0db way to loud? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Fusion-12 Tempest LCR

Audyssey MultEQ XT Enabled
Dynamic EQ Disabled
Subs turned off (Switched EP4000 off)

 

The spl meter is sitting on the back rest of the couch and the mic would be right where my ears would be. I turned off the amp for the subs to see what kind of levels I'm getting at reference (0db) from the speakers...its just way to loud. I calibrated the system using the receivers Audyssey mic and did the 8 positions. You can see in the video (dark knight rises) that it actually hits 114db near the end. Is this normal? I usually watch movies at -10db.

 

Before watching the video, PLEASE lower the volume down because the phones mic was clipping real bad. Sounds horrible tongue.gif

 

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post #2 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 05:31 PM
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Depends on the movie, but sometimes my 0dB is insane. Its wayyyy too loud, and sometimes its not enough. Like Tron Legacy is ridiculous at -10..
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post #3 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 06:17 PM
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I actually had a discussion about this before and different processors set 0 dBs at reference(105 dBs peak) and some much louder. I have owned many processors and all my mass market gear always played 0 dBs much louder than any IMAX theater I have been to. My high end gear plays 10 dBs lower so maybe this is why people prefer high end gear. It is a volume thing! Now reference is 105 dBs per speaker so if all speakers are going it can get louder but not sure how loud is theoretical maximum. TDKR is one of the loudest movies I have heard and needs to be 10 dBs below reference to sound good. Well, I mean not to sound like it will take your head off.
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post #4 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 07:21 PM
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There are very few movies I can get to reference on. And most of those don't include any action titles. I find myself listening between 10 and 14 below reference. I watched Total Recall for the first time the other day at -10, and it was freaking insane.

Not only are processors different, but there really is no standard in the movie industry either.

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post #5 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 07:33 PM
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i usually sit around -20
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post #6 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

i usually sit around -20

At -20 I'd have to run my subs about 15db's hot. smile.gif

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post #7 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 07:49 PM
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-12.5 is my usual setting to conserve dynamics. -10 on TDKR is crazy loud with SHO-10's powered by an XPA-3 and Onkyo NR-809 used as prep pro and surrond amp. Surrounds are JBL 8040as. Very few movies i can play at reference and not sound too loud. Fantasia is a movie where reference sounds great for me.

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post #8 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 08:01 PM
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I am between -17 to -10db for various sources. Perhaps gone as high as -5db but not for any considerable length of time Or perhaps planning to listen from another room altogether!!!! smile.gif

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post #9 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 08:16 PM
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I listen at -5 to 0 dBs.
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post #10 of 64 Old 07-07-2013, 08:17 PM
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I'm generally -5 to -10 on most movies with the wife and reference by myself. Though some movies that loud are pretty insane.

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post #11 of 64 Old 07-08-2013, 10:22 AM
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Reference is what? 85db-A pinknoise per speaker?
With the sub 10 to 15db-C more than that.
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post #12 of 64 Old 07-08-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Reference is what? 85db-A pinknoise per speaker?
With the sub 10 to 15db-C more than that.

105 for mains and 115 for sub IMSMC.

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post #13 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

105 for mains and 115 for sub IMSMC.

I think that's peak, not continuous.
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post #14 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 10:54 AM
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Best article explaining the differences stated in calibration levels:

http://www.meyersound.com/pdf/cinema_technical_papers/cinema_calibration_tech_report.pdf

The problems I have found most explain the 'loudness' people are experiencing is either in the mix itself (clipping), which is unfortunately NOT rare, or people without linear playback capability at high levels. Digital clipping is HARSH. it is not how a speaker distorts slowly, or an analog signal chain is overdriven. It goes from clean to crap very quickly. Tron:Legacy is horrible in this regard, which is why it 'sounds' louder.

Then there are amp/speaker problems.

Take your garden-variety 87dB 1W/1m sensitive, baffle-step corrected speaker. You sit 13 feet away. That's 87dB with one watt; instantly subtract 12dB for sitting 13 feet away, giving you 77dB. To get to 105dB (maximum dB RMS allowed on a soundtrack for LCRS channels), you would need 640 Watts. To listen at -10dBRef, you need 64 Watts, well within an AVR's capabilities. That's with zero equalization. If you use Audyssey, it can add up to 9dB of boost, taking away more headroom.

Now, mount those 87dB speakers flush in the wall. You gain 6dB instantly after rewiring the crossover, as the high frequencies no longer have to be attenuated (proper baffle step compensation was used). With 93dB sensitive speakers, now you only need 160 Watts to get to 105dB, minus headroom robbed by Audyssey, as it tries to correct 1st reflection point suckouts and the like.

You can now see why High Sensitivity speakers (95+dB 1W/1m) are almost necessary for reference playback. For LOW DISTORTION Reference Playback, you need Ultra High Sensitivity Speakers (>100dB 1w/1m). Why? If you can FIND speaker distortion graphs, they are taken at 1Watt. Distortion and power compression increase quickly as power is added. Even the most robust 87dB freestanding speaker will probably not sound good with 640 Watts in, nor will it actually give 105dB at 13 feet away (I am not counting boundary reinforcement at the moment, as it introduces more than just boost in the LF region). Even the high sensitivity designs will start to distort when fed over 100W, albeit they will be reaching much higher playback levels before sounding real bad. MKTheater runs the highest sensitivity LCR I know of. If he reports a mix is too loud, it is likely clipped, as his LCRS amp/speaker combos have lots of headroom, or it is a processor fault, leading to exaggerated levels.

When I measure films, I use MeyerSound's criteria. A 10% modulated sinewave will read -23dB when measured with RMS metering. That means 105dB RMS peaks, and 108dB instantaneous peaks.

In the bass, when all channels +LFE are driven at 0dBFS, you will get instantaneous peaks of 126dB at the listening position for 5.1, and 128dB for 7.1 (subtract 3dB for RMS peaks respectively). That is really powerful stuff. Hardly anyone has that kind of low distortion playback capability in an HT, and definitely not any movie theater I have ever listened to.

I use 93dB sensitive LCRS speakers. I can only playback at -7dBRef before the speakers start to sound bad, even with a 100W AVR. I sit 9 feet away. That's 93dB and subtract 8dB off the bat for distance, down to 85dB. Theoretically, 100W should get me to 105dB. But I use Audyssey, and it robs me of 7dB of headroom, limiting my loudest listening to -7dBRef before they distort more than I would like...Auto-EQ algorithms do not understand how much headroom they are taking most of the time..... With my Audyssey MultEQ XT, it applies cuts wherever it sees fit (sounds good, no headroom loss, right?). But then it applies an overall boost so that there will be no perceived volume change when Audyssey is switched on or off (correctly so). That boost robs you of headroom everywhere Audyssey DIDN'T apply a cut. Audyssey can boost up to 9dB.

Clean Reference is hard to reach (it is a tall order!). People like the folks at DIYSoundGroup and others have made approaching reference level playback much easier to attain with AVR power.


JSS
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post #15 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Best article explaining the differences stated in levels:

???

Missing link?


Anyway. I usually listen anywhere from -15dB to -7dB. Depends on the movie and my mood. Any higher and my speakers and ears can't take anymore. Hopefully with some new speakers and some extra room treatment I can push for louder.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #16 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 11:48 AM
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Link and edited post above.

Scott, with your proposed system, Reference level playback with an unclipped, well-executed, dynamic soundtrack should sound great, and not 'too loud'.

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post #17 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 11:50 AM
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Good! Cuz that's what I'm going for. biggrin.gif Although my room has some thick curtains helping a good bit I still need to add some more treatments around and about. Still got some gnarly slap echo. frown.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #18 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 12:00 PM
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Yes, I agree. Just like FOH alludes to, the room is the last and most of the time, most important piece of the puzzle.

Good way to blend acoustic treatment in:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/487747/fabric-frames/780#post_23041154

That entire thread is gold. Also pink fluffy superchunks for the corners (any corners) scroll down to the corner bass traps:

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/Acoustic.html

Great and inexpensive way (pink fluffy is less expensive than OC703) to tame modal ringing in the midbass....

Back on topic, sorry for de-rail.


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post #19 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 02:04 PM
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I have a list of too loud at reference, not many, but some. This thread happen to include one of those movies, TDKR is really loud at reference and louder than most! At -5 MV it is very nice. I just watched Jurassic Park T-rex scene at reference and it was a great level, then I popped in The Hurt Locker and it was louder than Jurassic Park. Both are not as loud as TDKR. TDK I can watch at reference all day long along with Transformers. I also have my bass 10 dBs hot(I can't help it) so it is 10 dBs over reference and The Hurt Locker was cool!
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post #20 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 02:11 PM
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The ENTIRE LotR trilogy.

eek.gif

I can also echo pretty much everything James just said too.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #21 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 02:36 PM
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Scott,
you just wait, LOTR is one of my favorite mixes and I live at reference with them. They are about as loud as the Hurt Locker at reference. I guess it helps to have about 109 dBs of sensitivity from 150hz and up and 103 dBs at 80-150hz. 80hz is probably better than that since the subs are helping still. I have measured my speakers(each one) at 105 dBs with sine waves and I get 3% THD at 2.2khz and under 1% everywhere else. I get 6% THD at 2.2 kHz with my beta 10's, the deltalites are at 3%. Now this is at reference at 14 feet away! My subs are under 2% at reference or 115 dBs at the LP. So I am very clean at reference and just wonder what others would measure doing the same tests and why reference sounds bad. I bet their THD is much higher.
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post #22 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have a list of too loud at reference, not many, but some. This thread happen to include one of those movies, TDKR is really loud at reference and louder than most! At -5 MV it is very nice. I just watched Jurassic Park T-rex scene at reference and it was a great level, then I popped in The Hurt Locker and it was louder than Jurassic Park. Both are not as loud as TDKR. TDK I can watch at reference all day long along with Transformers. I also have my bass 10 dBs hot(I can't help it) so it is 10 dBs over reference and The Hurt Locker was cool!

TDKR and Immortals are a mess, and will not sound 'clean' on any system. Tron:Legacy, is a mess, but it has an excuse. With all the modulation and distortion applied to character's voices, you can make a case that the clipping is intentional.....

MK, you are one of the few folks who can really listen to what is on the disc with very high fidelity at Reference Level. I remember you telling a story of a friend at your place who was stunned with how they thought Reference would be much 'louder'.....

JSS
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post #23 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

The spl meter is sitting on the back rest of the couch and the mic would be right where my ears would be. I turned off the amp for the subs to see what kind of levels I'm getting at reference (0db) from the speakers...its just way to loud. I calibrated the system using the receivers Audyssey mic and did the 8 positions. You can see in the video (dark knight rises) that it actually hits 114db near the end. Is this normal? I usually watch movies at -10db.

After you ran audessey did you check the trim levels it set to make sure none of them were maxed out? When I first ran it with my SEOS speakers I had the gain too low on one of my subs. As a result Audessey set my mains at the lowest trim setting (-12 IIRC) and set maximum boost on the sub (+9db?). Even with those settings maxed out the mains were too loud and the sub too quite. Adjusting gain on the sub amp allowed Audessey to set all the channels at the correct level.
Watching your video it looks like dialog is coming through at up to 110db! That just ain't right! A quick google search on DKR pulls up a dialnorm value of +4, which if I understand right means reference level should be -4 on your receiver with that disc. That would put you closer to reference level 105db peaks.
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post #24 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 04:59 PM
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Compared to my JTR T8's I had. -5 does not sound very loud at all on my system. I have listened to movies with my wife at -5 and she does not seem to notice it being loud. She would start complaining with the JTR's anytime I went louder than -15. I am using the SEOS-12 with DNA-360 and TD12M. Active using MiniDSP10x10HD. Sending 300 watts to the TD12M and 100 watts to the DNA-360's. It sounds so quiet compared to the T8's that I kept getting my SPL meter out to confirm. Now this is for movie playback. If I play Pandora (I know mp3) I do not play it nearly as loud. Just threw on music, just to hear what it sounds like.

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post #25 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

After you ran audessey did you check the trim levels it set to make sure none of them were maxed out? When I first ran it with my SEOS speakers I had the gain too low on one of my subs. As a result Audessey set my mains at the lowest trim setting (-12 IIRC) and set maximum boost on the sub (+9db?). Even with those settings maxed out the mains were too loud and the sub too quite. Adjusting gain on the sub amp allowed Audessey to set all the channels at the correct level.
Watching your video it looks like dialog is coming through at up to 110db! That just ain't right! A quick google search on DKR pulls up a dialnorm value of +4, which if I understand right means reference level should be -4 on your receiver with that disc. That would put you closer to reference level 105db peaks.

The left and right are at -6db and the center at -7db. The two suurounds are -6db. The sub at -1db. I wonder if it has to do with dialnorm like you mentioned. I'll have to do some research on that.
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post #26 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 07:34 PM
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Dude with those efficient high SPL speakers 0db is extremely loud. I watch around -20 on my Denon AVR3312IC and my speakers are not as loud as yours

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post #27 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 07:58 PM
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105 dBs is 105 dBs, the difference is amount of amp power, compression, and distortion.

Max,
Immortals sounds fantastic in my room and much better than TDKR. I know it clips but tolerable, Tron clips louder to me. I can watch both Tron and immortals at reference with no problems but TDKR is like yelling at me during normal conversations. I still love the movie though and just turn it down 5 dBs.
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post #28 of 64 Old 07-09-2013, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Scott,
you just wait, LOTR is one of my favorite mixes and I live at reference with them. They are about as loud as the Hurt Locker at reference. I guess it helps to have about 109 dBs of sensitivity from 150hz and up and 103 dBs at 80-150hz. 80hz is probably better than that since the subs are helping still. I have measured my speakers(each one) at 105 dBs with sine waves and I get 3% THD at 2.2khz and under 1% everywhere else. I get 6% THD at 2.2 kHz with my beta 10's, the deltalites are at 3%. Now this is at reference at 14 feet away! My subs are under 2% at reference or 115 dBs at the LP. So I am very clean at reference and just wonder what others would measure doing the same tests and why reference sounds bad. I bet their THD is much higher.

You got me excited to build my beta-10cx surrounds!
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post #29 of 64 Old 07-10-2013, 07:32 AM
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Which design?
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post #30 of 64 Old 07-10-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
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Which design?

With the 220ti, exactly like yours.
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