Seeking SEOS & Subwoofer suggestions before next phase of HT construction - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been a long time lurker with a dedicated ~18' x 22' basement theater currently under construction. Three side are poured concrete and the basement is under grade. After consult withTed White of the Soundproofing Co, I decided on the common insulation, clips, channel, and two layers of 5/8 drywall with Green Glue in between.

Distance behind the screen wall and column dimensions are subject to change depending on suggestions. Here is a rough drawing of the layout:



Listening position will be 12' from a 120" AT screen from Jamestown. My design goals are for all speakers, including subs, to be hidden behind the screen or incorporated into columns.

The performance benchmark I'm attempting to exceed is my current rig consisting of Paradigm Studio 100s v2, Studio CC, and 4 ADP450s powered by a Cinepro 200x5 amp and an Adcom GFA 555 200x2 amp. Subs are a HSU VTF3 MK1 and a Outlaw LMS Plus.

After more hours of research on this extremely informative forum, probably more than hours spent turning screws in the HT, I'm almost convinced to go the DIY route for the LCRs and surrounds. I'm 100% convinced about DIY subs unless there was an awesome deal on the used market.

My thoughts are three Fusion-15 Sentinels for the LCRs and four Cheap Thrills for the surrounds. Something about 7 15" midbass drivers seems appealing. I'm looking for subs that can keep pace. If there is any other SEOS project that can best my current rig I'm open to suggestions--I am furloughed for 11 days and will have more labor hours available than $$$.

I'm I on the right track? What sub projects should I be looking at? If EQ or DSP will be needed I'll most likely need to call in some help. Its alway taken me a while to tune my car audio projects. I know what sounds good to my ear, but I seem to get easly frustrated with the tuning aspects of car audio. I have never heard any of these speakers or any DIY HT speakers for that matter; however, I think I can follow instructions to build ugly MDF cabinets and assemble/wire crossovers. One of my past professions was as a security systems technician.

I would like to stay under $3k and that is with selling my Paradigm stuff to generate extra cash. If I'm better off keeping them with a focus on subs, then I can spend $1500 on the subs.

Any suggestion or assistance will be greatly appreciated.

Here are a few pics of the room in progress:


Screen wall(left)


Screen wall(right)


Audio rack is outside of room so fan noise from pro audio amps is not an issue.


Drywall on ceiling has since been finished.

Thanks for looking.

Cheers!
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post #2 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 09:02 PM
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I really dont see any reason to use speakers that large for surrounds, and it looks like they're going to be pretty close to the seating position. Something like the Karma 8 should be more then capable enough.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/karma8-kit.html

You're only 12' away from the mains, any of the SEOS speakers will easily handle that distance, so pick whichever one you're most comfortable with. Personally I would look at the Zephyr.

Budget for subs should be good for a pair of these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-7094

and a nu3000dsp

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=248-6706&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla
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post #3 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 09:05 PM
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You could build a few horn sub's behind the screen. If that is to complicated then two big 18" ported sub's tuned low.
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post #4 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

I really dont see any reason to use speakers that large for surrounds, and it looks like they're going to be pretty close to the seating position. Something like the Karma 8 should be more then capable enough.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/karma8-kit.html

You're only 12' away from the mains, any of the SEOS speakers will easily handle that distance, so pick whichever one you're most comfortable with. Personally I would look at the Zephyr.

Budget for subs should be good for a pair of these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-7094

and a nu3000dsp

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=248-6706&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

Thanks for the suggestions, it appears that they can dig fairly deep.
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post #5 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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In my original post I forgot to mention the system will be used for 40% movies, 30% concert DVDs and SACD/DVD-A, 20% TV sports, and 10% Wii.

I am interested in the bass horns for their efficiency since I'm house power limited and pulling another circuit would be a PITA; however, I'm up for the task if its worth the reward of multiple sealed subs and tons of power. To my ears, my single JL Audio 13W6 in a sealed boxed crushed (both in SQ and "feel") the two ported 12s I had in my Jetta--if that helps with any of the suggestions.

Is there anyone between Richmond and Northern VA willing to show off/demo their DIY speakers/subs?

Thanks for the suggestions so far.
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post #6 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 09:07 AM
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with that type of space have you thought about going IB?

if it were me id do IB or horn subs
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post #7 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 09:08 AM
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You have a great layout for a baffle wall with IB sub manifolds (though consider angling the walls outside the screen toward the LP and placing the L&R just outside the screen). The IB would require far less power than small sealed subs for the same SPL. I'd do four manifolds at the 25% width and height dimensions of the front wall. Receiver/pre-pro can reduce the excess bass you'll get from the LCRs in a baffle wall...giving you more SPL headroom/lower distortion.

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post #8 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 12:06 PM
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The biggest problem I see so far is your DOORS. It will leak lots of sounds, especially the bass.
In fact, I'm almost certain my subs would break your door latch (but that's almost another topic).

Your theater is nearly identical to mine, mine's 6 inches bigger on each side; but the bass response with these dimensions suck (FYI)! I wanted to go bigger but budget wouldn't allow, a rectangular dimension would be MUCH better.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436049/bassthathz-theater-build/

I'm running 10 18's, 13 15's, 7 SEOS tweeters and 35,000watts in this size of room. Which I find "adequate" tongue.giftongue.gif

One thing you will LIKE is that it's totally soundproof from 200hz on up to well over 100db.
As long as you keep the subs under 95db-C, you can listen at max volume at 3am no probs...
Although your weaker door design might change that result; however with the concrete that you have (that I don't) it might even be a touch more soundproof.

I have 200amps @ 120v / 100amps @ 240v in my theater, it's definitely worth it... I couldn't run all those woofers without it.

With my stuff on mute I consume ~1200W RMS (or ~10amps), at low volume (70db) 1500W RMS (12.5amps).

At max volume I have never exceeded 75amps@120v or 9000watts peak, but at those levels I'm breaking dishes in OTHER PEOPLES homes with no significant distortion of my own biggrin.gifeek.gif

My neighbors have told me (on more than one occasion) that I'm actually inducing Richter Scale events in their yards... GreenGlue wasn't enough apparently.
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post #9 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

The biggest problem I see so far is your DOORS. It will leak lots of sounds, especially the bass.
In fact, I'm almost certain my subs would break your door latch (but that's almost another topic).

Your theater is nearly identical to mine, mine's 6 inches bigger on each side; but the bass response with these dimensions suck (FYI)! I wanted to go bigger but budget wouldn't allow, a rectangular dimension would be MUCH better.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436049/bassthathz-theater-build/

I'm running 10 18's, 13 15's, 7 SEOS tweeters and 35,000watts in this size of room. Which I find "adequate" tongue.giftongue.gif

One thing you will LIKE is that it's totally soundproof from 200hz on up to well over 100db.
As long as you keep the subs under 95db-C, you can listen at max volume at 3am no probs...
Although your weaker door design might change that result; however with the concrete that you have (that I don't) it might even be a touch more soundproof.

I have 200amps @ 120v / 100amps @ 240v in my theater, it's definitely worth it... I couldn't run all those woofers without it.

With my stuff on mute I consume ~1200W RMS (or ~10amps), at low volume (70db) 1500W RMS (12.5amps).

At max volume I have never exceeded 75amps@120v or 9000watts peak, but at those levels I'm breaking dishes in OTHER PEOPLES homes with no significant distortion of my own biggrin.gifeek.gif

My neighbors have told me (on more than one occasion) that I'm actually inducing Richter Scale events in their yards... GreenGlue wasn't enough apparently.

I knew my door was a weak link going into the project, but it was already installed with the thought of being able to watch the kids in the theater while enjoying an adult beverage at the adjacent bar. In fact, Ted White went as far to say with the current door I shouldn't waste my money on sound proofing. I'm going install sweeps and seals and see how they perform. I'll replace them down the road if I need to.

I only have one dedicated 20 amp circuit to dedicate to amps--I have a feeling I'm going to have to find a way the install additional circuits from the panel on the other side of the finished basement.

BTW--I have followed your build and it's awesome. I'll be taking a more minimalist approach.

As far as a SEOS CD should I be looking to consider matching waveguides and compression drivers since I do like to listen to multi-channel audio?

Thanks for your input.
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post #10 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

You have a great layout for a baffle wall with IB sub manifolds (though consider angling the walls outside the screen toward the LP and placing the L&R just outside the screen). The IB would require far less power than small sealed subs for the same SPL. I'd do four manifolds at the 25% width and height dimensions of the front wall. Receiver/pre-pro can reduce the excess bass you'll get from the LCRs in a baffle wall...giving you more SPL headroom/lower distortion.

Placing the speakers outside of the screen was something I needed advice on--that would spread the speakers out to 12' or further . Is this ratio ideal as it is with traditional domes and cones?

The baffle wall is interesting, but also sounds more complex as does IB. I'm going to give it a closer look. In the rear rear of the room is the wall adjacent to my storage room. I haven't framed that wall yet thinking it may be ideal for an IB sub, but something that permanent had me considering other alternatives.

Thank you for your suggestions--angling the walls on each side of the screen will allow for more depth for placing subs in the corners should I choose to go this route.
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post #11 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 04:12 PM
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Four of these  Fi IB318  and a EP4000 to power it. Its really not complex to build an IB, just cut the holes out and insert drivers...Done! If space is a concern then you can build a manifold to house the 4 subs, either way is fine

 

This will give you an idea on how people built there IB.

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/page2IB-Gallery.html

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post #12 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo_envy View Post

I knew my door was a weak link going into the project, but it was already installed with the thought of being able to watch the kids in the theater while enjoying an adult beverage at the bar in mind. In fact, Ted White went as far to say with the current door I shouldn't waste my money on sound proofing. I'm going install sweeps and seals and see how they perform. I'll replace them down the road if I need to.

I only have one dedicated 20 amp circuit to dedicate to amps--I have a feeling I'm going to have to find a way the install additional circuits from the panel on the other side of the finished basement.

BTW--I have followed your build and it's awesome. I'll be taking a more minimalist approach.

As far as a SEOS CD should I be looking to consider matching waveguides and compression drivers since I do like to listen to multi-channel audio?

Thanks for your input.

20amps is more than enough for an atypical AVR + Projector rig and some secondary support equipment; and maybe one or two low powered subs.
Yamaha and Oppo?

I assume you will have wall sockets inside the room with a dedicated 15amps? This would allow for an additional 2 subs, easy. (Just don't vacuum on that circuit with the stuff playing heavy bass.)

I wouldn't say that the soundproofing would be completely wasted, it will definitely help block stuff from the rest of the house (how much god only knows), but whatever is on the other side of that rear door... it is going to get hit by massive theater noise. (I assume it's not a bedroom or anything eek.gif)

If I was you, I would have made that back wall double 2x4.

Matching is always most-ideal, but usually 2-3x more expensive.
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post #13 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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BassThatHZ,

I'm feeding the room with 3 dedicated circuits:

15 amp for 15 mini recessed lights
15 amp for projector and unused plugs
20 amp for receiver, Cinepro, Adcom, and possibly an EP4000

I'll finish the rear wall this weekend, if its not going to be used for IB, and it will be staggered stud with two layers of 5/8 drywall and Green Glue on both sides.
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post #14 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Four of these  Fi IB318  and a EP4000 to power it. Its really not complex to build an IB, just cut the holes out and insert drivers...Done! If space is a concern then you can build a manifold to house the 4 subs, either way is fine

This will give you an idea on how people built there IB.
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/page2IB-Gallery.html

Got it. My drawing is misleading--I was thinking of the entire screen wall being AT screen and grill cloth. Thank you for the link and I'll definitely explore that option. In another string, I saw two LilWreckers laying on their sides under the screen that look interesting. It looks like IB isn't that hard, but you would only be able to take the drivers with you if you move.I have never heard horns subs or IB. I'm up for either. IB does look easier, but it appears to be a one time shot to get it right. With the horn subs there is more flexibility with placement even with their size. Which is easier to integrate with the LCRs and surrounds? The LCRs and surrounds are still undecided at this time.

Avoiding a stage filled with play sand would be a big plus.
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post #15 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 06:36 PM
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the paradigm studio 100 v2 is fine for what it is.

it is however a 4 ohm speaker with sensitivity of
89.5db/2.83v/1m, which translates to 86.5db/1w/1m,
which means that it is not possible to hit full
reference 105db from your main speakers at your
listening position unless you sit 1m from the speaker.

since you will have subwoofers in your theater,
you can trade the low end extension of the studio 100's
for much higher sensitivity above 80hz. that will
provide you with much greater dynamics.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #16 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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How about the center? This is what started me thinking about a complete replacement. If I stuck with the Studios, should I look for another tower to replace the CC? I'm sure I would have to buy a pair and store the extra one.

Just so I understand correctly, if I cross the Studios at 80 they would play closer to reference? So many decisions. Maybe this should be a two phased effort, 1) DIY subs with my existing Paradigms--if I'm content then I'm done, if not 2) full seven speaker replacement with SEOS
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post #17 of 40 Old 06-29-2013, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I hear a lot of talk about "wall flex" and since I'm in the basement today and about to drywall the walls--is there any benefit to first do one layer of OSB or MDF on just the walls behind the screen wall? Even if its poured concrete below grade behind the studs? I'm still undecided on which subs and speaker are going in, but I can't stop the construction progress.

A big thanks to all that have provided advice so far. If there is any interest, I'll document the DIY speaker project if I can ever make a decision. I like the specs on the Zephyr Jay1 has recommended, but for some reason I'm stuck on the keeping all the waveguides and CDs a combination of either the 305 or 306s. This is why The Cheap Thrill is so appealing. Would anyone know if the Fusion-12 Tempest for less $$ will perform almost as well as the Zephyrs?
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post #18 of 40 Old 06-29-2013, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo_envy View Post

How about the center? This is what started me thinking about a complete replacement. If I stuck with the Studios, should I look for another tower to replace the CC? I'm sure I would have to buy a pair and store the extra one.

Just so I understand correctly, if I cross the Studios at 80 they would play closer to reference? So many decisions. Maybe this should be a two phased effort, 1) DIY subs with my existing Paradigms--if I'm content then I'm done, if not 2) full seven speaker replacement with SEOS

 

I think you misunderstood what LTD02 posted. To keep it simple, the Paradigm's will not hit reference at your listening position. The SEOS speakers trade low end extension for high sensitivity. BUT, this is fine because the sub will take care of 80hz and below so you don't need a speaker that can play down low (30hz).

 

 

 

I think the Zephyr uses a better woofer and plays lower so its more of a full range speaker. Jeff Bagby, the designer of the Tempest and Zephyr prefers the Tempest.

Quote:

The Delta Pro is 2.5 dB more sensitive, giving me a 98dB 8 ohm speaker, but won't go as deep. However, I like the midrange and upper bass from it a lot.

 

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?235069-So-who-s-going-to-build-Jeff-Bagby-s-Definimax-12-SEOS-Econowave&p=1876362#post1876362

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post #19 of 40 Old 06-29-2013, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^^^
Thanks for the clarification.

Any advice on my question about the wall composition behind the screen wall?

With everyone's support, I'm starting to narrow down my speaker selection. I'm definitely going to scrap the Studio100 route and BTW they don't sound too bad in the family room right now--the NHT SB3s they replaced have been moved to the garage. Now, I'm looking at the Fusion-12 Tempest for the LCRs.

Thanks for understanding I have never heard any of these speakers and that I'm trying to make the best informed decision. I'm not trying to cross that performance to cost ratio, but I do have high expectations.

I feel this theater's progress is crawling to an inch-a-week pace. I feel if I can make an end state subs and speakers decision, I'll be re-energized and pick up the pace.

Again, thanks to all for the help.
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post #20 of 40 Old 06-29-2013, 10:31 PM
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I don't know anything about constructing walls and what to use.

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post #21 of 40 Old 06-29-2013, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I know this is off topic, but my favorite tequila is Cazadores. My buddies father-in-law brings me a litro from Mexico each year he visits the states. He's 75 and looks forward to a few shots with me when he visits Virginia--what a long drive!
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post #22 of 40 Old 06-30-2013, 07:56 AM
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Enjoying a few shots of great tequila, coupled with good music on the system, is the perfect end of a long road trip! Bad tequila, like Bose, should be avoided at all cost.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #23 of 40 Old 06-30-2013, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo_envy View Post

Is this ratio ideal as it is with traditional domes and cones?

The traditional layout is an equilateral triangle or +/- 30* from the primary LP (probably inherited from simple stereo). With a capable center I'd go slightly wider than +/- 30 degrees.
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post #24 of 40 Old 07-01-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Four of these  Fi IB318  and a EP4000 to power it. Its really not complex to build an IB, just cut the holes out and insert drivers...Done! If space is a concern then you can build a manifold to house the 4 subs, either way is fine

This will give you an idea on how people built there IB.
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/page2IB-Gallery.html
Thanks for the link. The IB was looking like a good route and when I read up a little it looks like 10x vas is needed. If my math is correct, this would require ~544 sq.ft. for the four Fi's. I would like to keep the design just under the screen and to the outside of the left and right speaker. There was a mention of 4x vas, but required more of a sealed room for the rear wave. A manifold placed right below the center channel and screen would work perfectly into my design idea.

Would just two Fi's in a manifold configuration work well in this room? It would take less airspace and I imagine woofer sag from a 4 speaker manifold be less of an issue, if any.
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post #25 of 40 Old 07-01-2013, 03:44 PM
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You can actually do a lot smaller, 200 cu ft for 4 drivers. Here is a comparison between 550cu ft and 200cu ft, both with 1500w.

 

 

You can go as small as you want but the smaller you go, the less output you get down low and QTC also rises. People recommend that you stay close to a QTC of .7. Adding polyfill or fiberglass can also lower the QTC.

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post #26 of 40 Old 07-01-2013, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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That is good to know. The IB does look a lot easier to build than the horn subs--and with either--not having to fill a stage with 3000lbs of play sand is a huge plus. I read that a manifold doesnt rattle the structure as bad and that the sound waves from each woofer arrive at the LP at the same time. Is it true this is why a manifold is preferred over the baffle? I think that a baffle under the screen would be easier to implement.

Thanks for the plot!
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post #27 of 40 Old 07-02-2013, 11:08 AM
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Either approach can work. Opposing drivers in a manifold tend to cancel vibration; reducing physical demands on the wall. Drivers on a flat baffle will shake the wall without mercy...unless you brace the heck out of the wall. (My baffle is heavily braced with 2x6's tied directly to the concrete wall behind it.)


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post #28 of 40 Old 07-09-2013, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I like the idea of IB subs and I'm now concerned about having to do the baffle wall to get enough air space for the subs to breathe. Is it true about it being easier to get a baffle wall design WRONG than it is to get it RIGHT? I was thinking two manifolds on the angled walls just under the left and right speakers--this might place them in the 25% zone.

PNW - Your system looks incredible and I'm sure it sounds even better!
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post #29 of 40 Old 07-09-2013, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm still trying to choose a DIY SEOS speaker and even with their associated value the $$$ add up quickly when looking at all seven speakers.

Should I only look at the high power capacity designs considering I might use my old Cinepro amp? Here's a link to a review with the specs:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_1/cinepro2k5amplifier.html
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post #30 of 40 Old 07-09-2013, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo_envy View Post

I'm still trying to choose a DIY SEOS speaker and even with their associated value the $$$ add up quickly when looking at all seven speakers.

Should I only look at the high power capacity designs considering I might use my old Cinepro amp? Here's a link to a review with the specs:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_1/cinepro2k5amplifier.html

Nothing in their line-up jumps out as something you should avoid with that amp.

Have you narrowed it down at all considering your size, budget, and desired performance limits yet?
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