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post #61 of 89 Old 10-14-2013, 01:35 AM
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if you start with a q=0.7 target and miss by a little, you'll never notice the difference. don't worry about it.
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post #62 of 89 Old 10-14-2013, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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according to my calculations, all the dimensions are approximate:

Using 2 large rectangular shaped braces with 4 times 8x8 inches windows inside of them and 1 inch thickness with 2 inch thickness between the 8x8 windows. while the distance from each window to the sides is one inch.

I need a cubic box of around 22.5 inch per side excluding the double baffle thickness of another 3/4 inch to achieve a Q of 0.7. that will take into account the volume of the drive and bracing. to be honest I might add some minor additional bracing if I can.


is bracing of 1 inch thickness a problem, for example: does a bar of 22 inch x1x1 be of any problem?? I might not use this, but just questioning if this will cause any problem. my thought of rectangular braces are not like this, but they do have 1 inch dimensions in certain areas.

another question: for the large windowed braces, can I use as well a 3/4 inch panels?
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post #63 of 89 Old 10-14-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Effective dimensions without legs will be 57 cm height, 52 cm width, and 57 cm depth. Inclusive of the double baffle. Wood will be 3/4 Italian type of MDF (didn't get the exact name from the carpenter). Construction as per the carpenter will be mainly using glue and "biscuits" these are used to connect the sides in addition to glue.

Bracing will include two large panels of 4 windows within them and additional bracing to connect these from the sides and back.

I think I have lost my calculations for a Q of 0.7 and might add some polyfill.
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post #64 of 89 Old 10-20-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Need Answer please: Is 3/4 inch wood for bracing fine?

Hi Guys, I just had a call with my carpenter, and he is going to make for me the bracing similar to the box sold at partsexpress, the only difference is that he is going to put two horizontal and two vertical wood blocks instead of one by two (so more then the parts express).

But is 3/4 inch wood fine. He is saying that the Italian wood he is using is very good, and that he can take in and out a screw from it several times without ruining the screw hole. he doesn't have 1 inch wood, the other alternative is using 2x3/4 wood for bracing but I felt that this will eat a lot of space inside. is it necessary to use 1.5 inch bracing inside or is 3/4 inch wood plates fine?

please send the answer soon, as he might start on the wood tomorrow.
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post #65 of 89 Old 10-20-2013, 12:23 PM
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1/2 or 3/4" is fine for bracing.

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post #66 of 89 Old 10-21-2013, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mrkazador, 3/4 inch it is.

I was looking at the one that parts express has and they mention that the Subwoofer recess: 1/2" (larger then 1 cm) while I asked that it is made just exactly 1 cm as per the exact dimension from the dayton schematic, should I have asked that the recess be more then 1 cm? will this affect any sound quality or output?
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post #67 of 89 Old 10-21-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Another help question regarding recessing and grills. In correlation to the earlier question. I have discovered that the foam edge of the sub is 1.8 cm above the contour edge. So if I recess only 1 cm, the foam edge will hit the grill cloth that I have bought as the grill is 1.8 cm thick as well. How much can I recess the driver in the double baffle of 3.6 cm, can I recess up to 1.4 cm? Will extra recessing affect SQ? Or 1.3 cm is enough? How much the foam moves from the edge above the 1.8 cm thickness when the woofer hits Xmax?


Sorry for asking too many questions, first real DIY smile.gif
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post #68 of 89 Old 10-21-2013, 11:35 AM
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"How much the foam moves from the edge above the 1.8 cm thickness when the woofer hits Xmax?"

approximately half. e.g.,10mm additional clearance for 20mm xmax.

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post #69 of 89 Old 10-21-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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The Xmax of the RSS 460 is around 13mm, I know some people say that this conservative, but let's consider the specs. It means that I need a clearance of 1.8 + 0.65 so around 2.45 cm. and I have a grill thickness of 1.8 cm so I need to recess 1.65 cm , this will eat the double baffle thickness. What to do? Triple baffle? Recess the 1.65 and loose the double baffle advantage? Or make a wooden grill that is 2.5 cm thick and loose the bought grill? Any best choice?
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post #70 of 89 Old 11-15-2013, 11:19 AM
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Hi,

 Saw this thread Im also in a similar situation. I have a 12x12x12 inch subwoofer box with 8 inch driver frok KEF. Is this safe to check in luggade in flight . I also have 5 small satellites from KEF (eggs). Has any body packed such a home theater system in flight before ? Mine comes to 18 Kgs total

 

thanks

 

HG

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post #71 of 89 Old 11-26-2013, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi renji,

sorry for not replying earlier, I have just seen your post. If you already put them in luggage then it is done. If not, I will tell you, I have many times put subwoofer, amplifiers, etc in luggage (even a panasonic AE4000) projector, and in long flights of more then 18 hours (several stops), and up till now, It was fine with very minor cosmetics happening (not worth mentioning).

the large items cannot go into hand luggage, they have to be checked in. And you have to be diligent in packing.

I get a lot of duct taping, bubble rapping, and additional cartoons, and in my packing of the dayton I got "polycarbonate" sheets (if i recall correctly) these are non breakable plastic sheets (1.8 mm). the subwoofer was already in two boxes inside each other, and I reinforced the boxes with duct tape, and put the polycarboante sheets all around between the first box and the second box, and then I reinforced the whole external box with duct tape and transparent tape. and even put a travel belt around the box and taped it in certain places, and I arranged the taping in a way so that the security at the airport can open the box without damaging the whole taping thing. and they did open it but it arrived safe. I did use a lot of labels on the box inside and outside for my address in case something went wrong, but be carefull not to put them in a very open way, it is better to conceal the address a little.

in an earlier flight, I did get an energy subwoofer eswv10 around 18 kg, and I did use only the box that it came in with a lot of duct tape, additional pieces of cartoon inside the box, and bubble rapping inside. It did arrive safe but it had minor hit in the wood, not noticeable.

i hope this helps you or other people here.
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post #72 of 89 Old 12-12-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Finished project Pictures: Mediocre first impressions

Hi guys. Today my carpenter came with the subwoofer box. It is an acceptable good built (he got some golden screws instead of black, I might get other screws).

After installing the subwoofer, I couldn't handle waiting for calibration or break in period.

I tested the sound at high, It didn't feel something very special comparing to my older energy ESW10 that died lately. I need to work on calibrating the receiver tomorrow through Pioneer MACCAC.

I heard some hissing in the speaker, that is low even when I paused the music, and like some crackling very low (had to put my ear next to it) but didn't like that.

I am posting some pictures here. Will test this in the morning when the kids are at school smile.gif little disappointed now though. I kept the sub running to make it break in more at low volume now.




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post #73 of 89 Old 12-13-2013, 09:38 AM
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That looks good smile.gif

If you can set it up properly it should sound a lot better smile.gif
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post #74 of 89 Old 12-13-2013, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Recommendations needed. Any feedback?

Today I calibrated the system with MACCAC, better impressions then yesterday. I increased subwoofer gain a little after calibration, I like to hear more bass at lower volumes.

The hissing sound is not noticeable.

The only catch is that at some bass scenes, I heard some crackling from the subwoofer. When I press one of corners down, this crackling is diminished, and while listening I found that the subwoofer box moved a little, could it be that the rubber legs are not tight to the marble floor? I can either put a small rubber mat under the 4 rubber feet or small square rubbers under each foot mainly the one I am suspecting that is not coupled well to the floor. Any ideas on how to ameliorate things? Any feedback regarding the enclosure pics?
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post #75 of 89 Old 12-13-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Memx . Didn't see your reply before posting mine. I am still working on few things. I hope I will not need to do any drastic things since the product is finished and any drastic change will cost. I need minor cost effective ameliorations.

Another thing, I just measured the thickness of the wood used, it is 1.6 cm instead of 1.8 that the carpenter has told me it is. Could that be the problem?

I am considering going the drastic way and putting another layer of wood all around the box except for the front baffle,, and reinforcing the bracing. please advise.
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post #76 of 89 Old 12-13-2013, 10:46 AM
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Is the front baffle double-skinned? If not it should be ok, and there is plenty of bracing in the box so I think that will be fine smile.gif

I'm not sure about the crackling sound - if it goes away when you press the box against the floor more solidly then I would look into adding something underneath it, as you suggest, or you could put something heavy on top of it perhaps? 16mm wood is a little thinner than the 18mm (or 25mm) usually used, but it should be ok, just perhaps a little lighter than it would have been.

As you say, a few small tweaks and hopefully you will be enjoying it completely! smile.gif
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post #77 of 89 Old 12-13-2013, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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The front baffle is double thickness of wood with a recess of 1 cm (I think, as I didn't measure it, but the driver went in and was flush with the wood surface).

I just talked to the carpenter, and although he is insisting that it is 1.8cm wood, I measured it and it is 1.6. Anyhow, he is not trying to evade additional work, he said he can add more bracing inside, or maybe he meant that he can add additional wood thicknesses between the bracing that is inside (it was a fast chat). I asked if he can add an additional thickness of wood all over except for the front (because the front will need additional work for cutting), he said, he is willing to do that for almost no additional cost.

But adding an additional thickness of wood will mean more size so that will be against the WAF smile.gif and it will mean more weight and as well redoing the speaker grill. I don't know if I should proceed, I should try the rubber under the feet but I feel impatient; but If I need more weight, it would mean a double thickness of wood since I cant put weight on top of the speaker (it wont look good).

What do you think?

Note: you can see the wood thickness a little from the first picture since the front baffle is squeezed between the 4 sides and the edge is appearing.
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post #78 of 89 Old 12-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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with all that bracing, the wood thickness probably isn't you problem.

sealed subs have rolloff on the lower frequencies, much more so than ported, so you need some sort of eq to bring up the bottom end or it will sound weak.

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post #79 of 89 Old 12-14-2013, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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There are two things that I need to work on:
- the rolloff which is important but a secondary concern for me at this moment. I need to work on it but it can wait.

By eq do you mean an equalizer just for the LFE channel or the whole system. Does a miniDSP that I hear about do the job? moreover, I am using a PC equipped with an excellent sound card that has a full equalizer (auzentech Home theatre with HDMI in and out), the smallest frequency that has a lever is 31 Hz, if I raised that frequency and the one next to it the 63 Hz, will that do the job? how will this affect the front speakers that are selected as LARGE, should I select them as small so that they don't receive a high level of low frequencies, or maybe play with their equalizer through the receiver?

- My main concern is the crackling/ratling. When I have put my whole weight on the speaker box, the crackling did go down to an acceptable extent. But that is too much additional weight needed, I will try to increase friction on the feet when I can to see if this will help. Another question: when I have connected the cable inside the box from the driver to the binding post inside, the cable was kept long enough to reach 50 cm outside the box, I did tie it inside to itself with a scotch tape but it was kept hanging with a large knob inside, could it be rattling inside? could the front baffle be too thin for the driver? the driver went in by squeezing it and was screwed tight. the thickness should be at least 2.2 cm or more after taking the 1 cm recess (I think, I didn't measure it).

waiting for ideas. thanks for the help.

Note: as I mentioned earlier, when I calibrated the system through MACCAC; after the calibration I did raise the subwoofer level higher then what was calibrated to get more bass by increasing he amplifier volume. (I added this info in case it helps in getting your feedback)
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post #80 of 89 Old 12-14-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak_20 View Post

There are two things that I need to work on:
- the rolloff which is important but a secondary concern for me at this moment. I need to work on it but it can wait.

By eq do you mean an equalizer just for the LFE channel or the whole system. Does a miniDSP that I hear about do the job? moreover, I am using a PC equipped with an excellent sound card that has a full equalizer (auzentech Home theatre with HDMI in and out), the smallest frequency that has a lever is 31 Hz, if I raised that frequency and the one next to it the 63 Hz, will that do the job? how will this affect the front speakers that are selected as LARGE, should I select them as small so that they don't receive a high level of low frequencies, or maybe play with their equalizer through the receiver?

- My main concern is the crackling/ratling. When I have put my whole weight on the speaker box, the crackling did go down to an acceptable extent. But that is too much additional weight needed, I will try to increase friction on the feet when I can to see if this will help. Another question: when I have connected the cable inside the box from the driver to the binding post inside, the cable was kept long enough to reach 50 cm outside the box, I did tie it inside to itself with a scotch tape but it was kept hanging with a large knob inside, could it be rattling inside? could the front baffle be too thin for the driver? the driver went in by squeezing it and was screwed tight. the thickness should be at least 2.2 cm or more after taking the 1 cm recess (I think, I didn't measure it).

waiting for ideas. thanks for the help.

Note: as I mentioned earlier, when I calibrated the system through MACCAC; after the calibration I did raise the subwoofer level higher then what was calibrated to get more bass by increasing he amplifier volume. (I added this info in case it helps in getting your feedback)

EQ is for the subwoofer channel only, of course you can EQ your main speakers if you want, but in this context, we are telling you to EQ your subs, not your LCR's. That EQ in your PC is grossly inadequate for this purpose as the frequencies that need boosting are the areas around 20hz, some below, and perhaps, depending on your taste, some above. Get a MiniDsp and their UMIK-1 mic for measurements in REW. That won't cost all that much and will improve things emensely!
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post #81 of 89 Old 12-14-2013, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I did understand the subwoofer channel eq , just wanted to make sure of the details. Thanks. I will try to get the minidsp when I travel to the states or sooner by mail.

But any thoughts regarding the crackling and my options to proceed.
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post #82 of 89 Old 12-14-2013, 07:52 AM
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I'm really not sure about the crackling.

Are the interconnects secured tightly? Is the driver definitely screwed in tightly? Are the exterior wallls definitely not moving and creaking at the joins?
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post #83 of 89 Old 12-14-2013, 10:16 AM
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This has been a very informative thread for me. Thank you all who have given advice here as it has helped me plan out my first build too.

I was wondering about the "crackling." I have never built a sub so take my comments with a grain of salt.

My first thought went to the cabinet: what type of wood was used (would that even matter)? How are the joints secured? What material/paint did you use to finish the enclosure (I noticed it was painted in the inside)? One thought was if too stiff of glue was used... could that be the culprit?

When you place pressure on the top of the box to stop the noise that indicates (to me) that the problem is something is loose or there is too much of a gap somewhere. The "crackling" you are hearing more of a rattling? Can you tell if it's coming from the speaker or the box?

p.
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post #84 of 89 Old 12-15-2013, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Found the problem finally I think. Please Advise.

Hi guys, I was as you know very upset of the crackling/rattling noise, and I think I found the reason.

Yesterday, while the subwoofer was off, and since I suspected the feet, I tried to push it slightly on the marble tiles, I heard the same crackling, so today, I flipped the subwoofer on its side and made it rest on the "spongy" material that came with the driver (the rectangular white material that has a circle hole and that protected the subwoofer cone) in order not to ruin the paint of the box. and then I turned the bass and movie on. no crackling heard! is this good or not?

now the question, is this a definite answer as per your opinion? is it the rubber feet moving on the ground? it seems like so. now the bass seemed a little less when I put the subwoofer on that spongy material but it was clean, no noise from the box that is to complain about even with the transformer 2 initial scene which made a lot of crackling earlier.

I have posted pictures. What should I do with the feet? I have seen in a shop a matt made of rubber like material used to be put under washing machines to illuminate vibrations? can I use that? will it weaken the bass?

or another more elegant method, I am thinking of asking the carpenter to make for me 4 square wooden feet of around 10x10 cm (1 inch thick) and use a rubber material under/with them and he can glue this to the bottom (should I use screws as well?)

waiting for feedback. ( do you think there is a problem in any side of the speaker or just the feet?, I can remove the feet and test on the bottom panel again maybe)


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post #85 of 89 Old 12-15-2013, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by "gold 
I have seen in a shop a matt made of rubber like material used to be put under washing machines to illuminate vibrations? can I use that?
If the sub is dancing cut a piece of this to go beneath it.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=202015909&R=202015909#.UP66YGeYUYc

It won't make the vibrations any more visible, but it might eliminate them. cool.gif
Quote:
bass seemed a little less when I put the subwoofer on that spongy material
It isn't. What you heard was classic placebo effect. You put something under the sub, you expected that it would sound different, so it did.

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post #86 of 89 Old 12-15-2013, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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The sub was not really dancing on the floor, it was pretty tight but not enough. What I mean, is that I think that the surface of the rubber feet coupled with the weight (or not so much enough weight) of the subwoofer made it move very slightly (barely to make the rubber detach from the tile surface and re-attach again) making that noise.

I will see what I can find in my area regarding the pvc or rubber mat.

What I was referring to was a 2 cm thick type of rubber that is usually put under washing machines, similar to what I found on this amazon site http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vibrationa-Rubber-Washing-Machine-60x60cm/dp/B009XU1BHE

and I can either put all of it or they have 10x10 cm pieces of it to put under 4 corners. Of course I will remove the current feet totally since it is thicker then the mat.

or make 4 wooden feet with rubber under them as described above which is more elegant to be honest. I will try to put a mat like the one Bill referred to just to see what will happen, but I'd rather do the wooden feet for looks.

my two questions:

- regarding the placebo effect: I had the idea that the subwoofer should be as coupled to the ground as possible to transmit more low frequencies into the ground (could be a wrong idea that I had) or is that wrong? why subwoofers aren't put in ceilings for example, other then their weight and size. if I hang a subwoofer to the ceiling, will that produce the same bass?

- is there any other scenario then the feet problem? could it be that one of the sides or bottom that is having any problem, and by tilting the subwoofer this went away ( I doubt) but could it be?
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post #87 of 89 Old 12-15-2013, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak_20 View Post


- regarding the placebo effect: I had the idea that the subwoofer should be as coupled to the ground as possible to transmit more low frequencies into the ground (could be a wrong idea that I had) or is that wrong?
It's not just wrong, it's nonsense. But there's no shortage of nonsense passing for reality where sound reproduction is concerned. The selling of nonsense isn't a mere cottage industry, it's big business.
Quote:
- is there any other scenario then the feet problem? could it be that one of the sides or bottom that is having any problem, and by tilting the subwoofer this went away ( I doubt) but could it be?
It seems to me the sub was moving and you heard the feet squeeking against the floor.

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post #88 of 89 Old 12-17-2013, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I have for now tried putting 4 small square pieces 8x8 cm almost that I cut from a car's old rubber mat and put it under the feet of the sub, things worked fine, I can say maybe 95%. the other 5 % is my feeling that the subwoofer should have been heavier if another type of wood had been used or 1.5 inch wood had been used. I am seeking a more elegant solution for later (i.e. instead of those rubber pieces of the car mat)
Should I play with the weight by inserting more wood into the box, or just keep it at this? and enjoy it. smile.gif and begin working on the roll off thing instead.

By the way, the minDSP output is 0.9 volt rms which might not be enough to drive the crown XLS as I think it needs 1.5 V rms to reach the full power, does that mean I need as well an ART box?
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post #89 of 89 Old 01-19-2014, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Time for an equalizer.

I need to get an equalizer for my subwoofer. The options are:
1- dedicated equalizer. (in my country I can get the Behringer FBQ3102 for around 140 USD which is an acceptable price taken that these things are much more expensive then in the states and they might run out of qty. (I might have a problem in placing it in my HT cabinet as it is not big and it is already full)
2- try to get a minidsp balanced. I need to maybe order this either to my country or to the US when I travel there, so the cost to my country might reach something in 165 range depending on how much the box weigh (does anyone know how much the retail box weigh?
3- get an inuke 3000dsp when I travel to the US and in this way I get some more power and an equalizer (only draw back is fan mod, I can do it, but I heard that it is not a bullet proof solution, and that the amp might shutdown or the life might be shortened).

what do you guys recommend? and moreover, is the above solution #1 good enough to do the work?
for the 3rd option: Is the inuke 3000 dsp power in bridge mode similar to one channel of the inuke 6000dsp (for low frequency operations)?

After writing the above, I have seen the Behringer FBQ1000 and the likes on amazon, are these good as well?
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Dayton Audio Rs1202a 1000 Watt Dual 12 Subwoofer System Assembled , Definitive Technology Sc6000 Subwoofer Black , Svs Sb12 Nsd Charcoal Black Vinyl 12 Inch 400 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Behringer Nu1000dsp Inuke Power Amplifier , Behringer Nu3000 Inuke Ultra Lightweight High Density 3000 Watt Power Amplifier
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