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post #1 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been doing a lot of reading here. I just bought a house and I'm looking for a way to better my HT experience.

I'm looking into doing the DIY route for sub(s) but I have absolutely no woodworking skills. That being said I am looking at doing one of the Dayton flat packs from PE.

What is the major differences between the Dayton 15" Reference Series HO and the Dayton 15" Ultimax? My "room" is huge as it's on open concept house and the living room, dining room, and kitchen are all open to each other.

I would most likely be driving this with the EP4000 but am open to other suggestions. The reason for the EP4000 is it allows me to add another sub quiet easily.

I just want to make sure I know exactly what I'm getting into. The flat packs are pretty straight forward to assemble but how should I attach the woofer to the box and how would I wire the amp & sub to my Denon 1712?

I'm thinking I could do either of the Daytons but would wire the Ultimax DVC in series...Use a couple of the XLR male to RCA female adapters to wire to the AVR and just some speaker wire to the sub. Correct?
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post #2 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 02:49 PM
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The Ultimax goes deeper and can play louder in a decent sized sealed box. The HO is more optimized for a ported, or very small sealed (think car audio) application.
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post #3 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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What about the HF vs the Ultimax in the 3ft sealed flat pack?

I'm betting overall the the Ultimax is a better option but is it worth the $30 over the HO?
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post #4 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 03:42 PM
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on the back of your receiver, there is an
rca labeled "subwoofer pre out".

to connect to the ep4000, you need an adapter
that changes the rca to either xlr or 1/4" trs.
such an adapter is cheap. ep4000 being pro
gear doesn't have rca connections.

the ultimax has more usable excursion, so
can create more bass.

planning on at least two would be a good idea,
as that is a pretty large area for a single unit.

i'd suggest a ported sub, or even a horn, but
i'm not sure what is currently available in kit form.

sealed subs have a natural rolloff that tend
to require some equalization to increase
the very, very bottom end spl, so that might
something to add to the list of considerations
as well as a possible fan mod for the amp to
quiet it down.

good luck with your project.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #5 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyrcks9901 View Post

What about the HF vs the Ultimax in the 3ft sealed flat pack?

I'm betting overall the the Ultimax is a better option but is it worth the $30 over the HO?

The HF will hit xmax with only 400 watts, the UM15 can take 1000 watts before hitting xmax. Considering your amp will put out more then 400 watts, the UM makes sense.

Just for comparison sake, here is the max SPL (based on rated power handling and xmax) of the 3 drivers in 3 ft3

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post #6 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the help so far guys...I'm learning more and more.

A few more questions for you if you don't mind:

1) If I understand correctly. A ported box would get me a little more down low with some loss on max SPL. That is a trade off I am willing to make. But, how do I properly design and install a port on the 3 cuft flat pack?

2) Is there a large difference between the Ultimax 15" and the 18" HO? The 4 cuft flat pack is not much larger than the 3 cuft so if I can gain something significant from it I may go that route.

Still reading a lot of build threads and I think I have the courage worked up to do this but I want to make sure I'm making a good decision regarding the choice of sub. I'm using a Klipsch RW-12d now and it's just not enough in my room.
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post #7 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 04:27 PM
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The HO15 could be ported in 3 ft3, you are going to give up some capability at and below 20hz. You would also need to switch amps to the NU3000DSP, which allows you to set a high pass filter. You have to have a filter set below the port tuning point, or you can damage the driver, as it is no longer loaded by the enclosure.

You would take a pair of these ports, at their full length.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=268-350

and cut holes for them in the back corners of the box (unless they can fit on the front, dont think they will). You have to install the ports in the corners to make sure they clear the woofer. You could also put them on the bottom of the box if you put some 3" tall feet on the bottom of the cabinet

Here is a comparison with a 22hz high pass filter set, both with 650 watts
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post #8 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Jay,

So the ported HO doesn't really gain anything over the sealed Ultimax.

This is looking to be a pretty easy decision towards the sealed Ultimax.


How would the sealed 15" Ultimax compare to the 18" HO in a 4 cuft sealed or ported?


Again, thanks for all the help! Is there a tutorial posted somewhere on how to use WinISD? I downloaded it but I'm having some difficulty using it.
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post #9 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 04:53 PM
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Here's the rs18 comparison. Both with 650 watts.



Note that even though the 18 is louder, the 15 is flatter
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post #10 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Jay,

Thanks for that. You've been very helpful.


So, it looks like I've set my mind on this:

15" Ultimax with Flat Pack:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-7097

EP4000:
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-EP4000-Professional-Accelerated-Technology/dp/B001U5JFNM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373844332&sr=8-1&keywords=ep4000

Binding Posts:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-1245

XLR to RCA adapter:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-438

Poly fill:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-317 - I am unsure of the amount needed and I've read that is depends on the 'Q' which can only be measured. Is there any way to estimate the amount needed in this box?

Duratex looks nice, any good source for it?

Anything else I'm missing?

Let's say I build one of these. Am I right in thinking I should wire the voice coils in series to provide a 4 ohm load and run the EP4000 unbridged which is capable of 950 Watts into a 4 ohm load? Then I could easily add another one of these to the second output of the EP4000 as long as I set the dip switches up for parallel, right?


Dip switch settings should ideally be: 1 - ON, 2 - don't care, 3 - OFF, 4 - parallel, 5 - parallel, 6 - OFF, 7 - OFF, 8 - OFF, 9 - don't care, 10 - OFF
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post #11 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 06:09 PM
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You can get $2 pillows at walmart for the polyfil, 2-3 should be fine.

You might want to search for "ep4000 fan mod"

Yes you'll want to run the um15 at 4ohms, and the amp will actually put out about 650 watts.

Im not familiar with the dip switches.
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post #12 of 27 Old 07-14-2013, 06:46 PM
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post #13 of 27 Old 07-15-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the fan "that" loud in the EP4000? I don't mind doing the mod, just kind of curious.

Also, how does the 15" Ultimax compare with something off the shelf; say a Rythmik LV12R, SVS PB12-NSD, or Hsu VTF-3 MK4? I ask because this build is roughly the same cost as these options.
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post #14 of 27 Old 07-15-2013, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyrcks9901 View Post

Is the fan "that" loud in the EP4000? I don't mind doing the mod, just kind of curious.

 

When its at full speed it can be fairly loud and at low speed its more like an annoying hum. I don't notice it while watching a movie but if I listen for it, I could probably hear it.

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post #15 of 27 Old 07-15-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyrcks9901 View Post


Also, how does the 15" Ultimax compare with something off the shelf; say a Rythmik LV12R, SVS PB12-NSD, or Hsu VTF-3 MK4? I ask because this build is roughly the same cost as these options.

Well, you're looking at ported 12"s vs a sealed 15" with more power. The 15" will go louder above 30hz, and below 20hz. The ported subs may have a slight output advantage near their tuning frequency. Kind of like the comparison I showed you with the HO15 ported in 3ft3, except the 12" subs will only be louder near the tuning point.

Or you could do this

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/4-ported-sub-flat-pack.html

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-464

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-752

Which will be very similar, but should also be better then a sub like the VTF3
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post #16 of 27 Old 07-15-2013, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like I'm better doing the sealed 15 Ultimax then. I can easily add a second one for minimal cost in the future and have better output across most of the spectrum even with one.

Is there any other flat pack option with a flatter response? I won't push the volume levels too high so flatness and lower extension is better.
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post #17 of 27 Old 07-16-2013, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been playing around with WinISD today and I can't get any of my graphs to look quite like yours Jay. I've attached them here as well as a screenshot of the UM15-22 Parameters. Any idea what I'm doing wrong, if anything?

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post #18 of 27 Old 07-16-2013, 05:43 PM
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The Le spec makes things funky, and the program doesn't model it correctly, so I usually just leave it blank. You can also change the xmax to 22 mm, as that is the Klippel measured value per a PE product manager. Just make sure you zero out the Vd first before changing the xmax.
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post #19 of 27 Old 07-22-2013, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been doing some planning while I save up some spare cash.

I want to make sure I wire the sub(s) right.

For one 15" Ultimax and a EP4000 should I use the EP4000 in stereo/parallel mode driving the sub at 2 ohms or should I series it for 4 ohms and use the EP4000 in bridged mode?

What about 2 subs: I think my only choice here is 2 channels at 4 ohm each and the EP4000 in parallel mode.
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post #20 of 27 Old 07-22-2013, 08:38 PM
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Yes you want to wire the UM for a 4 ohm load. I would just run a single channel on the ep4k for now. The second channel is left alone until the time comes for a second sub.
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post #21 of 27 Old 08-07-2013, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay. So my bonus check is coming August 15th and I'm getting everything in my cart ready to order.

I've been looking at amps and I know the EP4000 power rating is a bit overstated. But how does it compare to say a Crown XLS 1500 or Cerwin-Vega CV-1800?

I only ask because there is only a $20 price difference and it seems like these are more reputable brands...
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post #22 of 27 Old 08-07-2013, 04:06 PM
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The EP4k is the gold standard for price to performance ratio at $275, but I'm not sure why it's up $100 on both Amazon and Walmart. Regardless, it drives my two SI 18" subs without issue. Just don't forget the fan Sibuna recommended.
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post #23 of 27 Old 08-07-2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

The EP4k is the gold standard for price to performance ratio at $275, but I'm not sure why it's up $100 on both Amazon and Walmart. Regardless, it drives my two SI 18" subs without issue. Just don't forget the fan Sibuna recommended.

its pretty much 379 everywhere at the moment. im waiting for it to drop to sub 300 again to pick up a 2nd
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post #24 of 27 Old 08-07-2013, 09:38 PM
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+1
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post #25 of 27 Old 12-18-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Well,

I've made some minor changes but most everything is on order. Took me long enough. smile.gif

I decided to go with the 15" Ultimax in a 3 cuft flat pack. Going to use an iNuke NU3000DSP. My plan is to finish the box with Duratex.

List of Parts:
RCA to XLR cable for Receiver to Amp
Speakon cable for Amp to Sub
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4mp-uc-speakon-connector-4-pole-panel-mount--092-067 - For sub box
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-scdp-0-sealing-gasket-for-d-size-connectors-black--092-094 - Gasket for speakon terminal
Some 1/4" female spades for the back of the speakon terminal because the reviews state that soldering tends to melt the plastic. Crimp connections are as good as soldering when done properly and it makes it easier to remove the driver if necessary. Correct me if I'm wrong on this for some reason.
15" Dayton Ultimax
3cuft Flat Pack
NU3000DSP

Where I still need help:
Screws for mounting the driver
Duratex - specifically where to buy and how much I will need
How to install the speakon terminal in the sub box
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post #26 of 27 Old 12-23-2013, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The flat pack and sub showed up today. If someone could help with my last couple of questions then I'll start a build thread after the holidays.
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post #27 of 27 Old 12-24-2013, 02:34 AM
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I hear a little goes a long ways.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?236136-Duratex-and-MDF-finishing-questions

http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coatings/

Klipsch RB-75
Klipsch C-7
Klipsch RB-35
On-going SW management class
Denon
PS3
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Behringer Europower Ep4000 Professional Amplifier , Dayton Audio Rss390ho 4 15 Reference Ho Subwoofer 4 Ohm , Denon Avr 1712 Receiver

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