Looking for Amp Recommendation for (4x) SI/Dayton 18” in 4 ft3 Flat Pack - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like my deal with the dual Caps S2 will fall through, so I am back in the DIY game.

 

My plan is to build 4 subs: either SI or Dayton 18” with 4 ft3 Flat Packs. Most likely, I will run them in pairs, so I am looking for at least stereo or even 4 channels, if want to keep my options open.

 

I already own a Behringer DXC2496 that I could use for DSP.

 

I read that the SI or Daytons 18” like somewhere around 650 Watts/each, but I have also read that some people drive them with 1000+ Watts/each. So am not quite sure how much power I really need. I have heard that going with 4 ohm over 2 ohm would be better, as some amps struggle with the lower impedance.

 

Popular amp choices around here seem to be:

iNUKE  3000 or 6000

EP4000

CV5000

 

I like the class D amp concept, as they seem to be more energy efficient, in particular at idle. That said, I plan to use switched outlets for the amp(s), so I can turn them off, when not in use.  

Also, the design of the iNUKE face plate is just outright ugly IMHO. I will have the amp out of sight, though.

 

Which amp would you recommend and why? Will a single do, or do I need 2, or even more?

 

Looking forward to your recommendations!

 

Thanks!

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post #2 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 10:19 AM
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Take my advice with a grain of salt as I have not personally run the inuke. The EP4000 is a perfect amp for that combo. My only complaint with them is you need to change out the fans as they sound like a jet engine. The CV5000 would be a nice amp as well, I chose to go the Behringer route at the time, as a pair of them was a bit less than the CV5000.

As far as 4 vs 2 ohm; a 4 ohm bridged load is the same as a 2 ohm stereo. Any of the above amps will drive either just fine. My EP's barely get warm after near reference level sessions.

As far as the wattage differences; a lot has to do with airspace. I'd model each driver in winisd so you can see the excursion vs cab size relation. Smaller cabs allow you to add more power and vice versa. Personally, I found the overall output to be very similar. So if space is at a premium, build smaller and add more power. If you're amp limited, do the opposite.

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post #3 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 11:02 AM
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I'm planning a similar sub build and went with the inuke 6000 but if you already have DSP I would go with the EP and save $. I'm likely going with SI 18D4s because I can get more power from the amp vs the 4 ohm daytons with 4 subs.
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post #4 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Take my advice with a grain of salt as I have not personally run the inuke. The EP4000 is a perfect amp for that combo. My only complaint with them is you need to change out the fans as they sound like a jet engine. The CV5000 would be a nice amp as well, I chose to go the Behringer route at the time, as a pair of them was a bit less than the CV5000.

As far as 4 vs 2 ohm; a 4 ohm bridged load is the same as a 2 ohm stereo. Any of the above amps will drive either just fine. My EP's barely get warm after near reference level sessions.

As far as the wattage differences; a lot has to do with airspace. I'd model each driver in winisd so you can see the excursion vs cab size relation. Smaller cabs allow you to add more power and vice versa. Personally, I found the overall output to be very similar. So if space is at a premium, build smaller and add more power. If you're amp limited, do the opposite.


Thanks bass addict!

 

I have seen all those fan mod threads for the Behringers, but would I need to swap out the fans on the CV5000 as well - I am looking for preferably inaudible fans.

 

Re: cab size, as I wrote I am set on the 4 ft3 flat packs. This is the only viable option with my very limited woodworking capabilities.

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post #5 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donivan View Post

.... I'm likely going with SI 18D4s because I can get more power from the amp vs the 4 ohm daytons with 4 subs.

 

 

Thanks donivan!

 

I am not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate a bit more? I thought that SI 18D4 are pretty much the same as the Daytons RSS490HO-4 18".

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post #6 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Coming back to the output power:

 

This is what I gathered as specs:

 

CV-5000          Rated Power:

                      Stereo @ 4 ohms 1800 W

                      Stereo @ 2 ohms 2500 W

 

                      Bridge @ 4 ohms 5000 W

                       

                       

EP4000           stereo mode

                       950 watts RMS @ 4Ω,

                       1,250 watts @ 2Ω

                       

                       bridged mono mode:

                       2,400 watts RMS @ 4Ω

                       

                       

iNUKE 6000      2 x 3000 Watts into 4 Ohms  (RMS or peak or ??)

 

 

It appears that I would need either (2) EP4000 or (1) CV-5000. I am not sure how the iNUKE 6000 would fit in.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Are there any other amps I should be looking at?

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post #7 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks donivan!

I am not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate a bit more? I thought that SI 18D4 are pretty much the same as the Daytons RSS490HO-4 18".
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Daytons are available as single 4 ohm only, whereas the SI's are available in D2 or D4 for more wiring options.

Single 4's can only be wired as 4 ohm (wired individually), or 2 or 8 ohm (wired in pairs). D4 can be wired for 4 ohm load (pairs) which matches perfectly to EP4000 bridged.

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post #8 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 12:42 PM
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I run an EP2500 (same as 4000) with 4x15 sealed subs.

Switched out the fan it's pretty quiet and never gave me any issues.
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post #9 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post


Thanks donivan!

I am not sure I follow. Could you please elaborate a bit more? I thought that SI 18D4 are pretty much the same as the Daytons RSS490HO-4 18".
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Daytons are available as single 4 ohm only, whereas the SI's are available in D2 or D4 for more wiring options.

Single 4's can only be wired as 4 ohm (wired individually), or 2 or 8 ohm (wired in pairs). D4 can be wired for 4 ohm load (pairs) which matches perfectly to EP4000 bridged.

 

Ahhh! Got it. Good catch. I somehow thought the Daytons were also DVC.

 

So you recommend (2) EP4000 bridged for (4) SI 18D4 - got it!  Thanks!

 

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post #10 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I run an EP2500 (same as 4000) with 4x15 sealed subs.

Switched out the fan it's pretty quiet and never gave me any issues.

 

 

Looks like another vote for the analog amp style - thanks, smokarz!

 

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post #11 of 33 Old 07-13-2013, 05:56 PM
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I just finished building four of the Dayton 18's .. I settled on the Peavey IPR2 7500. Gorilla did the same ... except double everything wink.gif. The Peavey can be had for ~$750 if you can find one. I did 3.6 cu/ft boxes due to my sub location.

Edit: If you go SI, I believe they prefer a little less power than the Dayton's.
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post #12 of 33 Old 07-14-2013, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I just finished building four of the Dayton 18's .. I settled on the Peavey IPR2 7500. Gorilla did the same ... except double everything wink.gif. The Peavey can be had for ~$750 if you can find one. I did 3.6 cu/ft boxes due to my sub location.

Edit: If you go SI, I believe they prefer a little less power than the Dayton's.

 

 

Thanks for the tip pauleyc. I will keep it on my short list.

 

I read in the other thread that you were able to find one, so Big Congrats!

 

Please post your findings once you got a chance to check it out. I saw that you plan to use it with quad Daytons. What cabinets will you use?

 

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post #13 of 33 Old 07-14-2013, 06:43 AM
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What cabinets will you use?

I built a custom MDF box. Two Daytons per box (divided) w/ about 3.5cuft per driver. I won't be ready to fire them up, but I hope to be at a point where I can post a picture sometime this week.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleyc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

What cabinets will you use?

I built a custom MDF box. Two Daytons per box (divided) w/ about 3.5cuft per driver. I won't be ready to fire them up, but I hope to be at a point where I can post a picture sometime this week.

 

Looking forward to it!

 

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post #15 of 33 Old 10-25-2013, 01:34 PM
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I am very new to the DIY/AIY & HT enthusiast scene I will be going with 4 SI D218's and 4 sealed flat packs (4 cubic ft each)setup. But I may be missing an important piece of the puzzle. I read through all 700+ replies on Carp's Octo build and I believe he is running all eight off of one CV-5000. Reading the information above it looks like the options are 1 CV5000 or 2 EP4000 amps for 4 sealed subs. I would like to keep everything within safe limits. My question is whether I can run my four sealed subs with 1 EP4000 in 2 ohm stereo. That seems to put it closed to the recommended peak RMS for each speaker...if I'm reading everything correctly.



Secondary question would be a recommended Mini DSP for my setup...or will Audyssey XT32 do what I need it to do?

Misc Info:
- My room is 4000 cubic feet and open via a doorway to another 2000 cubic feet.
- I normally set my volume at -5 for movies.
- These subs will be replacing a Velodyne CT150.
- Using Onkyo TX-NR818 Preouts
- Room treatments are next!!!

Sorry for hijacking this thread. I'm still trying to figure out if it is worse to hijack a thread that is very similar in need or to add a new thread that may have been answered in some degree already. I don't want to appear lazy eek.gif

I am very thankful that this forum exists. So much to read and learn about...and it is a lot of fun doing so!!!

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post #16 of 33 Old 10-25-2013, 01:41 PM
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"My question is whether I can run my four sealed subs with 1 EP4000 in 2 ohm stereo."

that would be just fine.

if you want an amp with built in eq, the inuke 3000dsp would be a good choice.

if you want a step up from there, a common approach is d4 coil drivers and an inuke6000dsp (4 ohms per channel min on that guy), but that would be more for pushing the limit (1100 watts per driver). :-)

if you want to go up from there, large ported enclosures can pick up 10db or so around the tuning frequency compared with sealed, using the same drivers and the same amp as we did in THE MARTYSUB!

if you...ok, i'll stop. :-)

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post #17 of 33 Old 10-25-2013, 03:09 PM
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Thank you for the response!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if you want a step up from there, a common approach is d4 coil drivers and an inuke6000dsp (4 ohms per channel min on that guy), but that would be more for pushing the limit (1100 watts per driver). :-)

This was my initial choice but people were talking about a roll off at 10Hz. Of course I'm not sure what the real world effect is but that was the reason I was looking at the EP4000. My HT is in a daylight basement. I have carpet over slab concrete and 2x4 walls attached to cement block foundation. So I may not even feel the effects of sub <10Hz.
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if you want to go up from there, large ported enclosures can pick up 10db or so around the tuning frequency compared with sealed, using the same drivers and the same amp as we did in THE MARTYSUB!
LOL I have been catching up and following your sub creations for the past couple of weeks. This was actually what made me start considering DIY in the first place (then sono tube, horn builds...). But then I was shown the light...aka flat packs. But maybe I could get the best of both worlds and do two sealed up front and two MARTYSUB's in the back, facing each other?


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post #18 of 33 Old 10-25-2013, 04:05 PM
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"This was my initial choice but people were talking about a roll off at 10Hz."

"rolloff at 10hz" sounds like the amp is no good at 10hz. examination of the actual curve however suggests otherwise.



http://forum.speakerplans.com/behringer-inuke-nu6000-vs-kam-kxd7200-bench-tested_topic69202_page2.html

"Of course I'm not sure what the real world effect is but that was the reason I was looking at the EP4000. My HT is in a daylight basement. I have carpet over slab concrete and 2x4 walls attached to cement block foundation. So I may not even feel the effects of sub <10Hz."

that may be right.

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post #19 of 33 Old 10-25-2013, 04:17 PM
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ya know...I might have an idea for you...we were discussing it in another thread, but it sure looks like you have the right setup for it...

one sec...here you go:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494429/help-with-speaker-subwoofer-design#post_23827678

one on each side of your massive tv should put them at 1/4 distances to the side walls.

with proper vertical driver spacing, you can then eliminate vertical nulls.

all that would be left would be to treat the rear wall and you would have pretty sweet bass everywhere in the room.

you new it was going to get good once you started posting. :-)

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post #20 of 33 Old 10-25-2013, 04:23 PM
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have a read through this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/837744/double-bass-array-dba-the-modern-bass-concept

but don't try to understand it all as you go along. at some point, it will just click how sba works.

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post #21 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

ya know...I might have an idea for you...we were discussing it in another thread, but it sure looks like you have the right setup for it...

one sec...here you go:



http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494429/help-with-speaker-subwoofer-design#post_23827678

one on each side of your massive tv should put them at 1/4 distances to the side walls.

with proper vertical driver spacing, you can then eliminate vertical nulls.

all that would be left would be to treat the rear wall and you would have pretty sweet bass everywhere in the room.

you new it was going to get good once you started posting. :-)

Ltd02, are you saying that with this vertically stacked duel 18" driver enclosure could eliminate verticle nulls if placed 1/4 distance from the side walls and assuming that the rear wall is properly treated? I read quite a bit in that Double Bass Array thread, and I think that it is an interesting concept, and one that I might be interested in trying out!
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post #22 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 10:54 AM
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I liked the concept a lot. Sadly this subwoofer design doesn't come in a flat pack:rolleyes: I'm using the flat packs as a learning tool. This may be a future build for me. I'm sure this is going to be the start of a never ending cycle of upgrading and I'm looking forward to it biggrin.gif

So I'll be going with 4 - SI 18D4 in sealed flat pack boxes powered with an inuke 6000dsp. Thank you LTD02 for the help!

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post #23 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 12:19 PM
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"Ltd02, are you saying that with this vertically stacked duel 18" driver enclosure could eliminate verticle nulls if placed 1/4 distance from the side walls and assuming that the rear wall is properly treated?"

yeah...the idea is if the drivers are placed at 1/4 distance from the boundaries (ceiling/floor in the vertical tower), they will not excite the second order mode. additionally, they will cancel out all the odd order modes. as a result, the room will be mostly mode free (save the 4th). the vertical stack eliminates the ceiling/floor modes. having 2 towers one on each side of the tv located 1/4 distance to the walls eliminates the left/right wall modes. that leaves only the front/rear wall modes and the front/rear wall 5/4 reflection/cancellation. it would solve a lot of the room problems before any treatments or eq must even be considered. a heavy dose of absorption on the rear wall would cancel out those effects and you appear to have room for that. so, you could have an amazingly clean and uniform response in your room.
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post #24 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 12:22 PM
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"I liked the concept a lot. Sadly this subwoofer design doesn't come in a flat pack"

:-)

that doesn't stop you from benefitting from the positioning. if you stack the flat packs such that the drivers are located at 1/4 distances, you can get the same effect. the big ported design just gives a lot more bass around the tuning frequency.

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post #25 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 05:34 PM
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that doesn't stop you from benefitting from the positioning. if you stack the flat packs such that the drivers are located at 1/4 distances, you can get the same effect. the big ported design just gives a lot more bass around the tuning frequency.

So I can build a little riser for the first subs and then build another "riser" fir the second subs. Would you bracket them together and fill them with sand or some other weighted substance?

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post #26 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 05:55 PM
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"So I can build a little riser for the first subs and then build another "riser" fir the second subs."

something like that might work. having the sub on top facing up would minimize vibration. i give bb props for championing vertical dual opposed stacks for that reason.

just want to make sure that they are stable and heavy enough not to vibrate. a base unit filled with sand and then the three top units somehow bracketed together seems like it would be stable against any kind of tip over.

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post #27 of 33 Old 10-26-2013, 06:08 PM
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this one requires a little imagination. :-)

purple line on right is theoretical 8 foot high. not sure what yours is. dashed lines at 1/4 distances from ceiling / floor.

design on left has one forward facing driver and two spacing units (blue). sealed unit on top faces up to minimize horizontal vibration.

design two, on right, one sealed cab faces down. other sealed cab faces up. no net vibration in this model. blue riser would need to allow for driver in red cab to perform. a 3 inch or greater clearance should be fine performance wise.


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post #28 of 33 Old 11-29-2013, 04:19 PM
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So I ended up doing two 4ft3 sealed SI 18D4's with an inuke 3000dsp bridged (will add two more after the new year). I have been utilizing REW via a laptop with a Daytona Audio IMM-6 mic (18hz-20khz) for my equalizing measurements. The following reading was done post Audyssey XT32 & post PEQ w/o HPF & AVR LPF @ 120hz. The 20hz roll off seen here is due to my mic limitations...I think.



The file is subs only w/o smoothing. I was having trouble with that 38hz dip. It seems most of the things I do to fix this one area throws a wrench into the other areas. This is my first time playing with any sort of PEQ. I'm a little stumped on the what precautions I am suppose to take to limit excursion for my subs (HPF? or using Inuke natural roll-off?). Thank you for all the input so far!

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post #29 of 33 Old 12-01-2013, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viruscwu View Post

So I ended up doing two 4ft3 sealed SI 18D4's with an inuke 3000dsp bridged (will add two more after the new year). I have been utilizing REW via a laptop with a Daytona Audio IMM-6 mic (18hz-20khz) for my equalizing measurements. The following reading was done post Audyssey XT32 & post PEQ w/o HPF & AVR LPF @ 120hz. The 20hz roll off seen here is due to my mic limitations...I think.



The file is subs only w/o smoothing. I was having trouble with that 38hz dip. It seems most of the things I do to fix this one area throws a wrench into the other areas. This is my first time playing with any sort of PEQ. I'm a little stumped on the what precautions I am suppose to take to limit excursion for my subs (HPF? or using Inuke natural roll-off?). Thank you for all the input so far!

You shouldn't need a high pass filter with a sealed sub. As far as using the Behringers EQ, I am of no help, but I will say that I would not recommend boosting that bull at 38hz as that will limit headroom capacity and likely eat up a good bit of amplifier power. Do you just have one SI18 sub in this room? Sorry if that has already been mentioned, I couldn't remember. My point being that if you just have one sub, you will have room modes, some of which will be there no matter what. You can try to play with positioning, and EQ'ing for a smoother response, although your graph looks pretty good, to me. Adding a second or third SI18 will likely smooth things out even more!
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post #30 of 33 Old 12-01-2013, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

You shouldn't need a high pass filter with a sealed sub.
All speakers should be high-passed unless they will never receive enough voltage swing to push the cone past xmax. That's easily confirmed when modeling the enclosure/driver combination.

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