Creative Sound Solutions Planar 2 tweeter - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 08-06-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Hey,

I mentioned this speaker in another thread and Alf asked about it. And I probably should share my insight into this fantastic tweeter.

I have a pair of Eminence delta 10b in test cabs already, so figured I give them a whirl.

speakerbeingmeasured_zps96855790.jpg

I tried it horizontally to see if the very narrow dispersion would sound good.

Here's the raw driver measurements, except I forgot to turn on my mic cal, so the top comes down about 5db at 10khz.

rawmeasurements_zpsd48d5050.png

Then I listened. They sounded terrible. Like head in a vise. Image was never there. So I was gonna try an 8" woofer with the tweeter vertical, but instead I tried with the 10".

I flipped the tweeter vertically and they sounded great. Really great. Tweaked the XO and they now sound awesome. Very crisp and snappy. Dynamic. Very enjoyable to listen to.

Here's the on axis and reverse null.

onaxisandrevnull_zps358ba903.png

Here's the off axis 0, 30, and 60.

03060_zpsa6f3e14a.png


Sorry not much detail. I wasn't planning on really getting into it. If any one has questions about the tweeter I can help. If you want the design I can post the XO details. It's about 95db/2.83V/m @ 16ohms. Gets down to about 80hz F3. 12" wide. 24" tall.

I'll try and get a picture with the tweeter in it's new baffle placed vertically.
tuxedocivic is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 08-06-2013, 04:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 5,247
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 479
Believe it or not, I have a couple SEOS waveguides made for planar tweeters. What size is that actual opening going into the waveguide.
Erich H is online now  
post #3 of 28 Old 08-06-2013, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Ill have to find out. CSS offers this tweeter without their waveguide I believe.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #4 of 28 Old 08-07-2013, 05:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 146
I would be interested in the crossover design, and cabinet specs. Which woofer model did you use and where can this CSS tweeter be purchased and at what cost?
Martycool007 is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 08-07-2013, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
I used the eminence delta 10b in 25L tuned to 50hz.

Tweeter is from www.creativesound.ca and I think you can get it from miniscus also. It's about $230 each. Not exactly a cheap tweeter, its in a different class. And you can hear it.

Ill post the XO details eventually. Got a zillion things going on. I have to write it up.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #6 of 28 Old 08-07-2013, 08:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Genelec Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Waverley, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Very interested in this tweeter as well. Seems like an affordable alternative to the Beyma TPL 150 at about half the price.
Genelec Man is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 08-07-2013, 02:50 PM
a|F
Member
 
a|F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Tux, thanks for following up with this thread. I believe you mentioned that the 10b would probably not be someone's first choice to combine with this ribbon. Is a smaller woofer preferable then? And to maintain high efficiency, add a 2nd woofer? How much would that complicate the response?

I realize this is a pretty fundamental question. Point me to a good book or site and I'll start reading.
a|F is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 08-07-2013, 03:26 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Believe it or not, I have a couple SEOS waveguides made for planar tweeters. What size is that actual opening going into the waveguide.

I have been thinking about those. smile.gif

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com
Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/ 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is online now  
post #9 of 28 Old 08-07-2013, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
alf. The 10" is fine actually, although two 8"ers would make a good match as well. All I meant by that comment was it's an $80 woofer that's 16ohms, matched to a $220 tweeter. I'd personally match it to a pair of very nice B&C 8" or a single 10". If I was keeping these that's what I'd do. Wish I could keep them, but I can't spend $450 on tweeters right now. These are on loan. If someone wanted to build this design, there's no reason why the woofer is a bad choice though. I did this more to see what the tweeter could do. Turns out it can do very well biggrin.gif
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #10 of 28 Old 08-08-2013, 04:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Tux, I may very well do this build with the CSS Planar 2 paired with a pair of 8" or 10" woofers that are of equal value with regards to price versus performance. That is an expensive tweeter, and there are other nice tweeters in that price range. So in your opinion, (Tux or anyone else), how does this CSS compare to something from the likes of RAAL, Fountek or ScanSpeak?

Which pair of 8" or 10" woofers would you recommend? What about a dedicated mid-range in a 3-way configuration?
Martycool007 is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 08-08-2013, 05:18 AM
Senior Member
 
Genelec Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Waverley, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Alcon Audio has a nice 3 way using a ribbon. Looks like an 18Sounds 8 " midbass.

http://www.alconsaudio.com/site/products/crms.html
Genelec Man is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 08-08-2013, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
This doesn't compare to RAAL or scan speak because it would kick them in the balls and take their lunch money. The RAALs can't cross nearly as low. The scans don't have nearly the sensitivity. This has both.

That said, the competition I'm sure does well in their intended purpose. It's just that this has more capability IMO. The best comparison I can think of is the Beyma TPL-150 which is probably even more capable than the CSS Planar 2, but also more expensive.

Normally I don't use $200+ drivers, but I've always been attracted to this driver because it does have value, despite its high cost. The value is there if you're willing to shell out for it.

A good woofer match would be a pair of 8" B&C woofers maybe. In an MTM. Would look pretty awesome. Pretty tall and narrow though, some people like that.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #13 of 28 Old 08-08-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Oh and ya, 3 way is a good idea. That's what I'm doing crossing to multi subs at 90hz. I'd say pick a woofer that's good down to 60hz and up to 2khz. Cross at 80-100 and 1000-1500. Pretty wicked setup done that way.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #14 of 28 Old 09-28-2013, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrapladm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,602
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Thanks for this write up Tux. I was looking at building a dual 8 MTM and forgot all about this thread. Still trying to decide on what to go with for the highs but threads like these help. Have some QSC 152i WG's and JBL 8" square and 6" square WG's also I might use. I had the Beyma TPL-150's but had to sell them for other reasons. I will be more than likely going with a dual pair of 18 Sound 8NMB420 woofers for now. 18 Sound I have been very happy with so far and I can get them for a pretty good deal compared to others. There is always the 360 cd also.

Will probably go with a active crossover also. Was thinking about the MiniDSP plate amp with 140watts x2 but thought this might not be enough. There 2 channel bigger amps would probably be better but not going to happen with that type of money. Not a big fan of power amps lately and would someday like to try plate amps again.
chrapladm is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 09-28-2013, 01:17 PM
a|F
Member
 
a|F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Which 8" should be considered for MTM?
a|F is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 09-28-2013, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Chrapladm, sounds like an awesome project. One nice thing about the Planar 2 is that its fairly deep, so lots of horn loading for the width. Good luck with what ever you do.

Alf, any 8" that can reach up to 2khz I would think would make a good choice. High effeciency to match. XO around 1200hz or so... The 18 sounds or B&C options look great.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #17 of 28 Old 09-28-2013, 06:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 146
How about duel AE TD8's in a mid-tweeter-mid design?

I am also interested in how a TD6 or Seas Excell 7" mid with a TD12 for the low end in a premium DIY 3-way. Would that be possible? I know that the Seas Excell mid is not nearly as sensitive as the CSS tweeter and AE TD12 woofer, but with an active crossover, that might be a moot point.
Martycool007 is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 09-28-2013, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Both likely great ways to build a speaker. If still pick something more sensitive even with active, but two of those seas would likely be getting up there. You wouldn't need something that makes good bass though.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #19 of 28 Old 09-29-2013, 08:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Face2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 661
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Chrapladm, sounds like an awesome project. One nice thing about the Planar 2 is that its fairly deep, so lots of horn loading for the width. Good luck with what ever you do.

Alf, any 8" that can reach up to 2khz I would think would make a good choice. High effeciency to match. XO around 1200hz or so... The 18 sounds or B&C options look great.
The SEAS W22NY has no problems up to 6K, but isn't exactly cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

How about duel AE TD8's in a mid-tweeter-mid design?

I am also interested in how a TD6 or Seas Excell 7" mid with a TD12 for the low end in a premium DIY 3-way. Would that be possible? I know that the Seas Excell mid is not nearly as sensitive as the CSS tweeter and AE TD12 woofer, but with an active crossover, that might be a moot point.
There is no AE TD-8.

Mike
Face2 is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 09-30-2013, 06:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 146
That Seas W22NY is a damn nice driver! I would bet a pair of the W22's in a medium sized enclosure with the CSS Planar-2 would be a wonderful, yet expensive, speaker, but I think that instead of using two of the W22'a you could use one AE TD10 and get the same or better performance.

Tux- which B&C 8" driver were you referring to? What about a Kapoa Lite 2512, or a Kappa Lite 2515? How would those work with the Plannar-2 in a TMM configuration?
Martycool007 is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 09-30-2013, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Maybe the B&C 8PE21 if you're using a 12" woofer in a 3-way. Or the PS21 if not. Depends on your goals.

Do you mean deltalite? A 12 or 15" woofer might be tricky getting a directivity match. 15 for sure a problem. 12 might be doable, but it's a roll of the dice.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #22 of 28 Old 10-01-2013, 05:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Tux, yes, I was referring to the Delta Lite 12" or 15".

With regards to getting the directivity to match....from what I gather, the larger the driver the harder it is to get the directivity to match, right?
Martycool007 is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 10-01-2013, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Ya, the CSS Planar 2 starts to lose directivity around 1300hz or so. This is a bit high for a 12". Not bad, it probably can be done quite well, but would force you into a very specific XO point. So you'd have less flexibility. I wouldn't try a 15".
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #24 of 28 Old 10-01-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Here they are in their final layout being shown off at a DIY event here on he island.

tuxedocivic is online now  
post #25 of 28 Old 10-02-2013, 05:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,466
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Ya, the CSS Planar 2 starts to lose directivity around 1300hz or so. This is a bit high for a 12". Not bad, it probably can be done quite well, but would force you into a very specific XO point. So you'd have less flexibility. I wouldn't try a 15".

So what is the optimal crossover frequency for the CSS Planar-2? Would something like a Seas W15LY or a cheaper version of the 7" Scan Speak 18W8434G-00 work well with the Planar-2?

I am just curios. Watching & asking questions on different design and build threads is helping me get a better handle on this kind of stuff. One day I hope to be able to design and build my own unique speaker design!
Martycool007 is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 10-02-2013, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Those smaller woofers will work, but the planar 2 is more capable than that.

I'd say a sweet spot XO point is low 1000s. Around 1.2khz.
tuxedocivic is online now  
post #27 of 28 Old 10-12-2013, 05:46 AM
Senior Member
 
MX48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Metter
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I just built a pair of speakers with the Planar 2 and really love them. I had been using CD's and I really feel this is a step up for me. I of course wanted to go with the TPL150H but they are just cost prohibitive.

I am actively crossing at 1100hz with MiniDSP. Woofers are 2 Deltalite 2512's in WTW arrangement. I wanted to go with the TD12m's but long lead times and cost keeps from using them.

I don't have the knowledge and experience of you crossover builders and wish there was someone in the SE Georgia area that could come over and listen and see if there is room for improvement in them. Unfortunately I know of no one nearby.

Tux, do you think I should cross at 1300hz.?

I am going to post in the SEOS/DIYSG thread and see if Eric has ever thought about working on a ribbon tweeter.

And of course thanks to all the experts here for their help.

Moto
MX48 is online now  
post #28 of 28 Old 10-12-2013, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,520
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Hey Moto, glad to hear you're getting good results as well smile.gif 2x12 is a lot if output so 1300hz may be worth a try, but I'd keep it low if possible. If using a minidsp, use a protection cap!
tuxedocivic is online now  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off