Help me with my Ok/Good sounding speakers sound Great - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 9 Old 06-27-2013, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
robertkjr3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've made many amateur moves, and not knowing what I'm really doing, and a lot of it is to do with not have real money, or knowledge of the subject. I picked up these cabinets off the side of the road, and decided to rebuild the speakers. The speakers were completely blown... even the X-overs. Everything except the tweeters (although they may stink). But the cabinets were so solid, and good looking I fell in love with the idea and the hobby.



So the 1st thing I did was found the replacement woofers that belong in the cabinet. Some may complain right here. Because these 'Prodynmic' speakers might be a mere wind, and a passing road-side scam sale of college students. Or White-Van speakers. However after replacing the woofers, than have performed very well, no one would complain about the Bass on these speakers. I can no longer find even the specs on these, if they were ever accurate.

The original design was 2-way... but I had decided to go 3-way.... (read why below)

The 2nd thing I did was replace the X-Over:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-152

Then the odd thing is.. The front grill and the wood had a spot for 3rd speaker, proving that this was in fact a cheap 'white van speaker'. But I was intent on rebuilding them to be better, so I filled the Midrange hole with-

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=292-200

Its a sealed back speaker. I think that was wise. But just recently I still put a piece of wood, inside the cabinet between the woofer and the midrange, just to see if it would sound a little better. It did seem to give it more Bass, but Better... I dunno.

Oh... I forgot. I also have an L-Pad on the tweeter. But I'm tweaking it all the time, to try and get it to sound right, as well as the equalizer. I don't have real PolyFill on the inside of the cabinet, I actually have some ... forgive me... I have some 'Carpet Backing'.. it was what I had. I've heard that I can use wool, or even fiber glass. I believe it is a form of some kind of wool that was in the cabinet, but it was badly put in there originally, and it was very light, so it does not seem like wool.

currently to make my soundfield sound decent... I need my graphic equalizer like this:


The tweeters, may be junky... they are original, and not yet replaced. But when listening, the problem seems to be in other frequencies... the sound just doesn't pop out at you, unless you are in 5.1 mode with help from the friends (meaning the other speakers....)
robertkjr3d is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 9 Old 06-27-2013, 06:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 142
You can't just pick random parts and connect them to a generic pre-made crossover and expect them to perform well. It doesn't work like that! You need to find the T/S paramitors on the woofer, and model the enclosure based on that to see if that enclosure is ok for that woofer. You need measurement gear in order to build a proper crossover. Speaking of which, do you know how to design crossovers? If not, then I would try and look in to a different speaker, you could get a Seos kit from DIYSoundgroup or perhaps a Dayton Kit from Parts Express.

Or you could locate an older pair of Klipsch Herseys or KG-s and work on upgrading those, as that would be a fun way to learn about this kind of stuff! You can pick up a used pair of Herseys for roughly $300. Go to Bob Crites website and see all of the different options that you can choose from!
Martycool007 is offline  
post #3 of 9 Old 06-27-2013, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
robertkjr3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

You can't just pick random parts and connect them to a generic pre-made crossover and expect them to perform well. It doesn't work like that! You need to find the T/S paramitors on the woofer, and model the enclosure based on that to see if that enclosure is ok for that woofer. You need measurement gear in order to build a proper crossover. Speaking of which, do you know how to design crossovers? If not, then I would try and look in to a different speaker, you could get a Seos kit from DIYSoundgroup or perhaps a Dayton Kit from Parts Express.

Or you could locate an older pair of Klipsch Herseys or KG-s and work on upgrading those, as that would be a fun way to learn about this kind of stuff! You can pick up a used pair of Herseys for roughly $300. Go to Bob Crites website and see all of the different options that you can choose from!
hmm... 'You can't'... differerent speaker (basically start over)... Spend $300.. I'm looking for help, not a defeatist, its impossible attitude... all things are possible. There must be ways to improve.

Agreed... If I had to do it over again.. I would have started with different components. Actually whenever, I'm on one of these sites, asking a question, there is typically somebody who chimes in and tells me that what I'm doing is in his opinion is not advised or impossible, but eventually someone gives me something I can use, than the project moves forward. Do you expect me to put my speakers on the side of the road where I found them? no I don't think so... they are a project.. my project.
robertkjr3d is offline  
post #4 of 9 Old 06-27-2013, 08:33 AM
Senior Member
 
djarchow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 25
What you are trying to do isn't impossible, it just may not be a great idea.

To fix them or make them better you need measurements of the frequency response of each driver in the cabinet. This would tell you if the drivers are going to work together or not .Then using that measured frequency respone and impedance information,someone needs to design a proper crossover for them. A premade crossover like you purchased never works well because a crossover has do be designed specifically for the drivers being used.

Unless you can find someone to do the measurements and XO work for you, you would have to buy or borrow a measurement microphone, mic preamp, and some measurement software. Then either use free XO software like PCD or buy something like SoundEasy and learn to design crossovers.

The other option, and really a better one unless you want to take up speaker design and building as a hobby, is to cut your losses on this speaker and buy one of the kits mentioned earlier. You will end up with a much better sounding speaker in the end.

The cheap option is to use your ears and your EQ to get a sound you like and live with that.

Good luck.
djarchow is offline  
post #5 of 9 Old 06-27-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
robertkjr3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by djarchow View Post

What you are trying to do isn't impossible, it just may not be a great idea.

To fix them or make them better you need measurements of the frequency response of each driver in the cabinet. This would tell you if the drivers are going to work together or not .Then using that measured frequency respone and impedance information,someone needs to design a proper crossover for them. A premade crossover like you purchased never works well because a crossover has do be designed specifically for the drivers being used.

Unless you can find someone to do the measurements and XO work for you, you would have to buy or borrow a measurement microphone, mic preamp, and some measurement software. Then either use free XO software like PCD or buy something like SoundEasy and learn to design crossovers.

The other option, and really a better one unless you want to take up speaker design and building as a hobby, is to cut your losses on this speaker and buy one of the kits mentioned earlier. You will end up with a much better sounding speaker in the end.

The cheap option is to use your ears and your EQ to get a sound you like and live with that.

Good luck.

designing a crossover sounds like fun. ... you say borrow, because this stuff is incredibly expensive? Or will it work with a good mic attached to a computer? No links on these posts.

The other option... If I did go another route. Is it possible to keep the cabinets I have?.. and build in them, just toss out the drivers and X-overs?
robertkjr3d is offline  
post #6 of 9 Old 06-27-2013, 11:58 AM
Senior Member
 
djarchow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 457
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 25
A cheap measurement mic like the Dayton mic at Parts Express is $50, a cheap mic preamp, $60-90. Measurement software like Holm Impulse is free, others like SoundEasy ($250) are not. Same with modeling software, some free (Passive Crossover Designer) others like SoundEasy, LspCad, are not.

However, even with the right tools, you would still have a lot to learn before you would be able to get decent results. Designing loudspeakers is not easy, designing loudspeakers that sound great is even harder. Still it is a great hobby and if you have a real interest in it go for it. If you just want a pair of speakers that sound good, build a proven design. I would go here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ and get one of their flat pack kits. These are well designed speakers and come with a knock down cabinet, drivers and crossovers, etc. You can get some of the cheaper ones for about the price of the above measurement hardware I mentioned above.

As for using what you have already got, the odds are against you. The drivers in a successful loudspeaker design are carefully chosen to match sensitivities of the other drivers, frequency response that works well together with the other drivers, etc. You bought a midrange I assume because it fit the hole in the cabinet, you have some sort of a horn tweeter. So finding drivers that would work well together and fit in your cabinet will be tough. Not to mention a 3 way is more difficult to design than a two way.

Good luck
djarchow is offline  
post #7 of 9 Old 06-28-2013, 04:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post

hmm... 'You can't'... differerent speaker (basically start over)... Spend $300.. I'm looking for help, not a defeatist, its impossible attitude... all things are possible. There must be ways to improve.

Agreed... If I had to do it over again.. I would have started with different components. Actually whenever, I'm on one of these sites, asking a question, there is typically somebody who chimes in and tells me that what I'm doing is in his opinion is not advised or impossible, but eventually someone gives me something I can use, than the project moves forward. Do you expect me to put my speakers on the side of the road where I found them? no I don't think so... they are a project.. my project.

I am very sorry bud, I didnt mean to come accross as having an attitude! I promise!

I wasn't trying to say that it's impossible either, but just that it takes a very very long time of reading and researching this stuff, in order to learn everything. You just can't come to the site, read for a couple of days, and gain enough knowlegpdge to build a set of 3-ways. I wish you the best of luck and I apologize if I sounded a bit too discouraging! smile.gif
petew likes this.
Martycool007 is offline  
post #8 of 9 Old 07-01-2013, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
robertkjr3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by djarchow View Post

A cheap measurement mic like the Dayton mic at Parts Express is $50, a cheap mic preamp, $60-90. Measurement software like Holm Impulse is free, others like SoundEasy ($250) are not. Same with modeling software, some free (Passive Crossover Designer) others like SoundEasy, LspCad, are not.

However, even with the right tools, you would still have a lot to learn before you would be able to get decent results. Designing loudspeakers is not easy, designing loudspeakers that sound great is even harder. Still it is a great hobby and if you have a real interest in it go for it. If you just want a pair of speakers that sound good, build a proven design. I would go here: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ and get one of their flat pack kits. These are well designed speakers and come with a knock down cabinet, drivers and crossovers, etc. You can get some of the cheaper ones for about the price of the above measurement hardware I mentioned above.

As for using what you have already got, the odds are against you. The drivers in a successful loudspeaker design are carefully chosen to match sensitivities of the other drivers, frequency response that works well together with the other drivers, etc. You bought a midrange I assume because it fit the hole in the cabinet, you have some sort of a horn tweeter. So finding drivers that would work well together and fit in your cabinet will be tough. Not to mention a 3 way is more difficult to design than a two way.

Good luck

I see what you mean about fighting a losing battle. It does seem a bit discouraging. That I would basically need to put these on the side of the road and start a-fresh. For now... I'll keep playing with the L-Pads and the Graphic Equalizer. I suppose one day I can use the subs that in them to drill into my floor, and use them for floor sub-woofers.

PS... I did browse the speaker kits... the popular kinds use 2-way X-overs with 4-ohm double woofer speaker pattern... which is prolly a great way to go. But not any time soon will I get to spending real money on this stuff.
robertkjr3d is offline  
post #9 of 9 Old 07-02-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
robertkjr3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
With the x-overs I do have... http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-152

I was reading that I can mess around with the frequency exchanges just by switching the capacitors. I suppose a trial and error approach along that road would not be advisable? as a cheap-o improvement method.
robertkjr3d is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off