Custom PSI 12" sub build ideas - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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starting another build this time with a custom 12" from PSI. The specs are below. My question is should i go the passive radiator route or the standard port. I will be powering this build with a Keiga 1000w which has a high pass filter set at 15hz and an optional boost switch of i believe 6db at 25hz. I would l like to tune low 15-18hz and this will be used solely for HT and gaming as it is going in the kids game room. Let me know your thoughts on type and size of enclosure. Open to ideas so lets have em.

Revc = 3.0
Fms = 20.5 Hz
Qes = 0.33
Qms = 5.33
Qts = 0.3131
Sd = 506.75 cm^2( 78.5398 in^2)
Vas = 68.6736 L ( 2.4252 ft^3)
BL = 19.5490 N/A
Mms = 318.1501 g
Sensitivity= 84.2889 dB @1W/1m
Sensitivity= 88.4169 dB @2.83Vrms/1m
Xmax = 32mm
displacement = .16ft^3

the passive radiator specs are as follows:

I have 2 x 12"

Vas = 2.4252 ft^3
Fms = 20.5 Hz
Xmax = 32mm
Qms = 5.33
Sd = 78.5398 in^2

My concern on going a standard port design would be the port noise so that is why I have included the PR information

thanks guys
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post #2 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 06:46 AM
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Do you have enclosure size limitations?
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post #3 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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really the limitation would be on a footprint of 21"w x 24"d
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post #4 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 07:30 AM
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With a pair of 12"s and that footprint I would recommend a dual opposed configuration. Ideally you would want to separate the pair and use them in separate enclosures to aid in evening out the response. If that isn't an option, definitely go DO.
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post #5 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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nah not possible. I have the single 12" driver and a pair of 12" PR's

Byron
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post #6 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

nah not possible. I have the single 12" driver and a pair of 12" PR's

Byron

Dang Byron, I apologize. I thought you had 2 active drivers already. You are well within your physical limitations now.

You can address port noise by keeping the air velocity in check. I am digging your alignment as proposed.
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post #7 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 08:30 AM
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post #8 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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not a problem. My concern on the standard type port deals also with length. I was looking at 2 or 3 ports 4" diameter flared. These lengths get long. So that is why i am now leaning toward the PR option with it. I have done a couple PR projects before and they have turned out well but i believe that when i designed them the enclosure was still on the large side. I say this as i was hitting xmax at a lot less power than i should have been. So this one i would like to nail a size down that will not over extend at low power .So if anyone has time let me know what you come up with on size. I believe i can do well with around 1.8cube going this route but input on this is greatly appreciated. Also not noted above is the RMS is 1500w. Thanks again
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post #9 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

not a problem. My concern on the standard type port deals also with length. I was looking at 2 or 3 ports 4" diameter flared. These lengths get long. So that is why i am now leaning toward the PR option with it. I have done a couple PR projects before and they have turned out well but i believe that when i designed them the enclosure was still on the large side. I say this as i was hitting xmax at a lot less power than i should have been. So this one i would like to nail a size down that will not over extend at low power .So if anyone has time let me know what you come up with on size. I believe i can do well with around 1.8cube going this route but input on this is greatly appreciated. Also not noted above is the RMS is 1500w. Thanks again

I look forward to seeing how this turns out. There are several modeling savvy folks here. I am sure someone will help.
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post #10 of 45 Old 06-28-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah I'll see what the group comes up with as i believe if i go the ported route I would be looking a couple ports 4" around 60+" long which would be a no go. So i believe I will have to go the dual 12" PR route.
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post #11 of 45 Old 06-29-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I've done some modeling but not sure how accurate it is. Last time I did a PR project think my model was a little to large as the sub was hitting Xmax with lower power than it should have so let me know what everyone is thinking on this
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post #12 of 45 Old 06-30-2013, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I've modeled a few different sizes and weight options. I am able to produce the frequency response I am looking for at a few different sizes and weighting options. It appears the smaller I model the smoother the curve the larger I model the more of I dip their is right past the tuning frequency . My question is that is their a down side or a disadvantage To really weighing up the PR's. I can add up to 1800gr to each. Will this cause lag or delay to the sub. I would hate to use the word "muddy" them up, but without a comparison factor I do not really know. I've built numerous sub over the last year and a half which have turned out well in my opinion but I really have nothing to compare them to. The only real big names subs I've had are from the paradigm line and what I have built previously had out performed them by far but I do not think that is saying much. So is their a disadvantage to size of the enclosure and weights that will effect the overall SQ of the sub. Any input or guidence is appreciated. Thanks
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post #13 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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ok last go at this. let me know if there is any input if not I'll move on.
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post #14 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 07:58 AM
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Things have been pretty slow in here the last couple weeks. Have you tried using WinISD to model your design?
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post #15 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah I've modeled up a few different options running from 1.8-3.0 cubic. I am able to get some good information on the winisd but the last project i did with the dual PR's I believe I had the enclosure a little to large as I am hitting my xmax on the driver earlier and with less power than modeled. I posted the pics and info on the forum a bit ago under dual 12" PR. I am also wondering if weighting on the PR's with around 1400gr each would cause a large lag in response. If I model at 3 cube I need around 500gr per each if i move down to say 1.8 cube I will need around 1200gr to each PR. So wondering if there is a up and down side to to much weight on the PR's. Then there is the concern again with over excursion building to large with the setup. I have built around 10 DIY subs over the last year and a half and the design i seem to be having the most problems with is the PR's. I do like what I can get out of them as they seem to be comparable to the ported subs but with a much smaller space. All the subs I have built are for HT use and Gaming use for the kids. The other ones I have just given out to friends as I have become kind of addicted to trying all the different subs out there and just giving it a go.
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post #16 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 08:37 AM
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I am just a reader concerning design, but it is my understanding that the added weight does not create a lag in performance but gives you the ability to tune the enclosures using the PR's instead of a standard port. The amount of weight you would have to add to cause an audible effect is pretty high.

Over excursion is a concern in any build. Not just the larger builds. You can kill any driver through exceeding it's physical limits.

My understanding is the same as yours is about the use of PR's to receive the benefits of a ported enclosure with a smaller cabinet size. I don't see a ton of those kinds of builds here though. Horns or multiple sealed seem to be the chosen method by many here.

Which sized enclosure meets your performance goals and size requirements?
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post #17 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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post #18 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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here is a 2.5 cube with 800gr to each pr
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post #19 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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post #20 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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here is 3 cubic with 600gr to each PR
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post #21 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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post #22 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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here is 2 cubic foot with 900gr to each PR
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post #23 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:41 AM
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It doesn't look like you lose much with the smaller size. 2.5cf Not even a full db averaged and they are similar in tuning.

You can make either one of those fit in your desired footprint. Is excursion in check?
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post #24 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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both sub and PR excursion model up to be well within spec at the 1000w i have modeled. I know its a model as i went with this on another sub with a dual PR setup and was hitting xmax with only putting about 200w to it. Although the other project the rms on the sub was only 600w but should have been able to handle the 200w+ i was trying to throw at it at moderate listening levels. That is why i am a little gun shy
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post #25 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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also a note on my previous project i am using a bash 500w plate amp. I did modify it to to a Q of 1.9 with a 5db boost around around 20hz. I wonder if this may be why I am getting the over excursion not sure though.
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post #26 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstloukal1 View Post

both sub and PR excursion model up to be well within spec at the 1000w i have modeled. I know its a model as i went with this on another sub with a dual PR setup and was hitting xmax with only putting about 200w to it. Although the other project the rms on the sub was only 600w but should have been able to handle the 200w+ i was trying to throw at it at moderate listening levels. That is why i am a little gun shy

It is hard to say why the other design was unsuccessful. Unless there is some aspect of the design that is being overlooked and not compensated for. I have never used any psi drivers, so I cannot comment on the reliability of their listed specs.
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post #27 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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the other design was not using a psi sub. I was from another company that does automotive subs. I just dont want to post the name at this point as i believe this issue is with my design or amp modification and not the sub itself. I could be wrong though and be beating myself up over this when it is a faulty driver itself. What i think i will do with the other design is pull the sub and fill in the space.Currently that enclosure is 2.4 cube and will try move it down to 1.8 cube. I believe i have room internally in the sub to fill with a few cut down 2 x 4's to take the excess space to get down to the 1.8 cube. will have to check though
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post #28 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 11:09 AM
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I would say the issue with your other set up is a function of the boost, enclosure size and tuning. especially without know the tuning frequency or the speaker used mechanical limitations. if you had the tune above 20 hertz and that boost, you simply may have been asking to much of a driver unloading.

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post #29 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 11:11 AM
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I use a similar mechanical specc'd (xmax) 15" driver with dual CSS PR's. Love the ability to tune without removal. Good luck on this one!! I will be watching!

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post #30 of 45 Old 07-02-2013, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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