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post #1 of 89 Old 08-06-2013, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

once in a while I get the idea of building my own speakers and then I see a good deal on a branded speaker and I jump onto it. But this time I am eager to build a subwoofer.

I currently have an energy ESW-V10 300 rms 1200 peak 10 inch subwoofer in a room that measures approximately 35x12x9. Of course the subwoofer is next to the listening area which is less then that size (12x12x9).

I am currently thinking of a sealed subwoofer using the Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm. I am considering several amps options which are the Basch 500S plate amp of the dayton 1000 rms plate amp, or the behringer NU1000 or NU3000 (with or without dsp).

Of course money is an important factor to choose which amp to get and I would like to hear recommendations please in that regard.

I am going to get the help of a carpenter to build the enclosure, what are the main differences between a down firing sub and a front firing one because a better looking box might be better with a down firing one.

how much sealed should a sub be? what are the problems that I might face. I am mainly afraid of having a noisy sub instead of a good one smile.gif

any amp that is 120 volts/60 hz powered will need a step down transformer from my side since my electricity is 220V 50 Hz. I did use this before on my ESW-V10 and things are working fine. Will I have problems with the above amps?

the smaller the box the better. I am thinking of a foot print of 50 cm x 50 cm, what are the best dimensions of a closed box for the above mentioned subwoofer. the preferred height might be as well 50cm + feet of the box.

Waiting for your advice guys.
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post #2 of 89 Old 08-06-2013, 12:02 PM
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I am also interested in knowing the differences between down/front firing subs.
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post #3 of 89 Old 08-06-2013, 01:09 PM
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What are your goals? Is this for music, home theater, or a mix of both? If you build a sealed subwoofer, it needs to be completely sealed. You do not want air leaks around screws, terminal plate, the speaker gasket, or joints in the box. A well constructed box will be air tight at the joints, and other places can be sealed with duct gasket and duct putty. That size box should be fine for this driver, about 95 liters internal volume I think. You can model this in WinISD Pro.

There is no difference between a down firing and front firing box, as long as the down firing box has enough clearance between the floor and the driver. Some manufacturers may recommend against horizontal mounting, due to excessive sag in the suspension.

The Behringer amps should be available in 220v versions.
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post #4 of 89 Old 08-06-2013, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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The usage is a mix of home theatre and music. But the main usage is home theatre.

I am most probably buying from the US when I visit in September so I don't know if I can get the 220 volts version, I mainly buy from amazon due to the acceptance of international credit cards. If you have other suggestions please tell me (i.e. from where I can get the 220 volts version, can it be get from sellers on amazon for example).

The different amps I suggested have different prices, I would prefer to pay 200 for example for the bash 500s but reading other posts have suggested the behringer, that as well starts with 200 for the inuke 1000 (non dsp), is 500 enough? 1000? etc. I do know that the 3000 model might be best for extra power and less heat possibly if I go with bridged mode since the transistors will be larger then the ones in the smaller model. And will I get away if I stopped the fan in the amplifier as I suspect it might have a non wanted noise?

how much clearance for the box legs should I anticipate? If I opt for an external amp, most of the box joints I believe can be sealed enough, I am worried about the speaker edges. and if I used a plate amp it would be the speaker edges plus amp edges that will need sealing.

will I be able to get less then 20 Hz performance from the combination of behringer and Dayton 18 inch in a sealed sub? When I will have some extra time these few days will try this winISD pro. Am I better with the dsp based version of the amplifier or the normal version. My main receiver is a pioneer elite sc-07 that will send the LFE to the subwoofer amp.
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post #5 of 89 Old 08-07-2013, 12:52 PM
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If you can't find a 220v version, the Behringer amps should work fine with a step-down transformer. The Bash only lists 60hz input, so it may not work. It also has a high pass filter set, although this can be changed substituting different resisters using this chart. The Dayton SPA1000 is switchable for 220v operation, but may also have a fixed high-pass filter, -3dB@18Hz. I could not find it mentioned in the spec sheet, so I am not sure.

Doubling the power, say from 500w to 1000w, will get you less than 3dB of additional output. The driver will hit xmax with 950w at 20Hz, so if you have a more powerful amp it will give you more headroom, but not more output above this. For music only, you could set a higher high-pass filter and give the driver more power above 30Hz.

I don't think you will want to stop the fan in the amplifier, as it does not have sufficient heat sinks for fanless operation. There are instructions for fan swaps to put in quieter fans, but the fan may still be audible during quiet passages depending on the location of the amplifier relative to your listening position. I did see one person who applied VGA heatsinks to the chips, and cut a hole in the top of the case to mount a 120mm fan. This should allow for very quiet operation, but is a pretty extreme modification.

You will want the legs long enough to give more open area than the area of the woofer, about 182cm2. I would think 5cm is enough if on a hard floor, a bit more if on carpet. I would now worry too much about sealing the speaker and plate amp. These are designed to seal with the cabinet, so as long as the surface is smooth and flat it should not be a big issue. You just want to pay attention to the possibility of an air leak when assembling the components.

I don't think you should expect too much below 20hz from a single 18". WinISD shows about 105dB at 20Hz at xmax, which according to the Fletcher-Munson curve is similar in audibility to a 60hz tone at 1kHz. You may find some items in your room vibrating at this level, and room gain may give you a a few dB at this frequency as well. SPL at higher frequencies will be more, unless you use EQ to flatten the response. DSP will give you more flexibility, but you would need a measurement microphone or SPL meter to make much use of it beyond setting a high-pass.
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post #6 of 89 Old 08-07-2013, 01:20 PM
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I got my Rythmik kit in the US and it came with a switch to choose 240v
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post #7 of 89 Old 08-09-2013, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mike-ht for the extensive response and of course the rest of the guys.

I would have gotten the Dayton 1000 because it is switchable to 220 but my problem since I am travelling and getting back the equipment in my baggage, is the weight. The Dayton amp is almost 3 times more weight then the Bash or Behringer.

I did connect my current Energy subwoofer to a transformer and it worked fine. But I cannot generalize to other amps.

The behringer fan might be a show stopper, is it too loud? how loud? I do have a multimedia pc with fans connected to the sound system but usually the sound of its fans is pretty minimal and I can control it through software tools. The Bash 500 has another problem is that its components are not housed in an enclosure, so I might need to make one for it. or make a second layer of wood in the back to protect it from direct sound pressure from the subwoofer driver.

So these are the questions that are roaming my mind, The main question as well would be, how much difference would this new sub compare to my current vented ESW-V10?! which is an acceptable performer for the listening area. i.e. it might relate to of course size of speakers (10 inch vs 18 inch), amp power, and as well vented vs sealed. The other question would be, is this sealed 18 inch with 500/1000 watts power better then for example the Kilpsch RW12? It will cost me around 250(speaker) + 250 (amp) + 135 (extra charge for baggage) and wood work/carpenter (150)=so around 800 compared to around 500/550 for the Klipsch.depending on the price when I make the deal and additional baggage cost.

The SPLs that you mentioned seem fine by me.
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post #8 of 89 Old 08-11-2013, 05:08 AM
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LoL. An 18" Dayton HO18 or an 18" Stereo Integrity 18D will stomp a mud-hole in that Klipsch RW12 or any other Klipsch sub!
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post #9 of 89 Old 08-12-2013, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Taking my room size, would I be better with a smaller sub? Like 15 inch or 12 Dayton, would 500 watts be enough or am I better with 1000 watts?

In the non DIY world, would a definitive tech sc6000 or SVS SB-12 NSD do the job taken the room size and listening area?
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post #10 of 89 Old 08-12-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak_20 View Post

Taking my room size, would I be better with a smaller sub? Like 15 inch or 12 Dayton, would 500 watts be enough or am I better with 1000 watts?

In the non DIY world, would a definitive tech sc6000 or SVS SB-12 NSD do the job taken the room size and listening area?

There is no advantage in running a smaller subwoofer in any sized room... Go as big as you can.
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post #11 of 89 Old 08-12-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems strange why parts express list the Dayton under car subwoofers, does this affect its usage in HT?

My other dilemma is the amp, I would not mind the behringer, it has many advantages, weight, power, DSP even for the 1000 watt model, but it has a pro look which will not fit much next to my HT receiver look, but more problematic is the fan? How loud is it in a sitting room, next to the listening area?

The Dayton 1000 seems appealing, but it has a considerably high weight for my baggage? I wonder if I can pass it in my hand luggage? Any idea?

The bash 500 seems to have good weight but was not recommended here due to 60 hz frequency although my energy bash amp is put on 50hz and a step down transformer, will they react the same?

Am I better with a class D amp from Yung 500 watts?

Difficult to choose! I was wondering if I can use my receiver second room output to power the sub as well? As a temp solution!
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post #12 of 89 Old 08-12-2013, 05:30 PM
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Being listed under car subwoofers doesn't mean anything, it is also listed under home subwoofers. If you want to check about the bash amp on 50hz power, you could send oaudio an email. The Yung 500w plate amp with no boost should work as well, but it may have a high-pass filter at 30hz. There is a discussion about this, and possible resistor values to set a lower high-pass here. It looks like they are surface mount resistors.

The stock fan on the Behringer is loud. After doing a fan mod, it is fairly quiet, similar to a quiet pc or loud laptop. It is unfortunate how ugly it is, and that the rack mount ears are not removable.
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post #13 of 89 Old 08-13-2013, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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one disadvantage of the Yung or Bash is that they dont have a cabinet for the electronics, so these will be exposed to the woofer pressure, any thoughts in that line?

As for the behringer which seems a more refined option specs wise, what type of mod for the fan that we are talking about? a new different fan or a resistor in series with the fan?

after putting the question above, I have seen a youtube movie on the net swapping the stock fan with this ADDA AD0812XX-D71 FAN, so somehow the question was answered. I dunno if putting a resistor in series would have solved this as well. Another type of mod would be to put a larger fan on top by putting a larger hole for the fan on top of the receiver thus getting rid of the tunnerl type plastic enclosure they have inside. so having a fan blowing from top down directly on the transistors. ANyhow, the video showed me the inside of the amp and I am more convinced of this amp quality (layout wise, dont know the quality of the components) in comparison to the Yung and Bash, while Dayton had a better layout and finishing as it appeared from the pics over the internet. I feel the Behringer Inuke 1000 with dsp might be a go, and i will use a step down transfomer, any objections on that?!
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post #14 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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After somehow being convinced of the Behringer 1000 dsp.

I got back to the driver and enclosure.
going with the 18 inch will put a burden on me because of baggage payment as it will take another bag and will cost me between additional baggage, and hotel charges to receive the item around 160 USD.

I want to try smaller drivers but dont know what to choose, Using my current energy 300 watts (1200 dynamic 23 Hz bottom frequency as per specs) seems pleasant and sometimes due to WAF and kids sleeping I do not operate at higher volumes.

I do feel I might be missing something so that is why i am here to try the DIY for a larger more powerfull sub, but operating at low volumes might not be bad for me while getting a good ample low frequency response preferrably up to the 20 Hz, less would be of course desirable but I am planning for a sealed sub because I want to evade problems with ported subs since this is my first DIY.

I have seen that Dayton have other subwoofers in the 12 inch and 15 inch range with different characteristics where the differences other then power and frequency response are not clear to me. If I can fit a 15 inch tilted in my hand luggage I would do that, otherwise I might need to go with a 12 inch, but which one? or which 15 inch as well?

There are DVC types, ultimax, titanic MK4, HO, HF, would anyone explain what would be good options for me taking the above? I might be able to have around 3 to 6 feet cube box, i.e. somethind in the 55cm per side box, unless someone in the house kills me smile.gif

would it be reasonable to start with one 12inch and then if needed, at a later time get a second one, but then I need the smaller enclosure so near the 3ft3 or less if possible. but will be operating only one behringer 1000 dsp for both.
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post #15 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 04:55 AM
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I would still recommend the Dayton HO18 as the HO15 would cost roughly the same, shipping wise. The performance difference between the 12" and 18" drivers is pretty big.

With your current Energy sub, you have no idea what good bass sounds like. Go with the Dayton HO18 and be done with it! If that is absolutely not possible, then the Dayton Utillimax-15 or Titanic-15 would be the next best thing.
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post #16 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking of the 15 inch or 12 inch since I was thinking I might be able to fit one in my hand luggage and save the 160 USD. the 15 HO might fit tilted in the hand luggage while the others maybe not. the ultimax and titanic 15 have a lower frequency response(15 and 18) then the 18inch HO (20 Hz) , how come? does that mean they can generate lower frequencies? even in a sealed enclosure, the dayton 18 HO will perfrom way better then my (at it seems) pittifull energy sub? I of course not mean sound power wise, but mainly low frequency response?

another question would be, in addition to the above, would I be able to connect my energy at the speaker levels to both my front speakers to augment their bass performance? it does have left and right speaker level inputs and are as well used as outputs so basically just as connecting the signal.
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post #17 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 05:58 AM
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Lugging an 18" in hand luggage for international travel? You're a lot more dedicated to saving money than I am!

Please do take care to protect the speaker during travel. The last thing you'll want is to get home, unzip your bag and find a big dent in your new speaker.

FWIW, I just got a new inuke3000dsp off of Ebay for $320. It would have more than enough power for any setup you eventually come up with.

-Suntan
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post #18 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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i just got a house loan, 2 years ago so u can expect why i want to save smile.gif but i was not aiming to fit the 18 inch in the hand luggage, that is impossible. I was saying that I was thinking of fitting the 15 inch HO or a 12 inch, but as you said, it might be overdoing it. and to be honest, an 18 inch fills the heart and eyes smile.gif

On the other hand, if i bit the bullet and paid the 160 USD, as you said I am afraid of the baggage handling. Do these woofers come well packaged? I was thinking I might need to buy an additional bag in the US to put the box of the subwoofer inside of it to have additional protection especially if the TSA decided most proabbly to open the box.
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post #19 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 11:00 AM
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Wouldn't a sub be far too large for hand luggage? How would it fit in the overhead lockers??
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post #20 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 11:28 AM
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The Dayton Ulitimax 15" comes well packaged, with a double box and thick cardboard end caps with cut-outs for the surround and magnet. I would expect all the normal drivers to be shipped in similar packaging, while closeout drivers may not be packed as well. The box is about 20"x20"x12" and marked 508x508x302mm 15.9kgs. If possible I would try to use the original packaging, although this is too large for a carry-on, it would not be over-size or weight for a checked bag. Is the $160 what it costs for an additional checked bag? I would be concerned about carrying the bare driver in a carry-on bag.

I agree with Marty that if you are only going to have one subwoofer, go with an 18". Another option would be a dual opposed 12", like this http://www.avsforum.com/t/1413125/dual-opposed-infinity-reference-1262w. Two 12s should give output between a single 15" and a single 18", and might be easier to carry on the plane.
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post #21 of 89 Old 08-19-2013, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Not any sub can fit into hand luggage, I have seen the subs on YouTube and I believe that in hand luggage maybe just one 12 inch can fit, not two; although the idea of the 2 x12 inches was nice but I think I will have to take a decision regarding the budget. I have even thought of a ported 12 inch but the most attracting for me is what you are recommending I.e the 18 inch but I was surprised why the frequency response of the 15 inches ultimate and titanic were better then the 18 inch HO. Do they produce lower frequencies? Is the 18 inch capable of musical reproduction? I will use mainly for HT but might listen to music. Will it be too much for my front modest speakers the take towers formed of 2 x4.5 inches woofers and 2x4.5inches mid ranges. I was thinking that if I do go for the 18 inch, I can hook the energy as 120 hz and below woofer for the front speakers, does that work? Another thing, what should I expect from the 18 inch sub in a sealed enclosure as I have no reference. Will it perform as well in a good way at low or medium volumes?

160 usd = 100 for extra bag international trip + 35 internal flight + 25 hotel charges for receiving the subwoofer and holding it for me.
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post #22 of 89 Old 08-21-2013, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I am still trying to figure out the answers for my former questions. Hope someone can give me some hints in that regard.

My main interest is lower frequency response and when looking at pure specs, the ultimax series seem better then the HO or HF or MK, for exmample the ultimax 12 and 15 have lower frequency response then the 18 inch HO.

And moreover, it seems that if I want lower frequencies, I have to go to ported rather then sealed. So accodring to parts express box sizes and f3 frequencies, it seems that the 12 inch frequency response is somehow pretty good and similar to the 15 inch, and lower then the 18 inch HO. most probably SPLs will be higher with the larger drivers, but the question is, if I built an ultimax 12 inch ported sub, what would be the difference to the sealed 18 inch HO or ported/seasled 15 inch? sorry for asking many questions, first DIY smile.gif
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post #23 of 89 Old 08-21-2013, 09:41 AM
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You have that backwards. Sealed will go lower than ported, but will it take more of them and more power to do so. F3 is not the only thing you need to look at when determining how low a sub will play. You really need to download WinISD and learn how to use it as it will tell you which sub will perform the way you want given your requirements. Let's say a 12" sub has an F3 at 15Hz, but maxes out at 90dBs.. Now take an 18" sub with an F3 of 20Hz, but can hit 130dBs. Even though the F3 point of the 18" is higher than that of the 12" sub the 18" will still play lower than the 12" sub.
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post #24 of 89 Old 08-21-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I have downloaded WinISD, I "played" a little with it, I will need more time to check the details, but my initial thoughts are that for the same driver, a ported enclosure can be tuned to reach lower frequencies then a sealed one for the same power. I might be wrong but these are my initial thoughts.
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post #25 of 89 Old 08-21-2013, 08:36 PM
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Comparing two boxes with the same driver, ported will play louder at the tuning frequency, sealed will play louder at some point below the tuning frequency. If you have the space for a large low tuned box, and are not interested in output below the tuning point, this will give you more output at your target low end frequency. Make sure you pay attention to cone excursion and port velocity. The port(s) can be very large, and are not taken into account in the box size in WinISD. The ported box will also need a high-pass filter, which can have an effect on the output at the tuning frequency.
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post #26 of 89 Old 08-21-2013, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike, duc, and others, thanks for the valuable input, I am learning new things, and confirming other knowledge in my mind.

Getting the inuke 1000dsp might be able to give me the ability of the high pass filter, I think. Getting a 12 inch ultimax with a ported larger box might save me some money, but on the expense of the disadvantages of ported boxes. I can do a slotted box since already I will hire a carpenter, and then other problems of craftsmanship might appear smile.gif

If i decided to invest in the larger drives in a sealed box, where things seem more "pure", no port problems, but needs more power. Supposidly clearer bass. Is the Ultimax 15 inch a "better perfomer" for my situation then the 18 inch HO in a sealed box in terms of frequency reproduction/response? or is the 18 inch an overall better choice?

will the 15 inch blend in better with my modest yet acceptable front speakers? I do use HT more then music, but I still need to listen comfortably to nice music from time to time, and enjoy music in movies as we all do I think. I enjoy a lot tones coming from string based equipment like bass, guitars, and similar oriental counter parts, which I know contain low tones that will feel better with the right sub. saxophones I likes as well.
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post #27 of 89 Old 08-22-2013, 05:32 AM
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All a sub does is move air. If you have the choice of a 15 or 18, an 18 will move more air per given sweep (from rest to max excursion) than a 15 because it has a larger cone. You can therefore get a larger output for a given input, generally speaking, with an 18 than a 15.

However... That assumes you are running them at max output. If you have calibrated your system to Reference level, the 18" sub will have to work less hard than a 15" sub to put out a given volume of sound because it can move more air for a given sweep - it will therefore sound cleaner for a given output volume because it will be less stressed.

Larger subs do not necessarily equal slower subs - that is a myth.


If it was me, I'd go as large as possible. No-one ever said "I wish I'd bought less sub", and you can always turn an 18 down easier than you can turn a 15 up.
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post #28 of 89 Old 08-23-2013, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes MemX, I do usually calibrate my system using the pioneer MCCAAC, so maybe this is what you call the reference level if I am not mistaking. I do not have much opportunities to listen at high SPLs although sometimes I do. I never tried a good somehow powerfull sealed sub like the dayton 18 HO; I am used mainly to my 10 inch energy which produces to my taste a feeling of High SPLs at certain frequencies that I would not need higher SPLs. I do feel the need for lower frequency presence hopefully wihout a "booming" sound. regarding what you said for larger subs do not necessarely equal slower subs. do you know if the dayton 18 HO an acceptably responsive sub in terms of speed and music reproduction?
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post #29 of 89 Old 08-23-2013, 05:18 AM
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Does the Pioneer MCCAAC flatten the Frequency Response across the range? If so, it should mean the sub is not booming.

I am sure that a sealed 18" Dayton setup with the necessary amplifier will be tight and controlled but also give plenty of deep bass smile.gif
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post #30 of 89 Old 08-23-2013, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I am not sure what it does exactly, I think I have seen once, that each channel has its own equalizer settings after I perform the calbration. It is a good receiver, it is the pioneer elite sc-07. I use the full calbiration, phase control, etc...

But I do not change anything later, I might change the rear speakers to small and center usually. strangly enough, the subwoofer gets a -8db or the like in one of the settings, other channels might get a -3 etc... but I did not dwell into all of this.

Sometimes when i am watching at night, I get a good feeling of bass, some of my friensd, told me to just be content of my current subwoofer and that it is good enough. most of the seeting area is between 1 to 3 meters from it.

As you said, when and if I go to the DIY of this dayton, I feel I am putting some high expectations of a good jump in all aspects from my current subwoofer, although I do feel the current subwoofer is "nice" and "seems" a good bargain and quality for what I have paid for it. the driver inside of it doesnt seem cheap! smile.gif

the current plan is 18 inch dayton HO, 52cm cube +5 cm feet, down firing, sealed, braced. Behringer inuke 1000dsp with a different fan, i hope i dont get shut down problems. also I will use 50HZ step down transformer in my region for the behringer, i sent this question for the support at behringer they said that they cannot recommend a step down transformer, but that is understandable, no company will take this risk of telling people to make their amps work with different specs. It should work I think. when I decide on the exact parts, I might put them here to make sure I am not buying something that is not right. does anyone advise that instead of using the energy sub in another room to put it with the front speakers and let is work as low frequency woofer for the fron speakers like something between 80 to 120 Hz? or just use it in my other room and rely on the new sub?
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