A 3 way 99db multi configurable SEOS design - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Give us a good review when you get them together. You have heard a lot of speakers so your review is valuable.

Will do sir. I'm going to come up with the design of the cabinets over the next few days or so. I do want to build my surrounds first, which are the TD15/dna360 custom job, but those will be done this weekend. The Tux will get lots of attention to be sure it's done well based on the fact that it'll be in the living room. It will be interesting to compare the above two with each other though. The cost is similar, with the TD15 build I'm doing being a bit more...$450 with the group buy discounts I got on the woofers. The 1099 will have the advantage in the area of placement though since it's been so well designed by Tux to have the horizontal center all laid out. I'll report back soon.


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post #632 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 07:05 PM
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I've started to layout the crossover...here are a couple of initial layouts. I'm going back and forth between the schematic from Fatshaft's thread and the ideal inductor layout diagram that has been floating around. It still needs work but I didn't have much time tonight.




Suggestions are welcome. smile.gif


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post #633 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 07:14 PM
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When you have the final design can you take really good pics of both sides ? A lot of people will want to see those pics.
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post #634 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 07:27 PM
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There will be an option for the front baffle layout to be TMWW in case anyone needs that. TMW as well.

After a few more people hear the speakers, and things get worked out with the cabinet and crossover assembly, I can look into the custom PCB's and flat packs.

These would be the biggest speaker flat packs I've done and of course didn't want to get them cut if demand wasn't very good. As much as I'd like to get flat packs for every single idea we come up with, it's not feasible with shop space and costs. So I have to be some what selective on what I can do right now.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.

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post #635 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

There will be an option for the front baffle layout to be TMWW in case anyone needs that. TMW as well.

I like the look of TMWW much better. :thumbup:
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post #636 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 07:36 PM
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Custom pcbs would help a lot
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post #637 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Probably the last one dtsdig.
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post #638 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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As to the question about my Celestion TMM build. I've briefly discussed this in my build thread, but here's some more detail.

The 1099 is really quite good. It's the best speaker I've ever built and possibly the best I've heard. I said that earlier in this thread, so nothing new. And of course that bold statement comes with caveats (requires a quality subwoofer system). Some might say, "but it only uses $80 woofers, the Celestions are $130???". Ya but it doesn't work that way. What makes a speaker good is the overall execution, concept, goals, etc. As an example. The noesis 212 generated buzz in the DIY community, not because it's just another speaker that has high output, but because the concept is truly great and works really well. There's nothing revolutionary about the 1099, but there are some features about it that are great, that raise it into the category of "this might be the best thing I've ever heard". First is the dual woofers in the WTMW which cancel ceiling and floor reflections. Speakers like the statements also share this feature. Next is the side by side mids. Very difficult to work with, but you get the clarity of a 5" mids, with the output of two of them. Last is that its a 3 way SEOS. The only one I'm aware of. Being 3 way relieves the midrange from IMD and increases power handling (decreases compression). The result was hearing right through and into the recording like the musicians were right in front of me.

Ok, the TMM (possibly MTM). Well, it has two 12" woofers which is an incredible amount of mid bass capability. I don't even have both woofers going yet and it's really got punch. Two is blow knock my socks off. But if my audio memory serves me well (it never does though, keep that in mind), the 1099 was no slouch. That thing just went up and up and up. It too has mid bass output more than same people need (I know that's not us). Just ask fatshaft. He's now running them full range. But indeed, the dual 12s should over take the 1099 in mid bass, by a noticeable and significant margin.

The TMM will also carry directivity a couple hundred hz lower than the 1099. The 1099 is narrow, and directivity is sacrificed as a result. But if I may butt in my personal opinion here, I personally don't find directivity to be a significant criteria below about 700hz. I can explain that if anyone cares. Never-the-less, it is worth noting as all else equal, greater directivity is an advantage.

And that's it. The TMM offers nothing else over the 1099.

In summary:

1099
Celing/floor reflection canceling
Dedicated midrange with two small mids.
Worked out really well IMO.

TMM
Mid bass king
Directivity.

Sorry I can't tell you which one I ultimately prefer, but the TMM isn't done. I will say though, I'm NOT betting on the TMM. I know I know. Why the heck am I building the TMM?? Cause I can, cause I want to do some PA work, and cause I wanted to try the Celestion. Now that I think about it... Those are dumb reasons.
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post #639 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 08:06 PM
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The tmm your ultimate favorite. Mmmmm.
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post #640 of 2055 Old 04-15-2014, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh I should add one more thing. If there's interest in this TMM as some kind of kit or something, I haven't spoken a word to Erich about this speaker. There's no plans to offer it as a kit. So don't wait around for a kit.
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post #641 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
I've started to layout the crossover...here are a couple of initial layouts. I'm going back and forth between the schematic from Fatshaft's thread and the ideal inductor layout diagram that has been floating around. It still needs work but I didn't have much time tonight.

Does anyone find anything wrong with this plan:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1479331/a-3-way-99db-multi-configurable-seos-design/600#post_24610963

I don't have the electronics experience that others here have, so I just want to make sure that my plan will work without issues...smile.gif The board fits through the waveguide opening, it mounts near the mids, not the HF compression driver, and is totally removable and serviceable.
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Last is that its a 3 way SEOS. The only one I'm aware of.

If I understand correctly, a SEOS waveguide is in actuality a constant directivity horn, is it not? If I am correct, then the Unity Horns from 10 years ago represent a 3 way "SEOS" design. The problem with the Unities is that the mids are mounted right on the sides of the constant directivity horn and utilize the horn for dispersion of the mids, which is in opposition to your direct radiating mids...My bet is that your design will be better, at least for use as a center speaker, and *may* turn out to be better all around...smile.gif

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post #642 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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That looks good Bob. I can't see the wires, but the layout looks great.
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post #643 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 06:59 AM
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It's not wired yet...I just wanted to make sure that my plan was ok before committing myself 100%...smile.gif

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post #644 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 07:37 AM
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More crossover musings..... Thoughts?



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post #645 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Thoughts?
Unsure without seeing the actual circuit.

This is reflective of personal implementation:
I tend to follow the usual schematic Left ( input ) to Right ( output ) orientation and establish +/- buses and create basically a layout that resembles the schematic.

"Beware of Salesmen: They are the modern Svengali, immune to Science and Reality"
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post #646 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by WVSyd View Post

Unsure without seeing the actual circuit.

This is reflective of personal implementation:
I tend to follow the usual schematic Left ( input ) to Right ( output ) orientation and establish +/- buses and create basically a layout that resembles the schematic.

Nothing is wired at all yet. I am just trying to decide on what physical layout works well enough. I hear you about the traditional layout techniques and those are good methods to follow for what we are doing here. That's where I started last night.
The company I work for is on the cutting edge with electronics in the RF/VHF/UHF arena and I've seen lots of designs that don't follow those traditions in the sense that you laid out, but instead are designed very creatively with the use of real estate and layout (think circular, 3 dimensional, geometric, etc.) Circuit layout design is far more critical with regards to radiation patterns and interference when dealing with ultra high frequencies compared to what a speaker crossover requires, but it's still neat to think about, nonetheless. smile.gif


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post #647 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 08:34 AM
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Yes, I've worked with Radio/TV and Microwave circuits and because of the frequency ranges involved - those ARE valid considerations for those applications.
Fortunately this is a fairly low frequency power app and those aspects don't have to be considered biggrin.gif

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post #648 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 08:41 AM
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Yes, I've worked with Radio/TV and Microwave circuits and because of the frequency ranges involved - those ARE valid considerations for those applications.
Fortunately this is a fairly low frequency power app and those aspects don't have to be considered biggrin.gif

Exactly!


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post #649 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 09:10 AM
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Hey there, DTS.
I am kicking around placing the XO on two smaller boards.


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post #650 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 09:12 AM
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I am kicking around placing the XO on two smaller boards.
Did that before - does offer advantages

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post #651 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 09:17 AM
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More crossover musings..... Thoughts?

I think that your .33 mH inductor needs to be turned on its side, just like the .5 mH inductor, or the field
will interact with the 2.0 mH inductor - or you could just use Fatshaft's or my layout...the work has already been done for you by Anthony Gomez and Tux.

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post #652 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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^ good suggestion.
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post #653 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dtsdig View Post

More crossover musings..... Thoughts?


http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm


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post #654 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I think that your .33 mH inductor needs to be turned on its side, just like the .5 mH inductor, or the field
will interact with the 2.0 mH inductor - or you could just use Fatshaft's or my layout...the work has already been done for you by Anthony Gomez and Tux.

I agree about the .33mH. I actually had it that way before I took the photo. The only difference between their layouts and mine is that I'm using a board that's only 8" x7" making it necessary to compact things a bit further.


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post #655 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm


I've been using that diagram from the start. Thanks for the link! smile.gif


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post #656 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 11:05 AM
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I like the look of this one:



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post #657 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The TMM will also carry directivity a couple hundred hz lower than the 1099. The 1099 is narrow, and directivity is sacrificed as a result. But if I may butt in my personal opinion here, I personally don't find directivity to be a significant criteria below about 700hz. I can explain that if anyone cares. Never-the-less, it is worth noting as all else equal, greater directivity is an advantage.

I care. tongue.gif

So let's hear it!

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #658 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha, ok. I'll probably be heckled for this by people smarter than me.

First, think about some of the things we know about audio reproduction:

1. Imaging ques are strongest in the 1 to 4khz region (I may have that boundary wrong, but surely higher than 1khz);
2. The room starts to have notable influence below 500hz and significant influence below 250hz;
3. A 250hz wavelength is 1.3m (4.5ft) long;
4. Stereos have to fit budgets and space constraints.

So based on the above, we certainly appreciate that controlled directivity to 1khz or lower is a good thing. Keeps the sound focused, off the walls, off the cabinet, etc. This will hopefully give use the imaging we're looking for. Also based on the above, having directivity below 250hz will help us clean up the mess most rooms cause. Keep the sound focused and off the walls, then it can't corrupt it. Great. No problem. Oh wait, 250hz is a pretty long wavelength. How are you gonna get directivity below 250hz? There are a few way... but they get very expensive and very complex. So then based on point 4 above, most of us are stuck with 10, 12, maybe 15" two or three ways. Which means we're not going to be able to use directivity to help point 2. We might get some benefit in the 250 to 500hz range, but not much. And again, it'll mean a big expensive speaker even for those wavelengths.

So what I figure/enjoy, is a practical size (10", maybe 12) and tackle number 2 a different way (eq, treatment, flanking woofers, etc.). This way we achieve great imaging, fit our budget and size constraints, and the room is handled differently. Sure, if you can handle 15" woofers and monster horns, all the power to you. I woulnd't say it's a waste. But I don't get to excited about it.
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post #659 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 02:54 PM
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I am building a 1099 crossover for blah450, I am probably going to make the woofer section a small separate board so I don't need to try and cram all the inductors onto one board. This is what I am thinking I may use for the layout:


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post #660 of 2055 Old 04-16-2014, 03:17 PM
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So what I figure/enjoy, is a practical size (10", maybe 12) and tackle number 2 a different way (eq, treatment, flanking woofers, etc.). This way we achieve great imaging, fit our budget and size constraints, and the room is handled differently. Sure, if you can handle 15" woofers and monster horns, all the power to you. I woulnd't say it's a waste. But I don't get to excited about it.

I agree. For me, practicality of size is something that I need and want. I already have the 15" woofers and monster horns, and don't get me wrong, they sound GREAT. As I have mentioned several times already, the problem is that when you take one of those setups, turn it sideways, and place it on the floor, then it doesn't sound quite right, and for sure it is not practical. Heck, even my surrounds weigh over 100 pounds each and required 3 people to get them mounted and set up correctly - not very practical. If your room is huge, like my friend's ~6000 cu. ft. room, then it works a little better, but in small to moderate rooms these speakers are just too big and heavy and take up too much real estate.

I can't wait to get the 1099 center up and running - no more overly large cabinet, no more compromising of placement due to size and weight, and no stubbing my toes on a rock hard black cabinet that I can't see in the dark. If the 1099 center works out as well as I expect, then I will replace my main left and right speakers, and then eventually the surrounds. If that happens, I will be glad to offer you guys about a half ton of big speakers at a very nice price, as long as you have a good sized truck and at least one other person to help you move them...biggrin.gif

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