Fusion-8 Alchemy... I'm blown away! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 07-06-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I finished assembling a pair of Fusion-8's I got from Erich. All I can say is that I'm blown away! I ordered these to replace my ADP bi-pole rears, but wanted to test them as mains before I mount them.

I honestly think these are better than my B&W 603's! They are definitely louder and clearer at extreme levels. The B&W's have more bass, but I'm running two of Erich's 18" Dayton sealed subs, so it is a non-issue. I'm hearing things with these speakers that I haven't heard before. I almost don't want to use them for rears.

My eventual goal is to replace the B&W's with Fusion-15 Sentinel's. I can't imagine how they will perform compared to the fusion-8's. For those who have heard these two speakers, can you give me an idea of the difference?
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post #2 of 61 Old 07-06-2013, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

Today I finished assembling a pair of Fusion-8's I got from Erich. All I can say is that I'm blown away! I ordered these to replace my ADP bi-pole rears, but wanted to test them as mains before I mount them.

I honestly think these are better than my B&W 603's! They are definitely louder and clearer at extreme levels. The B&W's have more bass, but I'm running two of Erich's 18" Dayton sealed subs, so it is a non-issue. I'm hearing things with these speakers that I haven't heard before. I almost don't want to use them for rears.

My eventual goal is to replace the B&W's with Fusion-15 Sentinel's. I can't imagine how they will perform compared to the fusion-8's. For those who have heard these two speakers, can you give me an idea of the difference?

I hope to be building some sentinels real soon too.
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post #3 of 61 Old 07-06-2013, 10:20 PM
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Glad you liked them. I just helped bring things together, Jeff Bagby was the guy behind the crossover work.

If you get a chance, you should put a review on the site so more people would know how good these speakers were. It would help future DIY guys pick some great speakers.
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post #4 of 61 Old 07-06-2013, 11:10 PM
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B&W speaker markups are huge. The fusion 8 alchemy measures better and is a far more sensitive speaker (loses in the bass department of course). Not only are you hearing less distortion but youre hearing a speaker that is giving you a better power response.

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post #5 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 06:34 AM
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I have never been a fan of the older B&W 600 series speakers, ie the ones that you currently have for your mains. In my opinion they just sound bad, as if someone put a heavy blanket over them. So with that being said, to me, I would expect the Fusion-8-Alchemy to be a better performer that the B&W's for movies.
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post #6 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I don't know what good sounds like then. I have always liked my B&W's.

I've seen other people say these Fusions sound good for movies. What does that mean? They don't sound good when playing music? I only tested them as mains with music.

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post #7 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 07:44 AM
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Have you tried them as rears yet? I wonder how you will like them as the ADPs were bi's.


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Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

Today I finished assembling a pair of Fusion-8's I got from Erich. All I can say is that I'm blown away! I ordered these to replace my ADP bi-pole rears, but wanted to test them as mains before I mount them.

I honestly think these are better than my B&W 603's! They are definitely louder and clearer at extreme levels. The B&W's have more bass, but I'm running two of Erich's 18" Dayton sealed subs, so it is a non-issue. I'm hearing things with these speakers that I haven't heard before. I almost don't want to use them for rears.

My eventual goal is to replace the B&W's with Fusion-15 Sentinel's. I can't imagine how they will perform compared to the fusion-8's. For those who have heard these two speakers, can you give me an idea of the difference?
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post #8 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 07:56 AM
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post #9 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

Have you tried them as rears yet? I wonder how you will like them as the ADPs were bi's.

Last night I quickly ran Audyssey and we watched Parental Guidance on Blue Ray. Not a whole lot of rear action in that movie, but they still sounded great. I was never a fan of the ADP-170's. They were expensive and never really did much. This movie was enough to show me that the fusion's are for superior.

Here are some quick cell phone pictures. I painted them with an oil based semi-gloss. I will probably do a light sanding and apply another coat. I was in a hurry to get them on the wall and this paint takes 24 hours before you can re-coat it. Then it takes a few days to really harden. They got some dust flakes on them because I painted them outside. I will sand that out and do a real nice final coat.









Here is a picture of my crossover layout:

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post #10 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 10:01 AM
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They look great, really nice job. I have an all Klilpsch Heritage setup except I have Axiom QS4's for the sides. I wish they (diysound) made a bi-pole with high sensitivity. smile.gif
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post #11 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

Last night I quickly ran Audyssey and we watched Parental Guidance on Blue Ray. Not a whole lot of rear action in that movie, but they still sounded great. I was never a fan of the ADP-170's. They were expensive and never really did much. This movie was enough to show me that the fusion's are for superior.

Cool speakers. You might find that they work better without Audyssey. Audyssey makes an assumption about the loudspeakers that fits your B&W's but does not hold here (directivity shift in the midrange).

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post #12 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 11:33 AM
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Damit. I'm trying not to want anything else.
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post #13 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 12:18 PM
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I painted some of those EOS-8 waveguides with a matte finish, I just haven't put them up on the site yet. The gloss goes fine with your oil based paint, but if someone wanted a complete matte finish, that option will be up soon.
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post #14 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Cool speakers. You might find that they work better without Audyssey. Audyssey makes an assumption about the loudspeakers that fits your B&W's but does not hold here (directivity shift in the midrange).

I need to learn how to EQ without Audyssey. I hate how Audyssey turns the subs down about -5. Every time I want to watch something I have to adjust the subs to my liking.
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post #15 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 06:44 PM
 
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I would expect the SEOS designs to outperform nearly any speaker that is below 10x the price of the SEOS's. Usually speaker manufacturers end up using around 10-20% of the msrp towards drivers. Cabinets, shipping, and manufacturer markup and dealer markup are huge. Erich gives an amazing deal on them.
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post #16 of 61 Old 07-07-2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sslv2pwned View Post

I need to learn how to EQ without Audyssey. I hate how Audyssey turns the subs down about -5. Every time I want to watch something I have to adjust the subs to my liking.

What version are you using...
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What version are you using...

I have a Denon AVR-4311CI with Audyssey MultEQ XT32
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post #18 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 04:46 AM
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Hmmm, I usually only adjusted my LFE for concert DVDs. I'm sure you did all the setup right as described in the Audyssey section..... I don't want to side track this thread. Those twoways look great. That's a minimal XO too. My receiver of choice for my new room will be the 4311, unless another more capable one comes out in the next year, but those Denon's are rock solid.
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post #19 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

I would expect the SEOS designs to outperform nearly any speaker that is below 10x the price of the SEOS's. Usually speaker manufacturers end up using around 10-20% of the msrp towards drivers. Cabinets, shipping, and manufacturer markup and dealer markup are huge. Erich gives an amazing deal on them.

That's true^

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post #20 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

I would expect the SEOS designs to outperform nearly any speaker that is below 10x the price of the SEOS's. Usually speaker manufacturers end up using around 10-20% of the msrp towards drivers. Cabinets, shipping, and manufacturer markup and dealer markup are huge. Erich gives an amazing deal on them.

I'm sorry but this is not a fair impression to give people. I highly doubt these kits sound better then speakers costing x10 the price. I've built some nice - well regarded diy kits and for the money you can usually compare them to speakers costing 2-3 times the price - NOT 10!

I'd love to try some of the SEOs kits but I'm having an extremely hard time believing these things sound any better then some of the old Klipsch speakers. The Forte II's for example. NO way the SEOs blow these speakers out of the water, maybe there are slight differences but nothing big.
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Quote:
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I'm sorry but this is not a fair impression to give people. I highly doubt these kits sound better then speakers costing x10 the price. I've built some nice - well regarded diy kits and for the money you can usually compare them to speakers costing 2-3 times the price - NOT 10!

I'd love to try some of the SEOs kits but I'm having an extremely hard time believing these things sound any better then some of the old Klipsch speakers. The Forte II's for example. NO way the SEOs blow these speakers out of the water, maybe there are slight differences but nothing big.

well sound is subjective so it's different for everyone, and there's diminishing returns at every point. I'm sure some people can't tell the difference between a SEOS and a $100.00 boxstore speaker. I guess a better way to put it would be that the drivers are the same cost as in speakers 5-10X the price. And like I said, "nearly any" speaker. There definitely would be speakers that are more expensive that sound better. Like many people on here know, but most of the public don't, higher price does not mean better speakers.

There definitely are some good value speakers that are not DIY, like the older klipsch you mention.

I am more comparing the prices to the more expensive speakers such as high end paradigms, B&W's, etc. that have very very nice cabinets, very good dealers, very nice looking drivers, excellent customer service, warranties etc. All of these features of the speakers and the name cost money, which removes money from the speaker performance. The SEOS designs basically removes all cost except for component cost.

The klipsch forte II are the exact type of speaker that I would expect to come close in value to DIY, as there are very little "bells and whistles" on them. They have very standard box shaped cabinets with fairly industrial looking design.
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post #22 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtight View Post

I'm sorry but this is not a fair impression to give people. I highly doubt these kits sound better then speakers costing x10 the price. I've built some nice - well regarded diy kits and for the money you can usually compare them to speakers costing 2-3 times the price - NOT 10!

I personally don't use that rule either. But I also believe that would depend on the speakers being compared. There are some very expensive speakers costing thousands that might not sound as good as some DIY speakers costing 10x less. Obviously that doesn't apply every speaker being compared.

The 10x rule that I've heard people use is likely based on the cost of the parts in those other speakers. But that's because Klipsch/Infinity/Polk buy in high volume and they're doing their best to keep the price of the parts low. So the sum of the parts in their speaker might be $60 and they sell for $400 - $500. I believe that's where the 8-10x rule is coming from.
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Quote:
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I personally don't use that rule either. But I also believe that would depend on the speakers being compared. There are some very expensive speakers costing thousands that might not sound as good as some DIY speakers costing 10x less. Obviously that doesn't apply every speaker being compared.

The 10x rule that I've heard people use is likely based on the cost of the parts in those other speakers. But that's because Klipsch/Infinity/Polk buy in high volume and they're doing their best to keep the price of the parts low. So the sum of the parts in their speaker might be $60 and they sell for $400 - $500. I believe that's where the 8-10x rule is coming from.

A speaker manufacturer is not spending the same amount of drivers and crossover parts that us DIYer's do... not even close. On top of that, many of them make the drivers. So a driver that might cost us $50 cost them maybe $10. Cabinets are also much cheaper for a manufacturer to build.

I simply don't buy the 10x comments - they are completely overly exaggerated and not fair to beginner DIYers. Are they great deals? you bet, let's just give people some more realistic performance. I might build a SEO offering and do some listening comparisons and measurements just to see wink.gif
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post #24 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 08:08 AM
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Too many locked threads with the hopes of arguing these issues. DIY will always be a way to custom fit a design into a HT.
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post #25 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 10:22 AM
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I think my SEOS speakers with td12's in them are better than my old Lascalas.

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post #26 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtight View Post

A speaker manufacturer is not spending the same amount of drivers and crossover parts that us DIYer's do... not even close. On top of that, many of them make the drivers. So a driver that might cost us $50 cost them maybe $10. Cabinets are also much cheaper for a manufacturer to build.

That's exactly what I said in the post above. wink.gif They build their stuff to keep prices as low as possibly and buy in bulk so that they can mark them up by a lot.
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post #27 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I just did a little messing around watching action scenes in Wolverine with Audyssey on and with it off. The first thing I hate is how it turns down the sub. I know it is not accurate, but I like running my subs hot. If Audyssey sets my mains at -1.0, I normally set the subs to +4.0. So I generally like to run +5 over my mains.

Audyssey set my mains to -1.0 and set the fusion-8 surrounds at -6.5. I liked it better at -.2.0 or so.

Am I way off on these settings? I wish there was a way to get the Denon AVR to save them.

What would you cross these speakers over at? Right now I have my B&W's and the Fusions crossed at 60hz. One thing I just noticed is that I am not hearing the highs in the mains like I normally would. Like the "ting" sound of a bullet shell casings. I'm not sure this is due to the xover or the room.
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post #28 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 12:01 PM
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See your subs with volume on the sub halfway. Then run it but just crank up the sub to 3/4th volume on the sub itself. Don't change any of the settings on the receiver once it's all set up right. That way you can return to it by just setting your sub at 50%

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post #29 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

See your subs with volume on the sub halfway. Then run it but just crank up the sub to 3/4th volume on the sub itself. Don't change any of the settings on the receiver once it's all set up right. That way you can return to it by just setting your sub at 50%

I'll give that a try. I'll rerun Audyssey with my iNukes turned down a bit more and then just bump the gain up.
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post #30 of 61 Old 07-08-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

See your subs with volume on the sub halfway. Then run it but just crank up the sub to 3/4th volume on the sub itself. Don't change any of the settings on the receiver once it's all set up right. That way you can return to it by just setting your sub at 50%

I am not sure if I explained this right but usually your LFE out on your receiver is adjust at the signal level in the level and eq process. The reason why your sub is set to -1 is probably because you have your sub's volume turned up. Try turning that down and you should get a setting that is higher like +2 to compensate. Once your done with the calibration if you prefer you sub hot just turn up the sub volume on the sub itself and that won't effect your calibrated settings on the receiver.

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