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post #1 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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When designing my new room I would really like all the amps in another room. This requires longer runs of subwoofer wire as well as all others, surrounds ect.

What are the effects of longer wire lenth, provided the gauge meets the lenth. When ,talking subwoofers, do you actually lose control of the driver with long runs. I have always used very short runs for subs.

By another room, I'm thinking the basement below the room, so not crazy long runs.

Has anyone actually measured and recorded graphs showing a change in the FR due to long runs of wire......

Kg
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post #2 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 11:42 AM
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http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

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post #3 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post


Has anyone actually measured and recorded graphs showing a change in the FR due to long runs of wire......
There are none worth mentioning, especially with subs. All that matters is adequate gauge to keep insertion loss inaudible and have sufficient current capacity. Use this:
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf

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post #4 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 04:40 PM
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crown has a white paper that includes wire run effects on damping factor.

in this one i think: http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/133472.pdf

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post #5 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

crown has a white paper that includes wire run effects on damping factor.

in this one i think: http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/133472.pdf
I'd ignore that. Read what Roger Russell has to say about it.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

By the point that damping factor becomes significant resistance, capacitance and inductance far overshadow it anyway. That pretty much applies to over 100 foot runs, and at that point you should place the amps closer to the speakers anyway.

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post #6 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 06:38 PM
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i hear what you are saying bill. it's just that is crown engineers talking about amplifiers, damping factor, and wire.

seems like there might be something to what they have to say.

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post #7 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 07:15 PM
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The Dick Pierce papers on Damping Factor:

Damping Factor: Effects On System Response
Dick Pierce
Professional Audio Development

more technical:
http://www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/DampingFactor.pdf

less technical:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response

Kevin
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post #8 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post

The Dick Pierce papers on Damping Factor:

Damping Factor: Effects On System Response
Dick Pierce
Professional Audio Development

more technical:
http://www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/DampingFactor.pdf
That's definitive. Much ballyhoo is made by some SS amp manufacturers about the need for high damping factor. Not the least bit coincidental is the fact that SS has high damping factor. But if high damping factor made that much difference tube amps, which have a low damping factor, wouldn't work well, and that has never proven to be the case. Perhaps the combination of tubes and extremely long speaker cables could potentially result in a low enough damping factor to be audible, but not with SS.

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post #9 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The most civil wire discussion to date ! So much reading material. I ask this because i had a brief pro audio stint and an Engineer over at Ashly audio of Rochester NY had mentioned damping factors to me when my brain wasnt up to it, inregards to speaker lenth and how the amp loses its ability to control the driver at long runs.

Ok, i got some reading to do...... ........ i use to sell some pretty pricey wire back in the day of brick and mortar, i'm ashamed to say
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post #10 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 09:30 AM
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KG, I had never heard of Ashly Audio until you mentioned them. I am in Rochester as well. I wonder if they sell directly to the public locally? I am in the market for a sub amp.
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post #11 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtsdig View Post

KG, I had never heard of Ashly Audio until you mentioned them. I am in Rochester as well. I wonder if they sell directly to the public locally? I am in the market for a sub amp.

Check out Sound Source up by Cobbs Hill. They internet match price and sell pro gear used.

I love ashly gear, but there are other choices.... behringer EP series
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post #12 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 11:03 AM
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I have 12 50ft 12 awg in-wall runs to my front wall, it powers the LMS to full excursion.
So you are good for "at least" that distance.
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post #13 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I have 12 50ft 12 awg in-wall runs to my front wall, it powers the LMS to full excursion.
So you are good for "at least" that distance.

Thats good to know, Ty !
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post #14 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post


What are the effects of longer wire length, provided the gauge meets the length. When ,talking subwoofers, do you actually lose control of the driver with long runs. I have always used very short runs for subs.

Speaker cable has 3 properties that can affect the sound quality of the speaker:

(1) Resistance
(2) Inductance
(3) Capacitance

The speaker has similar properties, and the overall effect of the wire and the speaker is based on how the entire assembly works as an electrical network.

The properties of most cables and speakers are such that the capacitance of the wire has minimal and surely inaudible effects.

The inductance of the wire may have some noticeable effect on the sound at the highest frequencies, although it is usual for many of them to cancel out.

The resistance of the wire has the potential to affect all audible frequencies and needs to be worried about the most.
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Has anyone actually measured and recorded graphs showing a change in the FR due to long runs of wire......

Yes, but if the wire has a reasonable length (25-50 feet max) and is thick enough to keep its resistance reasonable (12 gauge is both economical and usually enough to minimize audible effects) these changes are minimal.

If your system includes an automated system optimization facility (Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO) it will automatically compensate for reasonable losses in the speaker cables even if they would otherwise be audible.

There are two common ways to look at the effects of the impedance of a loudspeaker and the source impedance of the power amp and the speaker cable. One is to treat the system as an electrical network which is usually more intuitive. The other is to introduce an artificial parameter known as "damping factor" which tends to be less intuitve.
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post #15 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

The most civil wire discussion to date ! So much reading material. I ask this because i had a brief pro audio stint and an Engineer over at Ashly audio of Rochester NY had mentioned damping factors to me when my brain wasnt up to it, inregards to speaker lenth and how the amp loses its ability to control the driver at long runs.
As mentioned if the wire is long enough for its effect on damping factor to be heard it's probably ten times the length where capacitance and inductance would be heard. And that's with full range speakers. Capacitance and inductance cause highs to roll off, which isn't a concern with subs. With subs all you have to worry about is resistance, and if the resistance is low enough not to cause power loss it's also low enough that damping factor is not a concern.

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post #16 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 01:43 PM
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Put it this way; I have had power amps with 100 foot runs of 14 ga wire with around 300 watts pumping out. My issue was delay, not attenuation or sound quality.
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post #17 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz View Post

Put it this way; I have had power amps with 100 foot runs of 14 ga wire with around 300 watts pumping out. My issue was delay, not attenuation or sound quality.
The speed of an electron wave through wire is about 130,000 miles per second. I wouldn't be too concerned about delay.

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post #18 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like 12ga, stranded is the way to go. Is there a point where too much of a good thing is bad ? Can i get into a gauge of wire that is too thick, like 10ga or 8ga ?
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post #19 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Can i get into a gauge of wire that is too thick, like 10ga or 8ga ?
No, but if the insertion loss is less than 1dB you won't hear any difference. Depending on the length and speaker impedance even 16ga. may have no audible insertion loss, and all you'll get for spending more is less cash in your wallet.

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post #20 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

No, but if the insertion loss is less than 1dB you won't hear any difference. Depending on the length and speaker impedance even 16ga. may have no audible insertion loss, and all you'll get for spending more is less cash in your wallet.

Just as I suspected..... One less thing to worry about, Thanx guys.
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post #21 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Sounds like 12ga, stranded is the way to go.

It's the no-brainer, one size fits all solution.
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Is there a point where too much of a good thing is bad ? Can i get into a gauge of wire that is too thick, like 10ga or 8ga ?

Cables that are excessively thick like say 00000 gauge can cause high frequency losses that may even be audible due to skin effect and inductance. In very extreme circumstances you can actually overdo a good thing.
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post #22 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The speed of an electron wave through wire is about 130,000 miles per second. I wouldn't be too concerned about delay.

My speakers were spread almost 200 feet from each other. There was a considerable amount of delay heard from one position to another.
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post #23 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz View Post

My speakers were spread almost 200 feet from each other. There was a considerable amount of delay heard from one position to another.
Of course there was, the speed of sound being 1130 feet per second. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the cable length.

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post #24 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 10:03 AM
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yeah...bill has it right. the speed of the signal
through the wire is on the order of magnitude of
tens of thousands of miles per second, so even at 200
feet of wire length, the delay in the wire itself
would be less than 1 millionth of a second, which is
effectively zero.

depending where you were standing while listening
to the speakers though and the differential distance
to them could be 50-100-200 feet and that would cause
delay of about 45, 90, or 180 milliseconds which is
enough to start sounding like an echo.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #25 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 10:24 AM
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200-400 nanoseconds; about the same time that a 1ghz process can process a few hundred 64Bit bytes of info.
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post #26 of 26 Old 07-10-2013, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

It's the no-brainer, one size fits all solution.
Cables that are excessively thick like say 00000 gauge can cause high frequency losses that may even be audible due to skin effect and inductance. In very extreme circumstances you can actually overdo a good thing.

Cool, thanx Arnyk !
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