29 of 38 Old 07-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

That would explain why the qts was low on most of the higher efficiency drivers I was looking at. I've read that a high qts is ideal to get decent bass response
in open baffle systems.
'Decent bass' and 'open baffle' are pretty much mutually exclusive terms. If OB worked all that well no one would waste time, effort and materials building baffled systems.

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post #30 of 38 Old 07-02-2013, 01:32 PM
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Klipsch KSB 1.1 Bookshelf speakers. http://www.klipsch.com/ksb-1-1-bookshelf-speaker

I use them for surrounds, and reasonably efficient at 92db. I'll bring them camping and power them with a portable 15W amp, and they put out very good sound with little power.

Can be found used for under 100.

 




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