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post #271 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

In my super UN-technical speak, isn't the difference between the Noesis and Seos horns? The Noesis has an almost square profile where the seos has an exagerated rectangular profile. So in my brain that means the Noesis would have less difference when the WG is rotated 90 degrees vs the SEOS.

I'm sure Tux et. al. can explain that WAY better.

Dispersion Pattern maybe?


Edit: Yeah Sibuna, that.

If the horn pattern is the only issue here, then why not use a square horn for the Center? Leave the LR with the SEOS...


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post #272 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 07:26 AM
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Then it wouldn't be a SEOS design. It would also require a new x-over. In that case why wouldn't you just use another proven design already out there?
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post #273 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, first off, not to step on any ones toes, but Jeff can't do it. The laws of physics are the same for everyone. People are using the Fusion 8 as a center, and its probably fine, but not hifi.

As for the 228, at 1000hz it probably has lobing, although the 8" woofers will help here. It's all physics. What are the dimensions, what are the wavelengths. That's what it comes down to. This speaker also suffers from lobing. You can see the nulls at 40 degrees.

What this speaker and the 228 do is reduce the problem. The 228 uses a robust CD considering the woofer output to cross so low. This speaker uses mids. If you reduce the problem enough, then the nulls are out past the seating range. If someone asked if this speaker is ok with a 8' listening distance and a 15' wide seating area, I'd say no. Because someone would be sitting in a huge null and have a hard time hearing words. Would it work? Well, ya, it would make sound. Even good sound. But not great sound like DIYers want. And I think that's part of the question, people listen to bad centers all the time, and they work. But they don't work great...

For the record, I think the noesis designs are very good engineering. I'd really like to hear a pair.
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post #274 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

If the horn pattern is the only issue here, then why not use a square horn for the Center? Leave the LR with the SEOS...

You said yourself you think identical speakers are important.
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post #275 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 09:11 AM
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Okay.. so the bottom line is, an MTM can be made for a center, but not with the SEOS... thanks...


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post #276 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

You said yourself you think identical speakers are important.

Yes it is.. that's why I have the Noesis LCR. But those will eventually go behind the screen. I am now looking for a couple more 5.1 for my room and hall. And the SEOS seems like a great choice considering they are great and affordable...

The only thing missing is the center... and I liked the idea of an identical center (even flipped on it's back)... and that's why i keep asking about an MTM center... if it can't be done, then it can't be done...


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post #277 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Okay.. so the bottom line is, an MTM can be made for a center, but not with the SEOS... thanks...

No, that's not it, you're missing the point. You can flip any speaker over and use it for a center channel and it will work. Doesn't mean it's optimal. You can rearrange any left or right speaker to make it look like a center channel and it will work, doesn't mean it's optimal.

Speaker companies don't start out by letting people know that center channels are a compromise. But DIY speaker designers will tell you this. If companies did, they wouldn't sell many speakers. wink.gif Fact is, the average person doesn't have a clue what the DIY speaker designers are talking about when they say 'lobing issues', 'comb filtering', or all that other technical stuff.

What they hear is exactly what you heard......'the speaker must not be great because the designer just said it was a compromise'. Guess what? Center channels are a compromise......the speaker companies just don't come out and say it.

Tux is his own hardest critic.
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post #278 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

No, that's not it, you're missing the point. You can flip any speaker over and use it for a center channel and it will work. Doesn't mean it's optimal. You can rearrange any left or right speaker to make it look like a center channel and it will work, doesn't mean it's optimal.

Speaker companies don't start out by letting people know that center channels are a compromise. But DIY speaker designers will tell you this. If companies did, they wouldn't sell many speakers. wink.gif Fact is, the average person doesn't have a clue what the DIY speaker designers are talking about when they say 'lobing issues', 'comb filtering', or all that other technical stuff.

What they hear is exactly what you heard......'the speaker must not be great because the designer just said it was a compromise'. Guess what? Center channels are a compromise......the speaker companies just don't come out and say it.

Tux is his own hardest critic.

Thanks Erich. Great way of putting it. That's one of the main reasons I decided to do 3 tempests up front. Could I have used an MTM center? Yep. Would it have sounded great? Yep. But I would have always been wondering what a more optimal setup would sound like.
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post #279 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

No, that's not it, you're missing the point. You can flip any speaker over and use it for a center channel and it will work. Doesn't mean it's optimal. You can rearrange any left or right speaker to make it look like a center channel and it will work, doesn't mean it's optimal.

Speaker companies don't start out by letting people know that center channels are a compromise. But DIY speaker designers will tell you this. If companies did, they wouldn't sell many speakers. wink.gif Fact is, the average person doesn't have a clue what the DIY speaker designers are talking about when they say 'lobing issues', 'comb filtering', or all that other technical stuff.

What they hear is exactly what you heard......'the speaker must not be great because the designer just said it was a compromise'. Guess what? Center channels are a compromise......the speaker companies just don't come out and say it.

Tux is his own hardest critic.

Ah, it's starting to be clear to me now... Basically, MTM can indeed be centers.. just not optimal... well, i guess my version of flipping them over sounds great to me...

I'll be interested in seeing how this purpose built center sounds like compared to an MTM flipped on it's side... biggrin.gif


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post #280 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 11:24 AM
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"Basically, MTM can indeed be centers.. just not optimal..."

whenever you have two sources playing the same content, if you are the same distance to each source, the wavelengths will be "in phase". the sound will combine. all will be good.

however, there will be points in space where the distance to the listener will be such that one source will be 1/2 wavelength greater than the distance to the other source. when this occurs, the wavelengths will be "out of phase". the sound will cancel. you will hear little or nothing. all will no longer be good.

the problem gets worse, the higher the frequencies involved (because they are shorter and shorter in distance) which means even small differences in distance to each source can create cancellations.

the problem gets worse, the further apart the sources are (because that too increases the difference in distance from one source to another unless you are sitting dead on center).

the noesis is crossed over very low, which is enabled by its expensive c.d. as a result, the wavelengths are large relative to the difference in distance from the left driver to the right driver. so unless you are almost 90 degrees sideways from the speaker, you get no meaningful cancellations.

the 8" mtm uses a coaxial driver in the center which also pushes the crossover point (from the coaxial center to the outer drivers) down to the point where the wave is large. so again, the wavelengths are large relative to the difference in distance from the left driver to the right driver. so unless you are almost 90 degrees sideways from the speaker, you get no meaningful cancellations.

here is a picture of two sources radiating waves.

the red dots show the angles where the waves will add constructively. the blue dots show where one wave will be 180 out of phase with the other and cause a cancellation.



the pattern of where those red and blue dots occur is, again, based on the frequencies the drivers are producing and the spacing in between the drivers.

for something like an mtm with the seos12 in the middle and a crossover point of about 1khz, the first set of cancellations occurs at about 30 degrees off axis. inside that window and you are pretty much fine.

outside that window and you have to consider what is going on in the room. in a very well treated room with minimal reflections, some folks will be able to pick out the point of cancellation. in most real rooms, there is sound bouncing off everything creating a real mess of a frequency response with peaks and dips everywhere. if that is the case, having such a cancellation could be good, bad, or neutral depending on all the other junk.

the original concept for the mtm was design by a guy called d'appolito. the concept was to use destructive interference from the two drivers in a horizontal arrangement to minimize reflections off the walls around the crossover frequency.



and what happens if you don't do it right:



source: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=gem_mod.html

we will hope that whoever puts together the seos mtm center does it right. :-)

cheers.

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post #281 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 11:34 AM
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But how often do we have someone watching beyond 30 degrees ? For myself , never. If you have a home theater with seating for 8-10 then yes that's a problem . But if you have a room that big you probably have room for a vertical center.
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post #282 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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We are still simplifying things. There's also the reflected sound frequency response. Or the fact that you may not sit at 30 degrees right in the null, but maybe at 20 degrees where the null starts to form. See those circle polars on the first post, you don't see those often. Wanna know why? Cause they're very incriminating. If you saw a circle polar for a cheapie Polk center channel and understood it, you'd see how bad it really is. The problem is when you sit down for a listen, sure sounds great. Maybe even amazing. But you're thinking about the bass and the treble and the salesman put you in the money seat. Try listening to a recording of a female saying "That's a sweet treat". Listen right on axis. Then move over two seats. All of a sudden it sounds more like "fath's uh seet chreet". Your brain might fill it in to sound better if you're watching her lips move, but take away that image and your brain will become confused.

Nothing wrong with a SEOS MTM. I'd like to do one. Part of the problem is cost / benefit ratio. Part of it is size. But when you flip it on the side...



That's an MTM I did with 5.25" woofers. Even bigger woofers would be much worse.

I don't even like those nulls when orientated vertically. People say why? I honestly can't tell you what sounds different, but all the speakers I've heard with good wide lobes sound better. There's plenty of people who disagree though.
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post #283 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 02:34 PM
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I did a little sketchup mockup of a center channel and a platform for seating of five in two rows for a total of ten people.



The middle six seats are well within 20 degrees of axis. Seats second from the edge are on the 20-30 degree , and outer seats are at 30 degrees. Seating is ten feet back from the speaker. I guess I don't have enough friends since I have never had more then six people adults watching a movie at one time. I would guess that 98% of home theater use for DIY folks would have less then six people watching. I don't count kids since there generally not picky about sound like we are. I do throw a superbowl party with a dozen people but were all gunned biggrin.gif. Ideally i would have a vertical center. I don't think I am missing anything with six people in prime seating
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post #284 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 02:39 PM
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It would probably not be an ideal speaker for my setup, which I believe is what Tux is warning about. I need 90 degree horizontal to reach both edges of my couch. Kinda sad, as I'd love to build these and compare to my Tempests.




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post #285 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 02:41 PM
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Oh and btw, all commercial 2 way MTM center speakers (with dome tweeters atleast) suffer from this problem....
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post #286 of 1922 Old 01-16-2014, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Alf, you need a coax or a really really low XO tongue.gif
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post #287 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 06:57 AM
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Tux,

Would I be wrong in saying that an MTM in any orientation has this problem. It is that when we put the speaker vertical we don't notice it as much because we can't get to the angle which the lobing shows up?

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #288 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 07:18 AM
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In my case I will be buying the Tux10-99 for a LCR application
The LR will be 10 ft away from mlp and the Center channel (horizontally) will be 9 ft from mlp

What can one expect with the center channel being in a horizontal position like me?

Thanks


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post #289 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Trepidation. You're right, except where the XO is very low. Which is often hard to do. That's why we go 3 way. But if you can get the tweeter to cross low enough relative to the physical geometry of the speaker, no problem.

Fatshaft. You can expect no problems with an 8 foot wide listening range. 4 feet either side. Probably a little wider even.
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post #290 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Fatshaft. You can expect no problems with an 8 foot wide listening range. 4 feet either side. Probably a little wider even.

Tks for your response
Don't think I mentioned this before but I can't wait to get these smile.gif


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post #291 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Basically, MTM can indeed be centers.. just not optimal..."

you don't understand the issue, so you are still confused. :-)

whenever you have two sources playing the same content, if you are the same distance to each source, the wavelengths will be "in phase". the sound will combine. all will be good.

however, there will be points in space where the distance to the listener will be such that one source will be 1/2 wavelength greater than the distance to the other source. when this occurs, the wavelengths will be "out of phase". the sound will cancel. you will hear little or nothing. all will no longer be good.

the problem gets worse, the higher the frequencies involved (because they are shorter and shorter in distance) which means even small differences in distance to each source can create cancellations.

the problem gets worse, the further apart the sources are (because that too increases the difference in distance from one source to another unless you are sitting dead on center).

the noesis is crossed over very low, which is enabled by its expensive c.d. as a result, the wavelengths are large relative to the difference in distance from the left driver to the right driver. so unless you are almost 90 degrees sideways from the speaker, you get no meaningful cancellations.

the 8" mtm uses a coaxial driver in the center which also pushes the crossover point (from the coaxial center to the outer drivers) down to the point where the wave is large. so again, the wavelengths are large relative to the difference in distance from the left driver to the right driver. so unless you are almost 90 degrees sideways from the speaker, you get no meaningful cancellations.

here is a picture of two sources radiating waves.

the red dots show the angles where the waves will add constructively. the blue dots show where one wave will be 180 out of phase with the other and cause a cancellation.



the pattern of where those red and blue dots occur is, again, based on the frequencies the drivers are producing and the spacing in between the drivers.

for something like an mtm with the seos12 in the middle and a crossover point of about 1khz, the first set of cancellations occurs at about 30 degrees off axis. inside that window and you are pretty much fine.

outside that window and you have to consider what is going on in the room. in a very well treated room with minimal reflections, some folks will be able to pick out the point of cancellation. in most real rooms, there is sound bouncing off everything creating a real mess of a frequency response with peaks and dips everywhere. if that is the case, having such a cancellation could be good, bad, or neutral depending on all the other junk.

the original concept for the mtm was design by a guy called d'appolito. the concept was to use destructive interference from the two drivers in a horizontal arrangement to minimize reflections off the walls around the crossover frequency.



and what happens if you don't do it right:



source: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=gem_mod.html

we will hope that whoever puts together the seos mtm center does it right. :-)

cheers.

LT, I don't know how you do it, but you're always so clear in your explanations.

You must have been a professor in your past life tongue.gif

I am now perfectly clear on what lobing means (with your charts).

Here's my conclusion based on all these... I might be wrong.

I purposely walk left to right on my MTM placed horizontally...

And guess what? No 'quality' issues, only 'quantitative'.. ie, it gets softer as you move further away from the waveguide... (I have not modified my waveguide for a wider angle)...

Now, I have heard several type 'horizontal' center.. and again, not much real issues...

So, here's what I am thinking... if you run a particular 'test tone' of a single frequency, then sure, you'll hear drastic 'nulls', etc... but music is dynamic, and even though you're playing the same source from both left and right woofers, the frequency range is so huge that they cross 'at different locations'... not all at one location.. so, it's like having a tiny amount of 'distortion' on those 'crosshairs'... but minor.. and our brain just shrug it off... in fact, each 'null' might be less than the 'amount of time' we can even perceive... before another 'frequency' comes along...

I totally think that an MTM will just work... maybe not 'perfect' but near perfect in any real life circumstances that it makes not much of a difference to most people... maybe those that study 'charts' might take offence on the slightest issue...

Have anyone actually heard a good MTM vertical, and then it suddenly sucks when laid horizontal? I haven't... not in real application... (test tones maybe)...

Ok, not sure if I even explain myself clearly or not... tongue.gif All I am saying is that you're not going to hear vocals or music so distorted that it's 'clearly rubbish'... tongue.gif

ps: I love that someone is taking the time to build the perfect center, though... i will be likely going to order this one if it turns out sounding great... which i think it'll be... smile.gif


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post #292 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 08:25 AM
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Hey Tux, would the 8" Volt be a good recommendation for a center with SEOS 12/ Deltalite L&R? My room is like Alf's.
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post #293 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 10:42 AM
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Absolutely not Louis. The v8/10 has the DNA 105. Have you seen a picture of that thing compared to the DNA 360? The 105 is a budget model. As is the coax woofer. These v8/10 coax's cannot keep up with a well designed two way like the deltalite 12 kit. Nor will they be timbre matched. It would be silly to think otherwise.
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post #294 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

Absolutely not Louis. The v8/10 has the DNA 105. Have you seen a picture of that thing compared to the DNA 360? The 105 is a budget model. As is the coax woofer. These v8/10 coax's cannot keep up with a well designed two way like the deltalite 12 kit. Nor will they be timbre matched. It would be silly to think otherwise.

confused.gif Have you heard any speakers using that driver? The 105 is quite nice and it's certainly not a budget model. Every designer that has used it was surprised. And the Eminence coaxial woofers are used in some very high end speakers.

The DNA-105 is small because it uses neo magnets, but the Volts will put out more volume than most can handle for home use. Have you seen the compression driver used on the back of the $330 FaitalPro coaxial? It's the same size as the DNA-105, maybe even a little flatter.


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post #295 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 01:38 PM
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I wouldn't specify anything on the DIYSOUNDGROUP as budget model. When I think budget model I think of offshore tools that last a week or two and break. cool.gif
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post #296 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 01:52 PM
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Yes, I have heard them.

I think you guys are confusing value with budget.

I also believe the point of my post is being ignored. Those coaxials are not a timbre match and can't be recommended unless that's all he has room for.

Maybe the tone of my post was a little off, and if so, I apologize.

For the record, I plan to try out a pair of the v8s as surrounds.

Cheers.
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post #297 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I think a little more middle of the road response would be:

The coax will solve your lobing issues related to such wide seating, but you'll (as Alf said) not be timbre matched and have less capability (in arguable the most important channel).

I'd say living with the lobing issues may be less of a compromise than the above. But that would be where you out your priorities. If twice a year a kid sits on those outboard seats, well maybe a null isn't such an issue. If that's YOUR seat, make sure you're not sitting in a null.
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post #298 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Coolgeek, you're now getting somewhere. Is it just a chart, or does it actually matter?

Well, in a way I agree but also disagree. When it comes to dialogue I find nulls very distorting. Let me clarify. Distortion is often something we perceive as obvious crap. But nulls are often difficult to hear that something is wrong. What happens is during dialogue you have a difficult time hearing the words. We usually make up excuses for the speaker like, the mix suck, or its Stallone's lisp. Reality is though, the speaker has a frequency response problem. A null.

Believe it or not, it's difficult to hear with music. But if you try, try listening to a specific instrument, like a guitar, and walk back and forth.

Also, you have the noesis right? That speaker will work afaik so not a great test. You'll have to try with a different MTM.

I do agree with you in the sense that its not a deal killer. You will get decent sound from a good MTM on its side. But hey, this is the DIY forum. We don't do decent wink.gif
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post #299 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Coolgeek, you're now getting somewhere. Is it just a chart, or does it actually matter?

Well, in a way I agree but also disagree. When it comes to dialogue I find nulls very distorting. Let me clarify. Distortion is often something we perceive as obvious crap. But nulls are often difficult to hear that something is wrong. What happens is during dialogue you have a difficult time hearing the words. We usually make up excuses for the speaker like, the mix suck, or its Stallone's lisp. Reality is though, the speaker has a frequency response problem. A null.

Believe it or not, it's difficult to hear with music. But if you try, try listening to a specific instrument, like a guitar, and walk back and forth.

Also, you have the noesis right? That speaker will work afaik so not a great test. You'll have to try with a different MTM.

I do agree with you in the sense that its not a deal killer. You will get decent sound from a good MTM on its side. But hey, this is the DIY forum. We don't do decent wink.gif

Tux,

I would definitely love to get one of your center channel kit from Erich, (if he will ship it to me). It does look formidable. biggrin.gif

And you're right about DIY means the 'absolute best possible'.

I was just suggesting to Erich that it may not be a bad idea to have sets LCR (based on width/sizes) such as starting from 6 inches (maybe even 4 inches for very small rooms), all the way to 12 inches MTM designs (each with an option to rotate the SEOS waveguide, or have a different waveguide that works well for a wider dispersion) as center. That way, it's sort of a whole set. And I think for most, chasing that last 5% may not be necessary, or, if it has to be a totally different design, might be harder / more expensive to assemble, etc.

However, perhaps making dedicated centers for 6 inch up to your 12 inch might work as well. The difference is with an MTM you can keep the 'height' of the center as low as possible. perhaps an 8 inch driver can be put in a 9 inch height box... etc.


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post #300 of 1922 Old 01-17-2014, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, I'm not sure why a designer would go that direction. What's so great about MTM that you desire this? What's wrong with just doing it right - 3-way? There's height increase here. 12" is what it would have been regardless. Maybe I could have gone 11.5".

I'm not seeing what so appealing about an MTM aside from maybe some cost savings over a WTMW. But the beefier CD required would probably bring that back to zero.
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