Need help desining subwoofer enclosure for 2 x 15" subs. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 135 Old 07-17-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I downloaded these one at a time and figured I would pay it forward by making it easier for the next guys.

Here you go:

Enjoy biggrin.gif

https://www.dropbox.com/s/clse156x5y76aub/Extra%20Drivers%20for%20WinISD.rar

Just unzip and add them to your folder.

C:\Program Files (x86)\Linearteam\WinISD Pro\Drivers

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post #92 of 135 Old 07-17-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I was actually thinking of one driver per box at this size. You think I could do both ? I was going to make a second box if I liked it.

Should I go a little bigger if I use two drivers ?

I was thinking I could also build a lilmike cab and use the other Sub in that for now, and just swap out the sub in the future for a better model for it, and make a nice easy sealed box for the Soundstream- or perhaps another ported like the first.

I'd like to include some subs in the back of my theater- and also possibly one up off the floor closer to the ceiling in the back. For these I might need smaller, and nicer finish / looking subs. I can take a big monster pig behind my 36" Baffle screen wall. F20 or a big ported box is fine with me- I won't see it. Bigger is better. This project started out as a hobby / learning excercise. I never knew a thing about WinISD when I started this thread- I just wanted to make a box for some subs I already had. In the process I found a new hobby- and it's clear Tim is right and this won't be the last sub build. But after modeling it the Soundstream subs I have seem worthy of possibly using in my theater. I just need something that might get me more down under 20hz to go along with them. But two of these should make plenty of noise 20-100hz - and adding more will only increase this.

I'm concerned with placement, and sound quality so I'd rather have 4 subs in 4 corners, with one or two up higher to provide the better sound quality bass- Than just one or two monsters stacked in the corner set up for maximum SPL. If I lose 6db EQ and placing for proper even response / sound- I'll likely make it back up with multiple drivers.

I don't need to go more than 120db I don't think.

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post #93 of 135 Old 07-17-2013, 07:38 PM
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yeah, back in post #11, i suggested a 6 cubic footer
or so as a reasonable size for a single driver.
that could be tuned to 20hz or so by playing around
with the port (which you have a hang of now).

remember, these models are 2pi space. i.e., the response
the system will generate sitting in the middle of an
open field. when you put it in your room, you will get
some boost in the lower frequencies, so having a little
rolloff from 30hz down to 20hz in the model will be
fine and in room it will be pretty flat. that is why
i chose that size and tuning, but a little larger and tuned
a little lower is fine.

if you want to build a 13 footer or whatever it was
for the single driver, that is fine, it just seems
unneccesary in this situation.

i actually plugged in 2 drivers in your big cab and thought
that it looked good, but that's just one guy's opinion.

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post #94 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The issue I had was when I plugged in 2 drivers it didn't seem any different or better so I assumed having the second driver in a second box in a second location would give me more output and better sound.

The lower frequencies actually rolled off more with two drivers according to the model

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post #95 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I got the wood cut last night. I need to go HD and get one more sheet of MDF. I ran out.

Sawdust from MDF is brutal. I hate this crap.

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post #96 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 07:44 AM
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"The issue I had was when I plugged in 2 drivers
it didn't seem any different or better..."

one driver, 6.5 cubes, 20hz, grey
one driver, 13 cubes, 20hz, red
two drivers, 13 cubes, 20hz, green

going from grey to red provides a little more
spl at 20hz, but since you are also likely to
get some room gain down there anyways, i'm not
sure that is much of an advantage.

going from grey to green provides 3db more
sensitivity, so for the same power input, the
dual sub setup will be louder.

on the "max spl" chart, going from grey to red,
provides little to nothing, but going to the
green (dual driver) setup yields 6db more max spl.

so with a larger cabinet and a single driver,
there is a marginal advantage right around tuning,
but that is all.

going to a dual driver system yields 3db more spl
sensitivity and 6db more max spl.




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post #97 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 07:47 AM
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the "droop" on the max spl chart is where
the driver runs out of excursion, so going
to a larger cabinet doesn't provide any
more max spl (grey to red) from 25-55hz.
both setups are excursion limited.

in the green (dual driver) setup. twice
the drivers have twice the excursion, so
6db more max spl.

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post #98 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 07:54 AM
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additionally here is the max spl for three
cabinets with different tunings: 17 (blue),
20 (red), and 23hz (green).

all cabs are the same size.

so while the blue cab can definitely produce
the most extension, it is also the most limited
in how loud it can play in the 25-35hz region.

this is a tradeoff of lower tuned subs. they
aren't as good higher up in the frequency band
and each person has to pick what they want.

originally, i was thinking that you would get the
most enjoyment out of the green line. that is
why i suggested the tuning that i did.


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post #99 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 08:15 AM
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This thread is awesome. I've been searching google for something like this for days now. I'm new at this DIY stuff, and I am trying to learn how to fully understand those graphs.

A coworker has a friend with a really nice computerized wood cutting machine. All I need to provide to home are the dimensions, and it can pretty much cut anything with awesome precision. I want to build two dual 15" or 18" subs.

I will install that program on my PC and play around with it. Keep up the good work!!

Media Server: UnRaid Server: 15TB of storage and growing :).

http://www.avsforum.com/lists/display/view/id/8599

 

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http://www.avsforum.com/lists/display/view/id/8597

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post #100 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

This thread is awesome. I've been searching google for something like this for days now. I'm new at this DIY stuff, and I am trying to learn how to fully understand those graphs.

A coworker has a friend with a really nice computerized wood cutting machine. All I need to provide to home are the dimensions, and it can pretty much cut anything with awesome precision. I want to build two dual 15" or 18" subs.

I will install that program on my PC and play around with it. Keep up the good work!!

Sweet !! Welcome to DIY biggrin.gif

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post #101 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

additionally here is the max spl for three
cabinets with different tunings: 17 (blue),
20 (red), and 23hz (green).

all cabs are the same size.

so while the blue cab can definitely produce
the most extension, it is also the most limited
in how loud it can play in the 25-35hz region.

this is a tradeoff of lower tuned subs. they
aren't as good higher up in the frequency band
and each person has to pick what they want.

originally, i was thinking that you would get the
most enjoyment out of the green line. that is
why i suggested the tuning that i did.


I am thinking between 20-23hz is where I will go. I might just place it at like 22hz cause I can't decide biggrin.gif

Any reason not to do one at 26 hertz and another at 20hz ? (I have two subs)

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post #102 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 08:37 PM
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one reason would be if they are tuned
the same and you are sending a mono signal
to them, you would only need on high pass
filter.

with two different tunings, different high
pass filters may be required and that is just
extra hassle.

anywhere in the 20-23hz region is going to
be fine. also, those maximum excursion
charts are based on the xmax specification.

drivers can shoot past xmax. how far is unique
to each driver. as i mentioned before, yours
have a pretty long way after xmax before getting
into trouble, so look at those "limits" kind
of like the speed limit...you can get away with
going a little over.

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post #103 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 08:40 PM
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sorry, that should read:

one reason would be if they are tuned
the same and you are sending a mono signal
to them, you would only need *one* high pass
filter.

half the time i can't edit a post anymore.
my cpu goes to 100% and the site stalls out.

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post #104 of 135 Old 07-18-2013, 09:01 PM
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Wow, dont know how I missed this thread. Great job picking all of this info up Mfusick! The 6-8 ft3 box sizes are definitely a better fit for this driver then 13 ft3. If you go that big you might as well just get a 250 watt plate amp for each sub, cause that is how much you will have cut the power handling. The only real benefit for you would be having the ability to reuse the boxes in the future with a much more powerful woofer/amp combo, but if that is the case you should use PVC ports to make future adjustments easier.
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post #105 of 135 Old 07-19-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

sorry, that should read:

one reason would be if they are tuned
the same and you are sending a mono signal
to them, you would only need *one* high pass
filter.

half the time i can't edit a post anymore.
my cpu goes to 100% and the site stalls out.

I got what you meant smile.gif

Basically the 20hz filter won't work on the one ported at 26hz too. I'd need a higher filter on the higher port or vice versa.

I have a spare crown 402. It's the old school version. It's in the basement and I used to use it to drive PA speakers and play guitar through when I still played often. For last five years it just sits around. I was going to use that to play around for now. So a single RCA 20hz filter coming out of the LFE jack like posted above might be a simple solution. I could run it stereo or bridged. The SPL170 seems too make noise without needing tons of wattage. I just didn't know if porting one different would drive the amp funny or something. Also- What happens if I do one ported on Right channel, and one sealed on the left channel ?

I don't even have a place for these subs I'm making. They will probably be garage duty until I can do something else ( like theater is built)

This project was because I had the drivers collecting dust and wanted to learn a little about DIY.

I think I'm hooked. biggrin.gif I'm nearly sure ill do a 7.2 build smile.gif. (Then 11.2). Then a "real" subwoofer.

I have a decent pair of subs now by consumer standards. A Polk psw650 and a psw1200. Old now, but still work well in my little room.

I'm expecting the Soundstream SPL170's I build to spank it for $60 in materials and time. I hope I'm not disappointed.

Thanks again for your continued help and advice.

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post #106 of 135 Old 07-19-2013, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Wow, dont know how I missed this thread. Great job picking all of this info up Mfusick!


Hi Jay,

Thanks!

I tend to be a quick learner at this stuff but I was a true noob when I started this thread and had no clue about modeling or port tuning. I should be thanking all of you for taking the time to explain and teach me. biggrin.gif



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

The 6-8 ft3 box sizes are definitely a better fit for this driver then 13 ft3. If you go that big you might as well just get a 250 watt plate amp for each sub, cause that is how much you will have cut the power handling. The only real benefit for you would be having the ability to reuse the boxes in the future with a much more powerful woofer/amp combo, but if that is the case you should use PVC ports to make future adjustments easier.



Why would PVC ports be easier ? I think they would need to curve and I would need a bunch of them yes ?? A long slot seems easier.

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post #107 of 135 Old 07-19-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Hi Jay,

Thanks!

Why would PVC ports be easier ? I think they would need to curve and I would need a bunch of them yes ?? A long slot seems easier.

I'm not sure what slot dimensions you were planning, but you could overbuild them (cross area in the 300+ cm2 range) now so they wont be inadequate in case you do plan a future upgrade. My thinking is you could start with something like a pair of 4" x 10" round ports which will tune you to 20 hz without much issue. If you plan for it you could simply cut two (or four) more openings and add two (or four) additional 4" ports, and yes with elbow fittings you could increase the length of those ports to what ever tune you desire. The 460HO and UXL18 would work great in this size box tuned to 16hz. If you go with a slot I'm not sure it would be possible to lower the tune. Four 4" x 37" ports will tune you to 16hz. Elbow fittings are very easy to use, you would just glue up the length you need with the elbow added, pull out the woofer and pop the addition on to the current port. You just have to take how you're going to do it into consideration during the build.




Of course you could just stick with a more reasonable enclosure for the current woofer. Decisions decisions biggrin.gif
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post #108 of 135 Old 07-19-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I like the idea of building an even better box for my next subwoofer with the experience gained on this intro project biggrin.gif

I'll just use the soundstream in the garage wink.gif

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post #109 of 135 Old 07-29-2013, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry no pics this weekend I didn't get a chance to finish it. Spent most of my time on the yard. frown.gif

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post #110 of 135 Old 07-30-2013, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Question...

Do you guys do anything special when you connect the edges like rabbet them ?

Or do you just screw and glue ?

Advice for me? Wood is cut- I just need to assemble it now.

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post #111 of 135 Old 07-30-2013, 07:18 PM
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Clamp and glue, or screw and glue. As long as there is pressure keeping the panels together with glue applied, it will work. The glue bond line is stronger then the wood, glue some scraps together and see what happens when you try to separate them.

Make sure you're adjusting for squareness when gluing, it is very easy to have things tweak out of 90 during the glue up.
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post #112 of 135 Old 07-31-2013, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Glue only and no screws?

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post #113 of 135 Old 07-31-2013, 06:31 AM
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I always like to give a real shallow rabbet joint so that all the pieces "lock" together with things clamped up. (if this is done correctly, nothing can "shift" about when clamped)

Screws are just inexpensive permanent clamps, the glue is all that is required to hold the box together. If you don't want to invest in a bunch of clamps to set the glue then use screws and think of them as sacrificial clamps.
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post #114 of 135 Old 07-31-2013, 06:46 AM
 
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I like to glue the wood and then use brad nails to hold it in place, then clamps.
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post #115 of 135 Old 07-31-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I have brad nailers. I have screws and impact driver, and drill with countersink bits- I have tubes of liquid nails construction adhesive but I could always buy some other glue. I have a router, and table.

Sky is the limit- just wondering what's the best way to do it.

I bought 10 clamps for $1.99 each at harbor freight and I already owned a bunch so I am good on clamps too.

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post #116 of 135 Old 02-08-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Update: after a very long wait I'm finishing the exterior today biggrin.gif . I'll try to post up some pics later smile.gif

Great!

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post #117 of 135 Old 03-29-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

so, what is your final plan?


I think I am going to make it 24" deep by 24" wide by 42" tall. That is about 14 cubic feet before the port and speaker.

The port will be 21.75" x 4" (24" wide minus 3/4" each side+ 3/4" brace down center) and run the full width and depth almost. It will be about 38" long - (24" deep minus 4" = 20" + go down about another 18" to get me to about 38" or whatever exact I need for a 20hz tune)

I figured the port would take up 38"x22.5"x4" [3.16666' x 1.875' x .3333' ] or 1.979 cubic feet. <--- DID I DO THIS RIGHT ???

Minus the woofer puts me around 11 cubic feet I'm guessing after bracing- I'll look closer at it when I get to the port length to get it exact. 38" puts me about 21hz I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The issue I had was when I plugged in 2 drivers
it didn't seem any different or better..."

one driver, 6.5 cubes, 20hz, grey
one driver, 13 cubes, 20hz, red
two drivers, 13 cubes, 20hz, green

going from grey to red provides a little more
spl at 20hz, but since you are also likely to
get some room gain down there anyways, i'm not
sure that is much of an advantage.

going from grey to green provides 3db more
sensitivity, so for the same power input, the
dual sub setup will be louder.

on the "max spl" chart, going from grey to red,
provides little to nothing, but going to the
green (dual driver) setup yields 6db more max spl.

so with a larger cabinet and a single driver,
there is a marginal advantage right around tuning,
but that is all.

going to a dual driver system yields 3db more spl
sensitivity and 6db more max spl.




Hey quick question on this,

I never asked before. When you say going with dual drivers adds 3db more senstivity and 6db more SPL - how do you have them wired?

I wired them with each dedicated negative and positive jack - so I could run them in series, or parallel, or bridged mono, or normal stereo. I am only using a cheap oldschool crown XLS402 amp I already had for now. What's the best way to run it ?

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post #118 of 135 Old 03-30-2014, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
going to a dual driver system yields 3db more spl
sensitivity and 6db more max spl.

How did you have this wired up ?

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post #119 of 135 Old 03-30-2014, 07:49 PM
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nothing wrong with an xls402 amp.

as for wiring, it depends on the amp and the drivers. refresh my memory on which drivers you intend to use and then we can see how to best wire them to your amp.

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post #120 of 135 Old 04-02-2014, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

nothing wrong with an xls402 amp.

as for wiring, it depends on the amp and the drivers. refresh my memory on which drivers you intend to use and then we can see how to best wire them to your amp.

Thanks in advance for taking a look.

I posted the specs , owners manual and driver models in the first post of this thread.

It's two Soundstream spl170 15" subs I rescued from my dads garage after a decade of collecting dust.

The drivers were free which is the only reason they were chosen. This thread taught me some basics about box design that I'll forever be grateful for.

I'm just wondering how you'd run them (wire them) I'm familiar with 2 ohm stereo vs 4ohm vs 8 ohm, and bridged vs parralel vs. normal. I have a two channel amp that I also already owned (crown 402) that's also a decade old.

Since these subs are dual voice coil each I series wired the dual voice coils for a stereo 8ohm load. One on the left channel. One on the right. I did it this way because it seemed the safest way to test them out and the easy load on my amp.

But then I just left the project and I am now resuming it with finishing the box and determining the final way to run them.

Currently these are just in the garage as garage subs. They won't ever be dedicated HT use. These are extra I had laying around that gave me an excuse to DIY biggrin.gif

I never tested them thoroughly yet but they seem overkill for a garage tongue.gif

I only used the crown 402 because I had it. I'm wondering what is a good final amp solution ? Also back to the original question: how to wire them ? 2ohm stereo ?

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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