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post #91 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 06:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

"Probably not" what?
It's exactly what I was getting at...the near field monitors are not horn designs- it's clear in all of the pictures.
Of course not. Near fields require that the wave fronts from the drivers fully integrate well before the listening position. That requires that they have very wide dispersion, especially on the vertical plane. Most horns have narrow dispersion on the vertical plane, so the wave front integration distance is too long for them to be employed as near fields. The exception would be short horns with round mouths, which often are referred to as waveguides, though in truth more often than not said waveguides are, in fact, horns.

Where I come from waveguide and horn are pretty much treated as synonyms. AFAIK all horns are waveguides but not all waveguides are horns. Waveguide sounds more professional than "horn".

I first heard the term waveguide used this way by Earl Geddes in the 1980s back when he worked for Ford, if memory serves.
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post #92 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Should I use silicone to seal in the ports?
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post #93 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Where I come from waveguide and horn are pretty much treated as synonyms. AFAIK all horns are waveguides but not all waveguides are horns. Waveguide sounds more professional than "horn".

I first heard the term waveguide used this way by Earl Geddes in the 1980s back when he worked for Ford, if memory serves.
It seems that the definition varies from person to person, company to company, especially as concerns not wanting to use the dreaded 'H' word for purely marketing reasons. IMO if it has gain, it's a horn.

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post #94 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It seems that the definition varies from person to person, company to company, especially as concerns not wanting to use the dreaded 'H' word for purely marketing reasons. IMO if it has gain, it's a horn.

The fact is that even a "waveguide" has gain. Put a CD on a flat baffle and compare it to a Geddes style oblate spheroid or a simple 90deg conical horn. A flat baffle is just a 180deg waveguide. A CD horn doesn't have enough gain or progressively increasing at HF gain to make a compression driver flat, that is true.
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post #95 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The fact is that even a "waveguide" has gain. Put a CD on a flat baffle and compare it to a Geddes style oblate spheroid or a simple 90deg conical horn. A flat baffle is just a 180deg waveguide. A CD horn doesn't have enough gain or progressively increasing at HF gain to make a compression driver flat, that is true.
Don't confuse gain with spatial loading, which is the reason for even a flat baffle having 'waveguide' characteristics.

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post #96 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 02:57 PM
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I have read that it is a good idea to add some sort of mass to the outer side of the waveguide or horn. I have seen people use a thick heavy mass dampened tape. I would imagine that by adding some mass to the waveguide/horn would help keep the waveguide/horn from any type of possible vibrations.

I used rope caulk for my 4Pi' build. Wrapped all the back of the horns with it, mushed it into place and used a bit of duct tape over top to keep it secure.
I didn't ever have an issue with sound quality, in fact, quite the opposite.
The horns / speakers always sounded amazing, I just figured I'd do it while I had the chance.... snake oil? Won't really know unless I do measurements.
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post #97 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 03:15 PM
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I used rope caulk for my 4Pi' build. Wrapped all the back of the horns with it, mushed it into place and used a bit of duct tape over top to keep it secure.
I didn't ever have an issue with sound quality, in fact, quite the opposite.
The horns / speakers always sounded amazing, I just figured I'd do it while I had the chance.... snake oil? Won't really know unless I do measurements.
+1. Well made horns don't need special damping to work better, because they don't vibrate. Just as is the case with different cone/diaphragm materials horns don't inherently have coloration or a signature sound, unless you hit them with a stick. Cheap horns can vibrate, usually not from the internal pressures placed on them by their own drivers, but by the external pressures placed on them by the woofer rear wave output when mounted in the same cab without being isolated.

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post #98 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 05:11 PM
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I'm going to wrap my SEOS-18's because it's relatively easy and cheap. Why not go to the max for sound quality even though it might not make a noticeable difference? Then again it might. No point taking chances.biggrin.gif If the WG was made out of concrete then then it would probably be absurd. I'll have a lot of labor tied up in these speakers so if its an easy tweak, I'll do it.
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post #99 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I put together the Alchemy 8's and they sound completely broken its far away actually painful and the entire woofer sound is off. this is way over my head I don't know how to get these done
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post #100 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 09:51 PM
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Having some bad luck goonstopher. Has someone vetted your cross overs for the Fusion 8s? I wonder if there's an error in that one also.

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post #101 of 126 Old 08-05-2013, 10:46 PM
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Maybe something wrong external to the speakers? What are you powering these with? Is is possible there is some type of auto-eq is set for different speakers? Maybe too much heat applied to the components when putting the crossover together?
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post #102 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Having some bad luck goonstopher. Has someone vetted your cross overs for the Fusion 8s? I wonder if there's an error in that one also.

MTG did but who knows... These are broken
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post #103 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike-ht View Post

Maybe something wrong external to the speakers? What are you powering these with? Is is possible there is some type of auto-eq is set for different speakers? Maybe too much heat applied to the components when putting the crossover together?

There is no EQ on them and my old Behringer b2030p's still sound good since I'm forced to use them.

Too much heat is possible though
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post #104 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 08:50 AM
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Well there's no way you received 5 bad woofers, so I'm guessing a XO problem. I can't think of anything else unless your subjective tastes are such that you find they sound "broken". Could be, but I doubt they sound so different from the Behringers that one would sound great and the other broken. So I'm not sure what to think.

At least we can rule out that it's the Fusion Max. So switching to the Pure might not be the best idea if it'll end up costing you more.

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post #105 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 08:56 AM
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I think we can pretty much rule out the woofers or compression drivers. And the designs got good reviews at the get together a couple months ago. So that brings it down to some issues with building the crossovers. DIY has a learning curve for everyone, but the good thing is that there are always a lot of people willing to help get it done.

MTG-90 will be assembling his crossovers. I'm sending parts to him today.

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post #106 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well there's no way you received 5 bad woofers, so I'm guessing a XO problem. I can't think of anything else unless your subjective tastes are such that you find they sound "broken". Could be, but I doubt they sound so different from the Behringers that one would sound great and the other broken. So I'm not sure what to think.

At least we can rule out that it's the Fusion Max. So switching to the Pure might not be the best idea if it'll end up costing you more.

The max's sound much better then the alchemys. the Alchemys are CLEARLY broken. I am not blaming the speaker... Something isn't right though.

they sound like someone talking in a hallway 100 feet away
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post #107 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 09:29 AM
 
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broken is not the right word to use if it sounds like a hallway.
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post #108 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

The max's sound much better then the alchemys. the Alchemys are CLEARLY broken. I am not blaming the speaker... Something isn't right though.

they sound like someone talking in a hallway 100 feet away

The only time i heard anything like this, it was an electronics or source problem... Too much noise floor audibility. I doubt that though, since you've had efficient speakers in your system before. Paper woofers can be noisy in the upper registers, so a crossover issue is definitely a possibility. You hopefully just have your crossover miswired. The worst case Scenario is blown tweeters.
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post #109 of 126 Old 08-09-2013, 06:43 PM
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I wonder if the horn or CD is really the culprit to people not liking horns. Maybe it is just a bigger woofer playing vocals or higher? Who knows but everyone is different. Has anyone tried the Behringer Truth powered monitors? They are damn good for their price and if you do not want to blast them I bet they would please most.

The issue that started this tread in the first place seems to be lower in frequency - below the cf for the wg/horn.
I have seen others also commenting on similar problems - loud, harsh, annoying sound, somewhere in the midrange frequencies.
(In this particular case I understand there may be issues with the speaker, ie. crossover that causes the speaker to not perform as intended, perhaps we will know when TS reports back.)

So you may be correct in assuming this problem is related to the woofer.
Regardless what is causing it, it will be possible to quantify the problem as something that can be measured and analyzed, and thus, it can also be fixed - for all speaker designs.
I think this can be either a frequency response issue, or time related (ringing/resonance).

I will start a new thread on this.

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post #110 of 126 Old 08-16-2015, 05:50 AM
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bringing up an old thread. after reading some information on horn based distortion, Ive been playing with varying types and levels of stuffing in the horn squawkers and tweeters and can tell you this stuff works so well its like magic.

every single klipsch speaker ive ever heard (I have three sets myself) including the rf7, has this unmistakble grit in the sibilants that I like to call "sand". you cant miss it. with instruments it not that noticeable but with vocals, it can almost drive a person crazy.

It is definitely much more noticeable with their tractrix horns( and I think this is the reason klispch's reputation peaked in the mid 90s and started declining after that - they switched to the tractrix horn design)

i havent bought reticulated foam so I tried foam I had lying around - all sand gone , but too much high frequency attenuation. tweak till its right

then for giggles I tried some extra polyfill i had lying around - I like it better! -its easier to vary the amount to get the sand out but keep as much energy as possible. I just watched a movie with a lot of talking and was adjusting the amounts till i got it right. not too damped and not too bright

my significant other and I watched a movie after i finished tweaking, and I was actually blown away by the quality of the vocals. I already had a big sound before. taking all the sand out of it made it even bigger, and now approaching epic!

I highly recommend trying this if you have any problems with "sand" from your horn squawkers and tweeters
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post #111 of 126 Old 08-16-2015, 06:25 AM
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Were you able to take any before and after measurements? It would be interesting to see what was actually going on.

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post #112 of 126 Old 08-16-2015, 07:00 AM
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Yeah I'd like to see measurements as well. The problem with polyfill is you'll never be able to get the density consistent, so the effect will change at different angles. I do agree with your impression of the new style Klipsch horns....they sound like garbage. The ones I've seen look more like diffraction horns than a pure Tractrix.
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post #113 of 126 Old 08-16-2015, 07:12 AM
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Remember this is a 2 year-old thread Mr. 1201 has responded to. He is not addressing any specific current problem, but speaking in general about tweeters and squawkers. Most SEOS designs don't used a mid-range, so I'm not sure the purpose of his comments.

The Klipch RF-7 he commented about does have a well known high-end resonance sound, but it also has a well-known fix, and it has nothing to do with the horn. The RF-7 problem is taken care of with a resister.

In my view the SEOS waveguide and the older Klipsch horns have very different design and resonance characteristics. The SEOS does NOT need damped. It is inherently MUCH thicker and the horn surface area is much shorter. It just doesn't vibrate like the Klipsch horn.

I damped the horns in my Klipsch CF-4's and a difference could not be heard on a listening test. There was a difference in the knuckle rap test by about a third of an octave, but it made no difference otherwise. The harshness I heard was really well dealt with by adding a relatively small amount of polyfil, and I believe most people here would be able to A/B my CF-4's and tell which sounded better, with or without the polyfil.

The 12" SEOS with DNA-360 sounds EXACTLY like the Klipsch CF-4 horn, I interchanged them in the Klipsch CF-4 and no difference could be heard, with each using the CF-4 cross over. Here is a detailed comparison between the two:
SEOS 12 vs Klipsch horn - I did a bad thing

Photos: The larger Klipsch horn has been damped with 11 oz of pure Silicon seal in clear.
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Last edited by wvu80; 08-16-2015 at 07:19 AM.
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post #114 of 126 Old 08-16-2015, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Were you able to take any before and after measurements? It would be interesting to see what was actually going on.

Gary
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Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post
Yeah I'd like to see measurements as well. The problem with polyfill is you'll never be able to get the density consistent, so the effect will change at different angles. I do agree with your impression of the new style Klipsch horns....they sound like garbage. The ones I've seen look more like diffraction horns than a pure Tractrix.
I just took some measurements with polyfill in place, polyfill removed, and then for grins I took one with no polyfill and took the grill off.

now, you might say - oh, you can use eq to reach the same result- maybe , I will test more on that but Im convinced my particular eq does not do the overall sq any favors so I prefer to leave it out

if you like any more data, please let me know
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post #115 of 126 Old 08-17-2015, 02:39 AM
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Pretty course resolution and gated data would be more telling. The point of the foam isn't so much that it attenuates hf, but it attenuates Higher Order Modes. I'm not quite sure how I feel about HOM's, since we can't measure them AFAIK, but intellectually it makes sense to me. A poorly designed horn will have more HOMs so will benefit more from the foam, but HOMs exist in all horns (if you believe they exist). SEOS is not exempt as IMO it's a really well designed wg so the benefit will not be as great. I'm using 30ppi open cell foam in my waveguides which are similar to the SEOS and there is a slight improvement in sound, but the way I implemented the foam actually narrows the directivity in the top 1.5 octaves so it's not a true apples to apples comparison.

What speaker is that 1201? I measured a Klipsch bookshelf 3-4 years ago and it had pretty poor performance.
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post #116 of 126 Old 08-17-2015, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post
Pretty course resolution and gated data would be more telling. The point of the foam isn't so much that it attenuates hf, but it attenuates Higher Order Modes. I'm not quite sure how I feel about HOM's, since we can't measure them AFAIK, but intellectually it makes sense to me. A poorly designed horn will have more HOMs so will benefit more from the foam, but HOMs exist in all horns (if you believe they exist). SEOS is not exempt as IMO it's a really well designed wg so the benefit will not be as great. I'm using 30ppi open cell foam in my waveguides which are similar to the SEOS and there is a slight improvement in sound, but the way I implemented the foam actually narrows the directivity in the top 1.5 octaves so it's not a true apples to apples comparison.

What speaker is that 1201? I measured a Klipsch bookshelf 3-4 years ago and it had pretty poor performance.

I definitely can tell an improvement in sound that my eq is not able to match but I'm not sure if it's because eq cannot cure hom or if I just don't like my eq. I think it's the former.

This is forte I

How much attenuation do you see from the reticulated foam?
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post #117 of 126 Old 08-17-2015, 06:50 AM
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Hi Nate:
Were you able to find blocks of the reticulated foam? If so where? I can only find relatively thin sheets.
Thanks,
jack
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post #118 of 126 Old 08-17-2015, 07:28 AM
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The poret/Swiss Tropics foam guy is local to me. The thickest he keeps on hand is 4 or 5" thick. He said he could get any size but the shipping cost can be prohibitive as he gets it shipped from Germany and getting a custom size might mean he has to get another pallet iirc. Been a couple years since I talked to him. I've been thinking about getting another thick piece and just stacking them up.
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post #119 of 126 Old 08-17-2015, 07:52 AM
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Thanks, Nate. Found it on the web and bookmarked it!
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post #120 of 126 Old 08-17-2015, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post
Pretty course resolution and gated data would be more telling. The point of the foam isn't so much that it attenuates hf, but it attenuates Higher Order Modes. I'm not quite sure how I feel about HOM's, since we can't measure them AFAIK, but intellectually it makes sense to me. A poorly designed horn will have more HOMs so will benefit more from the foam, but HOMs exist in all horns (if you believe they exist). SEOS is not exempt as IMO it's a really well designed wg so the benefit will not be as great. I'm using 30ppi open cell foam in my waveguides which are similar to the SEOS and there is a slight improvement in sound, but the way I implemented the foam actually narrows the directivity in the top 1.5 octaves so it's not a true apples to apples comparison.

What speaker is that 1201? I measured a Klipsch bookshelf 3-4 years ago and it had pretty poor performance.
+1

if you do the comparison, than ideally the response should be EQ-ed to be equal. For the Klipsch speakers, the harsh sound could also be related to diffraction issues.
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