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post #721 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 02:01 PM
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What are you using to power the 1099?
I am using a Sherbourne 7 channel amp (I forgot the model number) - 200 WPC @ 8 ohms and 400 WPC @ 4 ohms, all channels driven - very clean with lots of headroom...smile.gif
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post #722 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 02:14 PM
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I know they're not even close to being in the same price range but the new 215RT full range speakers from JTR would allow you to run an LCR setup for HT use the plays flat to 20hz.
Just out of curiosity, why would I want to do that? For what reason? I would still need a subwoofer for my surrounds. And I would be stuck with the positioning of the LCR - what if those positions just happened to create a ragged low bass response due to the reinforcing and canceling of low frequencies? Then what?

Extremely low bass (I forgot the cutoff frequency - it is not that low, either) is non directional - you can not tell where it is coming from, so channeling that material into subwoofers that have been optimally placed makes a lot of sense. As long as you don't run your subs into the higher, *directional* frequencies, then the benefits of subwoofers versus full range become significant.

In my humble, old man opinion, the only time I would use full range speakers would be in a strictly 2 channel system, like the systems I had 40 years ago when I was in college.
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post #723 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Just out of curiosity, why would I want to do that? For what reason? I would still need a subwoofer for my surrounds. And I would be stuck with the positioning of the LCR - what if those positions just happened to create a ragged low bass response due to the reinforcing and canceling of low frequencies? Then what?

Extremely low bass (I forgot the cutoff frequency - it is not that low, either) is non directional - you can not tell where it is coming from, so channeling that material into subwoofers that have been optimally placed makes a lot of sense. As long as you don't run your subs into the higher, *directional* frequencies, then the benefits of subwoofers versus full range become significant.

In my humble, old man opinion, the only time I would use full range speakers would be in a strictly 2 channel system, like the systems I had 40 years ago when I was in college.

if you really want the answers, post those questions in the JTR thread. You'll get all answers there, I dont really want this thread to get side tracked. I simply was posting to say there is speakers now that are fully capable to play flat to 20hz. Fellow forum memeber RMK went from an LCR plus dual Orbit Shifters to just running only three of the 215RT's and loves it. He had a small GTG when he first got them and guys were amazed by the bass performance of them. I actually think they were flat to 18hz.
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post #724 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I know they're not even close to being in the same price range but the new 215RT full range speakers from JTR would allow you to run an LCR setup for HT use the plays flat to 20hz.

 

Well, it gets right back to what tuxedocivic said earlier in the thread about the design goal of the 1099...

 

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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The old saying: Size, cost, bass. Pick two. Well, these are small and affordable. The bass got dropped.

 

The 1099 delivers on size and cost.  Since many of us will be pairing these with subs, it works out beautifully.  I think Bob did an excellent job of reinforcing the point with his review.  With an MSRP of $5299 ($6499 automotive finishes) each and 72″x17″x22.5″ dimensions, I don't think bringing up 215RT is relevant because that speaker is obviously focused on other design goals.

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post #725 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure its a nice speaker. But its a heck of a lot bigger. I could do a 15xx but I don't feel the need.

I also believe people who think running the fronts full range (not double bass, that's different) are fooling themselves. They THINK it sounds better. They think they can localize the subs. But if that's even remotely true they should find something that'll cross at 40hz. Just my opinion that I feel is replace my because it speaks to my design criteria. And that isn't to say I disregard bass always. The current speakers I'm working on sound great full range stereo.
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post #726 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 04:20 PM
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They think they can localize the subs.
If they can localize the subs, then there is some other cue giving away the location, like a chuffing port, or a cabinet resonance, or a driver bottoming out, or something in the room that is rattling. If the room is 100% solid, and the sub is set up correctly, and the sub is working perfectly, then there is no way to localize its output.
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post #727 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 05:12 PM
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I just got lucky...the Elusive 1099 is back in stock and I managed to grab 2 of them for my main left and right speakers...smile.gif
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post #728 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I just got lucky...the Elusive 1099 is back in stock and I managed to grab 2 of them for my main left and right speakers...smile.gif


My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #729 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 05:45 PM
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Are flat packs coming for the 1099? That's what's keeping me out of the water.
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post #730 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Boxozaxu View Post

Well, it gets right back to what tuxedocivic said earlier in the thread about the design goal of the 1099...


The 1099 delivers on size and cost.  Since many of us will be pairing these with subs, it works out beautifully.  I think Bob did an excellent job of reinforcing the point with his review.  With an MSRP of $5299 ($6499 automotive finishes) each and 72″x17″x22.5″ dimensions, I don't think bringing up 215RT is relevant because that speaker is obviously focused on other design goals.

I'm not disagreeing with Bob's review, I just simply pointed out that you wouldn't need 5-7 full range speakers like he mentioned and I already said in my post that they weren't even close to being in the same price range. And I'm also sure anyone could live with the standard finish, so they are $3499ea.



RMK went from dual Orbit Shifters to just three of the 215RT's, if guys aren't familiar with the OS it'll pretty much destroy almost any commercial sub available from 20hz and up. So I think the fact that the owner when from dual OS's to these three 215RT's and is extremely happy with the bass output speakers volumes about these speakers.

And I get it, its a total different market for these over anything in the DIY market. I only even brought it up because Bob said you'd need 5-7 full range speakers. I think anyone would be happy with the 215RT's, of course if any of us had the budget for them smile.gif

Like I said they play flat down to 20hz.

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post #731 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 06:01 PM
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Hard to believe they can sell 3500 dollar speakers that are so ugly. I know many will get put behind a screen but for 100 bucks they could look a hell of a lot nicer. I know jtrs sound great but for 7k a pair... And then they want extra for finish.
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post #732 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 06:08 PM
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I have the standard finish on my speakers, IMO it's a nice finish and there's nothing wrong with it. At least it doesn't have some cheap vinyl finish that 90% of speakers on the market today have.
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post #733 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 06:18 PM
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I like my vinyl on my 300 buck polks better
pyzyja5e.jpg
Buy I like the sound of your jtr a lot better tongue.gif
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post #734 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 07:07 PM
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Are you sure that's vinyl on those Polks? Is that the Rti A1?
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post #735 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 07:11 PM
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Are you sure that's vinyl on those Polks? Is that the Rti A1?
I'd be inclined to say yes to both of those questions.
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post #736 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 07:16 PM
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Yes and yes. As soon as I build new fronts the polks hit the scrap heap. One of them has a blown tweeter.
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post #737 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 07:21 PM
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Pretty sure that's real wood on those Polks. I had a pair and think they did advertise it was real. But really.....who cares about those Polks. biggrin.gif
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post #738 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 07:26 PM
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^ lol. At one time, I was looking at those polks. Now, I'm just waiting for the wife to say I can spend money :P (wanting to pay off the car first really really soon)...and in the meantime, I'm torturing myself on which saw system to buy, and which SEOS designs to go with. Everytime I think I have it down, I change my mind, especially with the newer stuff coming out! (would love to see more SEOS10 designs though. The 1099 is glorious, but more options is also fun (and more torture))
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post #739 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm not disagreeing with Bob's review, I just simply pointed out that you wouldn't need 5-7 full range speakers like he mentioned and I already said in my post that they weren't even close to being in the same price range. And I'm also sure anyone could live with the standard finish, so they are $3499ea.

RMK went from dual Orbit Shifters to just three of the 215RT's, if guys aren't familiar with the OS it'll pretty much destroy almost any commercial sub available from 20hz and up. So I think the fact that the owner when from dual OS's to these three 215RT's and is extremely happy with the bass output speakers volumes about these speakers.

And I get it, its a total different market for these over anything in the DIY market. I only even brought it up because Bob said you'd need 5-7 full range speakers. I think anyone would be happy with the 215RT's, of course if any of us had the budget for them smile.gif

Like I said they play flat down to 20hz.

Sorry, it was unclear to me in your initial post that you were offering the JTR 215RT to disagree with Bob's statement that you need 5-7 full range speakers.

 

That being said, I would hardly agree that 3 can be used instead of 5 based on the sole experience of one other member. I'm sure it's a great sounding speaker but the 215RT still does nothing to address cost and size (215 lbs), the other two issues pointed out beside quantity for a full range speakers. These are issues for members of the DIY community as well as members of the OTS community.

 

$3499 is the manufacture direct cost and $4499 is the MDC for the automotive finish. And maybe that's why it's so blah? So people will spring for the the $4499 automotive finish. :)

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post #740 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jagercola View Post

Are flat packs coming for the 1099? That's what's keeping me out of the water.

I can look into a limited run if there was enough demand. I was thinking about getting the Fusion-10 flat packs done first, but maybe the 1099 might make more sense.
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post #741 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 08:52 PM
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Are flat packs coming for the 1099? That's what's keeping me out of the water.
I could wip you up a pair wink.gif
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post #742 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I can look into a limited run if there was enough demand. I was thinking about getting the Fusion-10 flat packs done first, but maybe the 1099 might make more sense.

The 1099 seems to be getting a lot of love so perhaps that flat pack does make more sense
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Assembled crossovers in this case might have even more appeal than flat packs wink.gif
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Assembled crossovers in this case might have even more appeal than flat packs wink.gif

tru dat
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post #745 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Joe, 6x 15" woofers port tuned to 20hz keeping up with 2x 15"(? Or 18?) woofers horn loaded to 20hz isn't that surprising. I'm sure the orbit shifter is a nice horn, but 3 215HT is a lot of bass capability.

I'm wondering what woofer is in that. And if its an oem woofer, what about it. That's a lot of extension and sensitivity combined. Quite nice.

That response though, ouch, could use some upper bass low mids to balance that out. That's not a knock on the speaker. The owner could have eq'ed it like that. People love to turn up the bass and treble wink.gif
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post #746 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Joe, 6x 15" woofers port tuned to 20hz keeping up with 2x 15"(? Or 18?) woofers horn loaded to 20hz isn't that surprising. I'm sure the orbit shifter is a nice horn, but 3 215HT is a lot of bass capability.

I'm wondering what woofer is in that. And if its an oem woofer, what about it. That's a lot of extension and sensitivity combined. Quite nice.

That response though, ouch, could use some upper bass low mids to balance that out. That's not a knock on the speaker. The owner could have eq'ed it like that. People love to turn up the bass and treble wink.gif

Sorry Ryan, I really wasn't trying to side track your tread.

The OS uses 18" drivers and is a very capable sub, here's the specs on it.

"100db 1w (103db 2.83V) outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter
25-150hz +/-3db outdoors, ground plane
30" tall, 22.5" wide, 45" deep (mouth 30" x 22.5" side)
Output Capablility: (calculated from 4000w, not 7200w peak)

133db average above 25hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter

120db at 20hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter

103db at 10hz, outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter

145db average above 25hz, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter

132db at 20hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter

115db at 10hz, outdoors, eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter"

At RMK's GTG that he hosted where the 215RT's were first heard, guys were blown away by how much bass they could produce. A little less tactical then a pair of OS's, but cleaner with less boom to them.

I honestly think three of these 215RT's would give two of my subs a good run for their money, and that's saying something.

As for as I know they are a total custom driver, with 16mm xmax, frequency +/-3db 18hz-24khz. That's pretty impressive IMO for a tower speaker. That graph was just from RMK's room, I'm sure it could be EQ'd even more.

I know guys looking at the 1099's aren't going to be considering these....lol Hell just think of the system you could build for the price of one of the 215RT's...lol
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post #747 of 2368 Old 04-26-2014, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Boxozaxu View Post

Sorry, it was unclear to me in your initial post that you were offering the JTR 215RT to disagree with Bob's statement that you need 5-7 full range speakers.

That being said, I would hardly agree that 3 can be used instead of 5 based on the sole experience of one other member. I'm sure it's a great sounding speaker but the 215RT still does nothing to address cost and size (215 lbs), the other two issues pointed out beside quantity for a full range speakers. These are issues for members of the DIY community as well as members of the OTS community.

$3499 is the manufacture direct cost and $4499 is the MDC for the automotive finish. And maybe that's why it's so blah? So people will spring for the the $4499 automotive finish. smile.gif

I think that you're just not too familiar with JTR and what this speaker really is or is capable of. I totally agree, these things aren't cheap and aren't for a lot of people. Most of us in the DIY forums would not be looking to drop over 10k on three speakers....lol

But make no mistake about it, these speakers are bad A$$ and would probably produce more then enough bass for most peoples rooms. I have a pair of JTR's for my mains and I really like the standard black finish, the pictures don't do them justice. And a speaker that capable needs to be that big and heavy. If it wasn't the drivers in them could probably cause them to start rocking back and forth.

Of course you're free to do some of your own reading and research if you don't believe me smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/18900
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post #748 of 2368 Old 04-27-2014, 07:27 AM
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Sorry, it was unclear to me in your initial post that you were offering the JTR 215RT to disagree with Bob's statement that you need 5-7 full range speakers.
Sorry, it was unclear to me as well. How is it that you can get away with only 3 full range speakers and no separate sub? What about your surrounds? Where does the sub 80 hz material go? Or are you saying that there is no material below 80 hz that ever reaches the surrounds? I don't know the answer to that question, but from listening to recordings like the Gordon Goodwin Big Phat Band DVDA I simply assumed that surrounds needed to cover the entire frequency range of 20 to 20k just like the mains, as there are substantial low frequency instruments being directed to the surrounds. With your pre/pro, can you direct the sub 80 hz surround material to your front speakers? My Marantz can not do that.

And as Boxozaxu pointed out, the JTR solution is both big and expensive, two *undesirable* qualities. And if you don't use an acoustically transparent screen (I hate those screens), then where and how do you place the center speaker when you have a fairly big screen, like my 144" diagonal? My smaller Unity/TD15M setup already wreaks havoc on center channel placement. And since the placement of LCR is limited (in comparison to subwoofer placement options), what do you do if your 3 full range speakers cause nulls and peaks in the bass?

The 1099 provides small size, high sensitivity, exceptional clarity and transparency, and costs roughly 10% of the lowest priced version of the JTR. For those qualities, it sacrifices low bass, and that low bass can be had by providing a decent subwoofer or two - and the separate subs have the advantage of having more placement options, can be upgraded without upgrading the rest of the speakers (and vice versa), and can provide low frequency reproduction for all speakers, including surrounds, in any given system.

Sorry for the off topic, but I just got back to this thread and wanted to explain my points a little more clearly.
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post #749 of 2368 Old 04-27-2014, 09:57 AM
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Question for Tux...or someone else. The 1099 XO parts use 4 Dayton Audio Grade 5% caps. Is anything noticeable gained/changed by substituting Dayton's Precision 1% caps?..besides me being out more $ of course.
How about if using a different brand, but speced the same, cap or resistor?
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post #750 of 2368 Old 04-27-2014, 10:01 AM
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1% just gets you closer to the target value. But this also assumes that there is <1% diver variation to be taken advantage of.
Some people think fancy$ XO parts make a difference. Other's don't. I think there is a difference between crap and good, but good and "fancy", not really. YMMV.
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