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post #1021 of 1896 Old 07-08-2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
My first reaction was "Ok he is drunk as a skunk and his ear drum has blown open!
That's good reading!


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
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post #1022 of 1896 Old 07-08-2014, 09:38 PM
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Fatshaft your building these babies up to almost impossible expectations
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post #1023 of 1896 Old 07-08-2014, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Fatshaft your building these babies up to almost impossible expectations
No kidding. I'm gonna be embarrassed when they're just a nice sounding value based speaker that people rank in their top 5.
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post #1024 of 1896 Old 07-08-2014, 10:24 PM
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My pre gtg top three as a guess would be 228's , 1099, and funks in no order. Who knows but it will be fun finding out
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post #1025 of 1896 Old 07-08-2014, 11:51 PM
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I think I'm more excited about this GTG then all of you combined!

One of these days one of the GTG's needs to be a live feed!
That'd be cool !


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post #1026 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Actually BAD!

I've been away so much that my listening time has been limited. At first I had them sitting on top of those MBMs but they weren't activated. I think they were acting as a passive radiators sucking up all the upper bass. So I took those away and it got better but not great. I was scratching my head so I measured them. The tweeter level was a little high and I remembered I had to use a 3.3ohm resistor on the tweeter, instead of 3, and meant to strap a 20ohm across it but forgot. So I did that. Better but still not great. Measured great, so what's up. Finally I remembered on my AVR I had a -2db at 150hz PEQ for my other speakers. Ah, finally sounds right. Then had to leave. Listened to like 2 songs. They certainly have midrange. Wow. But I am dying to hear some reference song before I fall back in love.

I'll update you later
Tux, the rest of us have 3.0 ohm resistors that came with the kit in our tweeter circuits. Is there a need for a change to 3.3 or was it that you were just trying to straighten out your specific issue?
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post #1027 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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3ohms is right. I didn't get a kit. I got 2/3 of the kit. No woofers or XO. I bought that separately. I can't remember if it was an accident or all they had available but I bought a 3.3ohm resistor.
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post #1028 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 05:26 AM
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3ohms is right. I didn't get a kit. I got 2/3 of the kit. No woofers or XO. I bought that separately. I can't remember if it was an accident or all they had available but I bought a 3.3ohm resistor.
Gotcha. Thanks!
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post #1029 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 08:12 PM
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What height is the center of the waveguide at?
Bump. Also, is the mid/CD enclosure sealed?
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post #1030 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 08:30 PM
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Bump. Also, is the mid/CD enclosure sealed?
Everything you're asking is in the thread. Start at the beginning; it's well worth the read. Also, see Fatshaft's build.
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post #1031 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 08:41 PM
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I just saw the 1099 up on the website. Is there going to be a front baffle for the 'center' channel when it's lying horizontal?


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post #1032 of 1896 Old 07-09-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I just saw the 1099 up on the website. Is there going to be a front baffle for the 'center' channel when it's lying horizontal?

There is one. You tick the option whether you will be using for center or not.


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post #1033 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 01:43 AM
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There is one. You tick the option whether you will be using for center or not.


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Strange, I can't find it anymore on the website.

Why is it appearing and disappearing?


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post #1034 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 01:51 AM
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because that's why it's called "Elusive"
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post #1035 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 02:03 AM
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because that's why it's called "Elusive"
But why????

Beautiful women, or in this case, beautiful speakers aren't supposed to be 'shy'.. come out, come out.. and show us your pretty face...


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post #1036 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 05:09 AM
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Some of the parts, especially the midrange drivers, are frequently unavailable. Erich sells them when he has them.
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post #1037 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 05:22 AM
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what makes the midrange so scarce? are they a super popular driver used in tons of other things? or do they just not make them that frequently


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post #1038 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 05:43 AM
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Some of the parts, especially the midrange drivers, are frequently unavailable. Erich sells them when he has them.
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what makes the midrange so scarce? are they a super popular driver used in tons of other things? or do they just not make them that frequently
It's not the mids. Erich has said before that he has lots and lots of the closeout mids. The scarcity is with the woofer quantities available and miscellaneous crossover parts.
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post #1039 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 08:04 AM
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I"m a firm believer of "NEVER" using:
Shouda,couda wouda, but for the life of me cannot understand why it can't be left on and say out of stock temporarily.

This way, people can still order and/or can read the reviews as to help them make a decision while they're doing some DD.

Sorry, I'll never do that again.
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post #1040 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey all, just a listening update (as requested by FS)

Last night I finally got to watch a half hour of Rio with my kids, half of Wolverine, and listen to a couple songs. I got home late and it was a long long day. So I couldn't even finish the movie.

The first thing that struck me that I had forgotten is how loud I can turn them up without fatigue. You all know I have built many capable speakers, but these can really keep going up and up. I normally listen at -20 with my wife, -15 by myself, and -10 to show off. Keep in mind I've changed things so many times my MV isn't calibrated to reference. I'd say -10 is getting close to reference. About a month ago I was showing off at -6 and my ears were ringing after about 1/2hour. That was with different speakers. These I had up to -10 last night and they seemed loud but quite at the same time. A weird thing. Most of us have experienced this going from a ghettoblaster to a pair of Polk bookshelves. Then again from those to proper floor standing speakers. Then maybe again upgrading to a big DIY speaker. I feel like I'm experiencing it again.

The second thing I noticed is bad recordings are extra bad. Again, we've all experienced this. But it's on another level. And this isn't always a good thing. I can hear when the recording microphone starts to distort. I'm not sure how I feel about this

The third thing is the midrange clarity. Very clear, very detailed. I have been trying to achieve that with my most recent build using 2 Celestion 12" woofers. It's getting close, but hearing these reminded me how much more work I need to do on those. These things let you hear every little click and pop no matter how far buried in the recording. I really enjoy this. It adds a lot of realism.

To summarize my listening, they were clean, clear, revealing to a fault, exceptionally dynamic with seemingly limitless headroom, smooth, and a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to listening some more. Hopefully tonight. I still have to add some screws to the woofers. Take some measurements. And find a way to box these up for transport to the Vancouver GTG. Then I gotta get them to Tyee who has a van and will take them over.

I took an impedance sweep (I'll post it on the OP soon) as my original never got saved. It tells me my tuning is about 55hz iirc. That was last night, I was very tired. I just saved it and went to sleep. That's with Erich's ports with the dividers where the have to go and with the total outside depth being 12.5". I used one large pillow ripped into 4 pieces as filling. So each chamber got 1/4 pillow. I think this is quite reasonable for an 80hz XO, and if the room dictated it someone could cross at 70 or even 60 if it worked luckily. The tuning would be in the audible stop band, but I don't think it would affect things much, if at all. I was happy to see this because I haven't used Erich's ports. He just gave me the dimension. And that was a long time ago. It's supposed to work, but you always wonder if you didn't make a mistake The rest of the impedance matched what I was getting before with a brief minimum of about 5.5ohms around 200hz (again, iirc) and the rest hovering above 6ohms. Easily driven by any receiver. Even a cheapie should drive these speakers no problem considering their effeciency. Of course, that wouldn't be optimum, but better than buying a $1k receiver and $100 best buy speakers. That just doesn't make sense.
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post #1041 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 08:54 AM
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Thanks for the updated impressions, Tux!
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post #1042 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Hey all, just a listening update (as requested by FS)

Last night I finally got to watch a half hour of Rio with my kids, half of Wolverine, and listen to a couple songs. I got home late and it was a long long day. So I couldn't even finish the movie.

The first thing that struck me that I had forgotten is how loud I can turn them up without fatigue. You all know I have built many capable speakers, but these can really keep going up and up. I normally listen at -20 with my wife, -15 by myself, and -10 to show off. Keep in mind I've changed things so many times my MV isn't calibrated to reference. I'd say -10 is getting close to reference. About a month ago I was showing off at -6 and my ears were ringing after about 1/2hour. That was with different speakers. These I had up to -10 last night and they seemed loud but quite at the same time. A weird thing. Most of us have experienced this going from a ghettoblaster to a pair of Polk bookshelves. Then again from those to proper floor standing speakers. Then maybe again upgrading to a big DIY speaker. I feel like I'm experiencing it again.

The second thing I noticed is bad recordings are extra bad. Again, we've all experienced this. But it's on another level. And this isn't always a good thing. I can hear when the recording microphone starts to distort. I'm not sure how I feel about this

The third thing is the midrange clarity. Very clear, very detailed. I have been trying to achieve that with my most recent build using 2 Celestion 12" woofers. It's getting close, but hearing these reminded me how much more work I need to do on those. These things let you hear every little click and pop no matter how far buried in the recording. I really enjoy this. It adds a lot of realism.

To summarize my listening, they were clean, clear, revealing to a fault, exceptionally dynamic with seemingly limitless headroom, smooth, and a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to listening some more. Hopefully tonight. I still have to add some screws to the woofers. Take some measurements. And find a way to box these up for transport to the Vancouver GTG. Then I gotta get them to Tyee who has a van and will take them over.

I took an impedance sweep (I'll post it on the OP soon) as my original never got saved. It tells me my tuning is about 55hz iirc. That was last night, I was very tired. I just saved it and went to sleep. That's with Erich's ports with the dividers where the have to go and with the total outside depth being 12.5". I used one large pillow ripped into 4 pieces as filling. So each chamber got 1/4 pillow. I think this is quite reasonable for an 80hz XO, and if the room dictated it someone could cross at 70 or even 60 if it worked luckily. The tuning would be in the audible stop band, but I don't think it would affect things much, if at all. I was happy to see this because I haven't used Erich's ports. He just gave me the dimension. And that was a long time ago. It's supposed to work, but you always wonder if you didn't make a mistake The rest of the impedance matched what I was getting before with a brief minimum of about 5.5ohms around 200hz (again, iirc) and the rest hovering above 6ohms. Easily driven by any receiver. Even a cheapie should drive these speakers no problem considering their effeciency. Of course, that wouldn't be optimum, but better than buying a $1k receiver and $100 best buy speakers. That just doesn't make sense.
Good job on building your flagship speakers tux... i have enjoyed following this thread and thrilled that they ended up so great.

I wonder how they stack up against the Noesis 212s...

Would you be thinking of building a flagship full range flagship with 10 or 12 inch woofers that goes 20-20khz? Maybe at around 95dB efficiency?


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post #1043 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
I"m a firm believer of "NEVER" using:
Shouda,couda wouda, but for the life of me cannot understand why it can't be left on and say out of stock temporarily.

This way, people can still order and/or can read the reviews as to help them make a decision while they're doing some DD.

Sorry, I'll never do that again.
I second this. For the longest time, i was checking every single link on the website thinking where the heck this speaker was listed. Then one day it popped up... and then vanishes...

I totally like the idea of an 'Currently Unavailable' notice instead of taking it out...


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post #1044 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Good job on building your flagship speakers tux... i have enjoyed following this thread and thrilled that they ended up so great.

I wonder how they stack up against the Noesis 212s...

Would you be thinking of building a flagship full range flagship with 10 or 12 inch woofers that goes 20-20khz? Maybe at around 95dB efficiency?
I'm not sure how the Noesis speakers would compare. The actually use similar ideologies so that's an interesting question. Similarities include vertical woofer arrangement, low XO to the woofers, dedicated midrange. The major difference is the dedicated mids are horn CD in the 212 and side by side direct radiators in the 1099. The 212 will have a lot more bass capability. I know first hand what 2 x 12" woofers are capable of. The difference between 2x12s to the 1099 is quite real. Not something I'd pretend doesn't matter.

No plans for a flagship type thing. Someone could build the 1099s, put a pro 18" woofer above and below it, sealed the 10" chambers, use a dsp to cross at 200hz and then they'd have 30 to 20khz at stupid levels. But I'm not sure that would be wise in a home environment. A proper subwoofer system would be much better.
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post #1045 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I'm not sure how the Noesis speakers would compare. The actually use similar ideologies so that's an interesting question. Similarities include vertical woofer arrangement, low XO to the woofers, dedicated midrange. The major difference is the dedicated mids are horn CD in the 212 and side by side direct radiators in the 1099. The 212 will have a lot more bass capability. I know first hand what 2 x 12" woofers are capable of. The difference between 2x12s to the 1099 is quite real. Not something I'd pretend doesn't matter.

No plans for a flagship type thing. Someone could build the 1099s, put a pro 18" woofer above and below it, sealed the 10" chambers, use a dsp to cross at 200hz and then they'd have 30 to 20khz at stupid levels. But I'm not sure that would be wise in a home environment. A proper subwoofer system would be much better.
HAHA... that made me think of the Millennium Falcon on it's side... or, maybe a Tie Fighter... ()===()

I have heard a lot of reviews about the new Noesis 215s that is full range, and that there truly is something different between a full range speaker vs Speaker+subs... I can believe that because recently i attended an AV show and was impressed with a few full range speakers on display. Somehow they seem to have that extra 'sparkle' or something or other that made music sound better... not sure what it is... perhaps as a speaker builder you would know what that is...


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post #1046 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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perhaps as a speaker builder you would know what that is...
Well, IMO, it's the fact that most people don't get their subs integrated properly. Then they hear full range speakers and think it's an improvement. Probably not the answer people like, but it's what I believe. Even my own subwoofer system is a lot of maintanance. I'll have it setup nice, then I'll change some things and have to do it all over again. It's a lot of work.
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post #1047 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
I"m a firm believer of "NEVER" using:
Shouda,couda wouda, but for the life of me cannot understand why it can't be left on and say out of stock temporarily.

This way, people can still order and/or can read the reviews as to help them make a decision while they're doing some DD.

Sorry, I'll never do that again.
They were left up for longer this time but no one really puts up reviews. It's quite rare. It does kind of stink taking car loads of packages up to FedEx and getting one review in about 100 packages.

Leaving them up all the time, even when out of stock, gets me lots of emails asking when they will be back in stock. Then lots of return emails from me telling them that I'm waiting on a certain crossover part and that a $7 capacitor or inductor is keeping the whole kit down. Then they reply telling me to order from different companies. Then I reply that I have and it normally takes 3 weeks to get them from the other companies as well. Then they reply wondering if they can order and just have me start subtracting off things that they can buy later. Then me replying "sorry, I can't do that" with a long winded reason why it doesn't work well. Then they reply with some aggravated email. Then I reply that I'm just trying to do my best and help out.


It's easier to just remove the kit. Plus it makes them more available to AVS members.
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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
2 ACI 15" subwoofers.


Last edited by Erich H; 07-10-2014 at 10:22 AM.
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post #1048 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I took an impedance sweep (I'll post it on the OP soon) as my original never got saved. It tells me my tuning is about 55hz iirc. That was last night, I was very tired. I just saved it and went to sleep. That's with Erich's ports with the dividers where the have to go and with the total outside depth being 12.5".
You told Fatshaft to build the cabinets at 14.5" deep which is what the flat packs were cut out. The extra 2" will tune them lower. I think each woofer is in a .95cuft chamber. Mids are in a chamber of .84, but after the waveguide and crossover, it's likely closer to .75cuft.


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Twelve 10" NHT subwoofer build.
Cloning of a NHT VR-3.
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post #1049 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
You told Fatshaft to build the cabinets at 14.5" deep which is what the flat packs were cut out. The extra 2" will tune them lower. I think each woofer is in a .95cuft chamber. Mids are in a chamber of .84, but after the waveguide and crossover, it's likely closer to .75cuft.
Ya that's fine. As I told Bob Sorel, going small reduces the output and raises the tuning a tiny bit. I built them small also. Going that big (14.5" deep) does reduce tuning a little bit, but also increases output around the tuning. Fairly small amounts too. My original enclosure was tuned around 45hz and was quite small. That left me with low tuning and low output. You're fine. I just wanted to confirm we didn't make a major screw up with the ports and accidently tune to 100hz or 30hz. That would mean egg on my face telling everyone to change their ports. Which would have been tough to do considering the shape

Oh, and I used only a single baffle (your CNC baffle). Is 14.5" with a double baffle? That would make them even closer.
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post #1050 of 1896 Old 07-10-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
They were left up for longer this time but no one really puts up reviews. It's quite rare. It does kind of stink taking car loads of packages up to FedEx and getting one review in about 100 packages.

Leaving them up all the time, even when out of stock, gets me lots of emails asking when they will be back in stock. Then lots of return emails from me telling them that I'm waiting on a certain crossover part and that a $7 capacitor or inductor is keeping the whole kit down. Then they reply telling me to order from different companies. Then I reply that I have and it normally takes 3 weeks to get them from the other companies as well. Then they reply wondering if they can order and just have me start subtracting off things that they can buy later. Then me replying "sorry, I can't do that" with a long winded reason why it doesn't work well. Then they reply with some aggravated email. Then I reply that I'm just trying to do my best and help out.


It's easier to just remove the kit. Plus it makes them more available to AVS members.
You need a standard PM reply that refers to the DIYSoundGroup FAQ page.

BAM Done!
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