Help with amplification for my subs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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So I'm making a life change, started going to school again to get my bachelors in nursing. To do this my wife and I needed to sell most of what we owned to move into a very small place. We built a building on my parents property and will be living there for the next three years so that we can save up a nice nest egg as I go to school. The room is 11x15x8 and has a solid core exterior door and a 36"x60" window. I think it would be fairly easy to fill this room with sound.

There is no way floor standing speakers would fit so I sold them off and my wife asked me to get some wall mountable ones. First thing she said was "BOSE!". I said ummm no, not a chance. My friend from work was selling some speakers so I bought he as they were a great deal and a pretty decent. They are Klipsch RSX-5s with RCX-4 center. My wife likes them so that's a plus.

I tore my DIY subs apart, sold the amps and kept the drivers. So I'm working with two 12" TC sounds epic subs. It took me a lot of convincing for her to let me use both drivers. At first she wanted me to buy an 8 inch and be happy with it. I need my bass!!!

Anyways, she said they need to be in the same cabinet. So I'm going to go dual opposed and use the sub cabinet as the av stand. Itll be between 2 to 3 cubic feet. It'll hold the receiver, bluray, ect. So I need he'll with the amplifier.

First- no pro amp, in this tiny room I can't deal with any fan noise, plus my wife would go nuts as well. I'd love to just get a FP14000 and call it a day.

Second- it needs to be able to provide full power in 8 ohm bridged or 4 ohm stereo.

I'd like 500 watts per driver available. I was thinking emotiva, but have seen that people using them to run subs have an issue with them going into protect with heavy bass scenes.

So any suggestions on a stand alone amp that can provide that power with no fan and is affordable?

Thanks
Dan
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 01:33 AM
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Seems like the best solution, and a lot cheaper then options like emotiva

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-811
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post #3 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 02:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply Jay1. I would need to buy two of those u less I was happy with each driver only getting 250 watts each. That's why I was kinda hoping for a two channel amp or on that can do gobs of power at 8 ohm.

Dan
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 02:55 AM
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The standard answer for an amp with decent amounts of power without a fan is the Crown K2, if you can find one.
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post #5 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 04:36 AM
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If a giant, heavy boat anchor is OK - and to meet your requirements of big power and no fan, you're basically limiting yourself to 80lb+ amps in giant cases -look for an old Adcom 5800/5802 or Rotel 1090. Both of those amps do more than 300W/8Ω continuous and can drive basically anything.

A vintage Sunfire is another option. Don't know if they're as reliable, so it's worth asking around.

If you want something smaller and more elegant, a pair of NHT A1 monoblocs would do well. Not quite as powerful, but perfectly adequate for your needs. Outlaw has a cheap knockoff of the A1, M-something but unlike NHT they didn't bother getting their knockoff safety-certified by an NRTL. Who knows what other corners were cut. So I'd stick with the original rather than the cheap knockoff.

All four of these amps will require a preamp voltage of 2V or more to get full output.

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post #6 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 05:06 AM
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Those requirements for the amp that you are seeking are going to be pretty tough. I would reconsider going with something such as an EP4000 as you can easily do a fan mod to make it silent. With that being said, something like the EP4k would fill all of your needs and requirements with out breaking the bank.
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post #7 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Well a quick look on ebay and it looks like the adcom 5802 would fit my needs. Question is if it would handle subwoofer duty. I pretty much knew I'd be limited to a tank on an amp though. Another reason I'm having trouble going with a ep 4k is because I've had issues with output on the three that I have owned. I know it was due to the yamaha sub out. I don't know why some people can hook a pro amp directly to their receiver and some can't and need a boost of some kind. It's very frustrating.

Dan
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post #8 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so if I get two sa1000s and give each sub it's own amp, is there a way to make it so one is a master and one a slave? I want to make sure each sub is getting equal power since it'll be a dual opposed cabinet.

Dan
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post #9 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 11:57 AM
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Are you sure that amp only puts out 500 watts? That test done here was for an older version of the amp, granted the current version is "rated on a 1/3 duty cycle"... Are you going to use it for music and movies, or continuous test tones?
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post #10 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Literally just music and movies. Maybe I should just say screw it and get an ep4000. Ill have a velodyne sms1 in line for eq, would that help at all with the common preout voltage matching issues that you run into mixing pro and consumer gear? The Sony I have is the STR-V444ES and has two 2.0 volt lfe outputs.

Dan
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post #11 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Well if I go that route I might as well buy a FP14000

Dan
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post #12 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

If a giant, heavy boat anchor is OK - and to meet your requirements of big power and no fan, you're basically limiting yourself to 80lb+ amps in giant cases -look for an old Adcom 5800/5802 or Rotel 1090. Both of those amps do more than 300W/8Ω continuous and can drive basically anything.

A vintage Sunfire is another option. Don't know if they're as reliable, so it's worth asking around.

If you want something smaller and more elegant, a pair of NHT A1 monoblocs would do well. Not quite as powerful, but perfectly adequate for your needs. Outlaw has a cheap knockoff of the A1, M-something but unlike NHT they didn't bother getting their knockoff safety-certified by an NRTL. Who knows what other corners were cut. So I'd stick with the original rather than the cheap knockoff.

All four of these amps will require a preamp voltage of 2V or more to get full output.


LOVIN' THE ANSWER DS!!! Way to go old school! Haven't heard (or even thought) of those names in quite some time. Thanks for the run down memory lane. I still have an old Adcom. Man they were/are beasts!


dbl

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post #13 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

Well a quick look on ebay and it looks like the adcom 5802 would fit my needs. Question is if it would handle subwoofer duty.

Yes. I used an Adcom 5800 as my sub amp for a while. It is overkill for the job, compared to a modern lighter/more efficient amp, but it works just fine. Keep in mind that, as with a pro amp, you'll be giving up modern convenience features such as 12V trigger on/standby with an old boat anchor.

See more on sub amps generally here.

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post #14 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Yes. I used an Adcom 5800 as my sub amp for a while. It is overkill for the job, compared to a modern lighter/more efficient amp, but it works just fine. Keep in mind that, as with a pro amp, you'll be giving up modern convenience features such as 12V trigger on/standby with an old boat anchor.

See more on sub amps generally here.

Nice I like the sounds of that! Ill probably just pick up a 5802 then and use that until I move back out and then use it for mains. I understand what I'll be giving up going to this style of amp, but it'll be worth it to not have my wife complain about the fan.

If I could pick up a used emotiva, how do you think that would fair? I ask because people have had issues with them going into protect so not sure if its not as solid or not as good heat dispensation. Thoughts?

Dan
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post #15 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 06:54 PM
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Personally I like the old Adcoms over Emotiva, hard to beat the heavy metal designs of yesteryear with today's cost conscious designs.

Didn't Nelson Pass design the older Adcoms? I used a GFA555 to drive a sealed Maelsteom-X for a couple of years without any issues, could not go THX reference level but was sufficient.

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post #16 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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What about a sunfire 300x2 ?

300 watts/ch into 8 ohms 600 watts/ch into 4 ohms1200 watts/ch into 2 ohms and 2400 watts/ch into 1 ohms. It has balanced and unbalanced options.

For $700-$800 seems too good to be true. I could get 600 watts going to each sub.

Dan
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post #17 of 23 Old 07-23-2013, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

What about a sunfire 300x2 ?

300 watts/ch into 8 ohms 600 watts/ch into 4 ohms1200 watts/ch into 2 ohms and 2400 watts/ch into 1 ohms. It has balanced and unbalanced options.

For $700-$800 seems too good to be true. I could get 600 watts going to each sub.

Dan

That sounds like a hell of an amp, but, for $700 to $800 dollars you could get a Crown XTI or something similar that has more power and also has DSP., or even a nice plate amp with DSP from the likes of Hypex, or possibly even Power Soft. (correct me if I am wrong).
Anyway, Sunfire builds great amps, and I would not hesitate to use one at all. I just think that for subwoofer amps, you could do better. Keep in mind that just because most pro-amps are loud, you can always switch the stock fan out with an aftermarket fan in less than
10 minutes and completely eliminate that issue.
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post #18 of 23 Old 07-23-2013, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

What about a sunfire 300x2 ?

300 watts/ch into 8 ohms 600 watts/ch into 4 ohms1200 watts/ch into 2 ohms and 2400 watts/ch into 1 ohms. It has balanced and unbalanced options.

For $700-$800 seems too good to be true. I could get 600 watts going to each sub.

IMO that Sunfire is far from being too good to be true unless you believe its specs, which are indeed too good to be true.

No known amplifier doubles its power output when you halve the load impedance without some fudging of the specs. All amps with specs of that nature that have been independently tested failed to perform that way. They may meet specs but the specs understate their power output at higher load impedances. The problem is that amplifier internal losses naturally increase as the load impedance decreases. That's just the laws of physics coming around to bite you.

Any amp built in the middle 1990s can reasonably be expected to have degraded now that it is nearly 20 years old. I have seen amps that old that have apparently not degraded based on tests I ran, but they cost more like $10k new and were vastly overbuilt.

Back in the real world, the amp I would want to buy myself for this application is a Crown Xti 2002. 475 wpc @ 8 ohms and 1600 wpc at 2 ohms. I've had excellent results exploiting its flexible internal DSP. The actual power limit of this device is often the wall socket you plug it into. It can take out a 20 amp fuse driving 2 ohm loads. When you replace its internal 20 amp fuse (it is a standard microwave oven fuse) it is ready for more.

Behringer has some new iNuke amps that may compete with it but I have no experience with them. The early ones are reported to have some bad parts that failed early that it is said have been corrected.

Also, the heat sinks of the Xti 2002 are large enough that the cooling fan is stopped or turning slow enough to be silent in normal use. If you play your speakers loud enough to get the fan turning fast enough to hear in a quiet room, the speakers will drown it out. ;-)
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post #19 of 23 Old 07-23-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I should share that whole plan. Ill be living in this small space for about 3 years while I finish my prerequisites and get my bachelors in nursing. Ill have a storage unit that'll have most of my current furniture. My wife really wants an actual theater and suggested I start buying the parts and keeping them in the storage unit. So I'm trying to buy for the future.

Ill be purchasing 8-18" Dayton's, maybe 16 after I buy everything else.
One or two fp14000 clones since the are the watt/dollar king right now unless I can be convinced otherwise.
Seos design for the front stage and unknown surrounds.

So I don't want to really buy a lesser watt pro amp if ill just be planning on upgrading for my substrate later. I figured I could use the adcom/sunfire for my front stage but maybe that's overkill.

Should I just order a FP14000 and try to hide it somewhere like in a closet or under the bed to hide the noise? Is this amp not the bee's knees anymore? Is there a pro amp that would be a better choice?

What would you all do in my situation.

P.S. the epics will eventually go into tapped horns when I move for bedroom subs.

Thanks
Dan
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post #20 of 23 Old 07-23-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

I guess I should share that whole plan. Ill be living in this small space for about 3 years while I finish my prerequisites and get my bachelors in nursing. Ill have a storage unit that'll have most of my current furniture. My wife really wants an actual theater and suggested I start buying the parts and keeping them in the storage unit. So I'm trying to buy for the future.

Ill be purchasing 8-18" Dayton's, maybe 16 after I buy everything else.
One or two fp14000 clones since the are the watt/dollar king right now unless I can be convinced otherwise.
Seos design for the front stage and unknown surrounds.

So I don't want to really buy a lesser watt pro amp if ill just be planning on upgrading for my substrate later. I figured I could use the adcom/sunfire for my front stage but maybe that's overkill.

Should I just order a FP14000 and try to hide it somewhere like in a closet or under the bed to hide the noise? Is this amp not the bee's knees anymore? Is there a pro amp that would be a better choice?

What would you all do in my situation.

P.S. the epics will eventually go into tapped horns when I move for bedroom subs.

Thanks
Dan

If this is for a future HT then I would not recommend getting the FP14K clone right now. I would wait and see how stable they become or if someone else comes out with something better or more reliable. At this point the clones are still a big gamble. Most people are probably happy with them and have no issues, but there is enough anecdotal evidence that you have a good chance of also getting a problem unit. My unit worked for a while under minimal use for the last year or so, but has just started power cycling on its own. I'm looking to either getting it fixed locally or find a replacement. Behringer has just recently announced their new iNuke NU12000. I'd wait to see how they measure up and get one of those if they pass muster. If they have the power down low into the single digits then I'll be picking up a couple. I'd gladly give up a couple thousand watts to get something with local distributors and a warranty. I have the EPX4000 and with a fan mod it is dead silent. Also of note, the Behringer is reportedly stable at 2 Ohms whereas the clones are only recommended for 2.7 Ohms.

BTW, your wife sounds like a winner.
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post #21 of 23 Old 07-23-2013, 11:02 AM
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I don't have any input with amplication issue, but best of luck to you with the nursing program. My GF is finishing up the program right now, she'll be done next month. If I remember correctly, you're local to me too. If you need any insight on the application process, let me know. It's quite a competitive program to get into. I helped her with the application process.
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post #22 of 23 Old 07-23-2013, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have any input with amplication issue, but best of luck to you with the nursing program. My GF is finishing up the program right now, she'll be done next month. If I remember correctly, you're local to me too. If you need any insight on the application process, let me know. It's quite a competitive program to get into. I helped her with the application process.

Awesome, that's very kind of you. I might take you up on that. I'm in Salem Oregon and yes very competitive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

If this is for a future HT then I would not recommend getting the FP14K clone right now. I would wait and see how stable they become or if someone else comes out with something better or more reliable. At this point the clones are still a big gamble. Most people are probably happy with them and have no issues, but there is enough anecdotal evidence that you have a good chance of also getting a problem unit. My unit worked for a while under minimal use for the last year or so, but has just started power cycling on its own. I'm looking to either getting it fixed locally or find a replacement. Behringer has just recently announced their new iNuke NU12000. I'd wait to see how they measure up and get one of those if they pass muster. If they have the power down low into the single digits then I'll be picking up a couple. I'd gladly give up a couple thousand watts to get something with local distributors and a warranty. I have the EPX4000 and with a fan mod it is dead silent. Also of note, the Behringer is reportedly stable at 2 Ohms whereas the clones are only recommended for 2.7 Ohms.

BTW, your wife sounds like a winner.

Thanks for the info, I knew the fp14000 was a risk but not that much of one. If there will be one released that'll be close that I can buy locally I'd go for it. It'll be a couple of months befor this purchase but I think you solidified it for me. I think I'll just wait to see what's released for high power pro amps and just go with the "boat anchor" for now. I personally love them and know that I'll need a powerful amp for my seos mains, maybe not the adcom powerful, but I like headroom. Plus for that little room it'll get loud enough with each driver getting 450 watts.

Yes my wife is awesome. I'm truly blessed.

Dan
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post #23 of 23 Old 07-24-2013, 09:35 AM
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Awesome, that's very kind of you. I might take you up on that. I'm in Salem Oregon and yes very competitive!
Dan

Salem is not too far away. I'm in the NW Portland / Beaverton area. My GF applied to OHSU and Linfield. She got accepted into the accelerated program at Linfield. OHSU only accepted 37 studends and had 11xx applicants. Linfield accepted 59, and had around 1200 applicants. I graduated from engineering school, and I was honestly amazed at the competition for the medical field. Which I don't quite understand, but I appreciate the people in healthcare, because I don't have the patient to deal with sick/angry people. =D
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