BEYMA TPL-150H - PLEATED HORN TWEETER - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 08-07-2013, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Anybody heard this driver. I am curious about it, paired with an AE TD12M. Vapor Audio mates it with an AE TM10M, crossed over at 1,050hz.

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post #2 of 56 Old 08-07-2013, 07:31 PM
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The TPL-150 looks like a really nice driver. I noticed you were in my CSS planar thread. They're very similar. Speaking from experience with that tweeter, it would mate to the AE 12 nicely I believe, although probably better suited to a 10". The Beyma might have more nuts down around 1khz. Depends. I think it has slightly more Sd and a bigger horn. A lot more expensive though.
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post #3 of 56 Old 08-07-2013, 08:40 PM
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The TPL150H has always intrigued me; I have read nothing but good things about it which makes me want to try one. About the only con is the vertical dispersion which narrows quickly after about 8K or so.

Here's a post with a compilation of builds and reviews using the TPL150: http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1141

I think I saw a build in there with a TD15M.
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post #4 of 56 Old 08-07-2013, 09:42 PM
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i use tpl150h with td12m very happy with them i use them as outdoor speakers for my pool area , building it with a 15'' is just dumb it needs to be crossed at around 1300 a 15'' cant do 1300hz .
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post #5 of 56 Old 08-07-2013, 10:20 PM
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The TD-15M can easily play past 1300hz, but which size driver would have the best directivity match?

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post #6 of 56 Old 08-08-2013, 11:28 AM
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You use this tweeter for pool speakers!!! What do you use in your HT biggrin.gif
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post #7 of 56 Old 08-08-2013, 11:34 AM
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BEF-NO used them in this Home Theater build along with the Beyma 15P80Nd

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416004/bef-from-norway-diy-uncompromising-theater

Looks like good stuff.

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post #8 of 56 Old 08-08-2013, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

You use this tweeter for pool speakers!!! What do you use in your HT biggrin.gif


seos 24s with bms 4594 2x td15m / 2xtd18h per channel 30-20khz @ 102db / 1w. my backyard is 2.5 acre so i needed big speakers for it.
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post #9 of 56 Old 08-08-2013, 06:30 PM
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Oh ya I remember now. Craziness man. Not many guys can top that.
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post #10 of 56 Old 08-08-2013, 07:27 PM
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We use them with TD12M at around 1,400hz/48dB/oct.

Greg
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post #11 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 12:54 AM
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I used it with 15" AE TD15M with a passive 1.2k XO, very nice. Moved on about a year ago from that setup but seem to have come full circle as I''ve just bought another TPL-150H to use in an OB setup above a 12" Beyma Liberty-8, XO to be 1.4k (these being where its directivity match the 15 and 12" mid/bass drivers)

I've also just acquired some Mundorf AMT17D2.1 dipole tweeters to run above the TPL as I was never happy with the lack of extension of the TPL, and more specifically its vertical beaming. No one else really seems to feel the need to augment them on top though.
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post #12 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 06:10 AM
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I just looked up Vapor Audio and they list their TPL-150H/TD10M speakers at $6k for a pair (at least I hope it is a pair). Wow, that is some healthy markup. Even if they paid full retail for the drivers they would only be in for about $900. They must have some pretty amazing pixie dust machines sprinkling around the clock.

Yep, AMT technology is quite nice. It bridges the gap between ribbons like Raals and high power high dynamics compression drivers. The biggest downside is the driver height which causes significant beaming at high frequencies. Oh and the cost.
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post #13 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I just looked up Vapor Audio and they list their TPL-150H/TD10M speakers at $6k for a pair (at least I hope it is a pair). Wow, that is some healthy markup. Even if they paid full retail for the drivers they would only be in for about $900. They must have some pretty amazing pixie dust machines sprinkling around the clock.

I believe they're 6k a pair, which makes the markup seem quite low as a pair of TPLs and TD woofer come to about 1.7k by my reckoning. I'd hazard that at that price point a 10x markup over raw drivers would be common, and the proportion spent of drivers only gets less from those price points up.
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post #14 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The TPL-150 looks like a really nice driver. I noticed you were in my CSS planar thread. They're very similar. Speaking from experience with that tweeter, it would mate to the AE 12 nicely I believe, although probably better suited to a 10". The Beyma might have more nuts down around 1khz. Depends. I think it has slightly more Sd and a bigger horn. A lot more expensive though.

Yes, I saw your thread a little while after starting this thread. I have just been intrigued with a horn loaded ribbon. Looking for something that has high resolution, good output for HT and can be crossed pretty low.

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post #15 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I just looked up Vapor Audio and they list their TPL-150H/TD10M speakers at $6k for a pair (at least I hope it is a pair). Wow, that is some healthy markup. Even if they paid full retail for the drivers they would only be in for about $900. They must have some pretty amazing pixie dust machines sprinkling around the clock.

Yep, AMT technology is quite nice. It bridges the gap between ribbons like Raals and high power high dynamics compression drivers. The biggest downside is the driver height which causes significant beaming at high frequencies. Oh and the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I just looked up Vapor Audio and they list their TPL-150H/TD10M speakers at $6k for a pair (at least I hope it is a pair). Wow, that is some healthy markup. Even if they paid full retail for the drivers they would only be in for about $900. They must have some pretty amazing pixie dust machines sprinkling around the clock.

I believe they're 6k a pair, which makes the markup seem quite low as a pair of TPLs and TD woofer come to about 1.7k by my reckoning. I'd hazard that at that price point a 10x markup over raw drivers would be common, and the proportion spent of drivers only gets less from those price points up.

You guys are kidding right? I'm separating the audible benefit from the cost to manufacture here... Look at the cabinet construction, curved sides, crossover components and even the expensive binding posts. Huge markup is not what comes to my mind compared to most you will find in boutique stores. Yes, you could build much less expensive cabinets, but that's not what they are selling.

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post #16 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 09:19 AM
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I think I was agreeing with you Mark, I said I thought they appeared a relatively good deal.
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post #17 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I just looked up Vapor Audio and they list their TPL-150H/TD10M speakers at $6k for a pair (at least I hope it is a pair). Wow, that is some healthy markup. Even if they paid full retail for the drivers they would only be in for about $900. They must have some pretty amazing pixie dust machines sprinkling around the clock.

Yep, AMT technology is quite nice. It bridges the gap between ribbons like Raals and high power high dynamics compression drivers. The biggest downside is the driver height which causes significant beaming at high frequencies. Oh and the cost.


Check out the Vapor Audio gallery. I'm sure a lot of labor goes into the stacked plywood enclosure for the Arcus.
http://www.vaporsound.com/#Arcus
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post #18 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bvan View Post

I believe they're 6k a pair, which makes the markup seem quite low as a pair of TPLs and TD woofer come to about 1.7k by my reckoning. I'd hazard that at that price point a 10x markup over raw drivers would be common, and the proportion spent of drivers only gets less from those price points up.

Except that is retail for those drivers. In small quantities wholesale is likely around 60% of that price so around $1000 for the pair and 2nd order crossovers shouldn't be all that expensive. They are using MDF cabs that are painted so there isn't the cost of exotic veneers. Of course they are using braided Kimber Kable internal wiring. That adds probably $10 over lampshade wire.

They also seem to be sold direct so I don't believe this is including a dealer markup.

They are probably very nice speakers and I do like the painted white look. I'm not knocking them. I'm just amazed how much some retail speakers sell for...or at least how much people ask for them. The company's name is Vapor...there is a good chance they've yet to sell a pair.

I will say that for a company charging $6k for a pair of bookshelf speakers, using a gated and spliced response from a free program like HolmImpulse is a little weak. There is nothing wrong with HolmImpulse, I use it, but I'm not trying to be a boutique speaker manufacturer.
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post #19 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 10:00 AM
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Check out the Vapor Audio gallery. I'm sure a lot of labor goes into the stacked plywood enclosure for the Arcus.
http://www.vaporsound.com/#Arcus

Labor? No. CNC time, yes.

Look, I'm a DIYer and I haven't bought retail speakers in years so maybe I'm just off base here. The cost of drivers for these speakers is very similar to the JTR Noesis 212HT which sells for $4400/pair. Of course, JTR doesn't use cutesy binding posts etc which I put little value on but others do. JTR's boxes also aren't curved but are high quality and larger. Then again, this is the only retail speaker I've seen that uses an AMT on a horn so maybe they can charge that premium.
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post #20 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Labor? No. CNC time, yes.

Look, I'm a DIYer and I haven't bought retail speakers in years so maybe I'm just off base here. The cost of drivers for these speakers is very similar to the JTR Noesis 212HT which sells for $4400/pair. Of course, JTR doesn't use cutesy binding posts etc which I put little value on but others do. JTR's boxes also aren't curved but are high quality and larger. Then again, this is the only retail speaker I've seen that uses an AMT on a horn so maybe they can charge that premium.

What's the cost of materials for the forum favorite Noesis's? There actually is a market for speakers that look good in a living room. Not everyone would be happy with big black boxes in their living space and many more have demanding careers that don't allow time for DIY.
Would you prefer that high end retail speakers just not be available? A lot of these are small cottage enterprises that often can explore options that otherwise might not be available.
I doubt that Vapor Audio is making a fortune with their small business.
A lot up time is sucked up by the day to day details of just running a business and that must be added to the selling price. At a shop rate of $25>$60/hr. costs rise fast.eek.gif

Try building a stacked plywood complex curved box. I suspect, CNC or not, it's very time consuming. Also curved boxes will help with stiffness and mitigating internal reflections.
I often wonder if most of these high end builders are like gentleman farmers with independent wealth. The business is just a hobby and a passion.
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post #21 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 01:09 PM
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The cost of materials for the Noesis is about the same as for the Arcus. BMS coax + horn is about equivalent to the TPL-150H. The dual woofers is approximately in line with the TD10M. I doubt JTR uses audiophile grade wire and binding posts of course...and that does add to cost...and some people do value that stuff. Yes, the large Noesis speakers are not the sexiest around, but these Arcus are not small either. In fact the sealed Noesis is narrower, the same depth. It is a foot taller because of it being an MTM. I only mention the JTR Noesis because I knew the cost of the components used and I knew they were in the same ballpark. Maybe the curved box is worth $1000 additional per speaker.

I'm not suggesting Vapor Audio should get anything less than what the market will bear. I was just surprised to see markup that high. Like I said, I'm years removed from buying retail speakers. These don't even include a dealer markup. Maybe I'm just out of touch. Most of the time it is harder to identify the price of components in retail speakers, but in this case I knew the components well.

As far as building a stacked MDF curved cabinet cut on a CNC, it is actually quite easy and not labor intensive. There would be some sanding, paint prep and painting time. Now with some of the other more expensive veneered speakers I can understand the costs being high due to the labor and materials involved with making them at a high level.
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post #22 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 01:44 PM
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BTW Vapor Audio doesn't have retail outlets. They appear to be internet direct only with each speaker individually built to customers preferences.
Personally, I'd never order a speaker at this price level thus I'm in the DIY camp too. As far as audiophile jewelry such as fancy wire, etc., I evaluate each tweak individually and won't cut corners just to save some $. I figure that it takes a lot of time to build speakers so might as well use the best materials as I believe that sound quality is the sum of many tweaks, large and small. Like why not use the best wire inside the cabinet? It's just a couple of feet and a very small percentage of the total cost and labor. As a design philosophy I'm sure many here would beg to differ.
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post #23 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

Check out the Vapor Audio gallery. I'm sure a lot of labor goes into the stacked plywood enclosure for the Arcus.
http://www.vaporsound.com/#Arcus

Labor? No. CNC time, yes.

Look, I'm a DIYer and I haven't bought retail speakers in years so maybe I'm just off base here. The cost of drivers for these speakers is very similar to the JTR Noesis 212HT which sells for $4400/pair. Of course, JTR doesn't use cutesy binding posts etc which I put little value on but others do. JTR's boxes also aren't curved but are high quality and larger. Then again, this is the only retail speaker I've seen that uses an AMT on a horn so maybe they can charge that premium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The cost of materials for the Noesis is about the same as for the Arcus. BMS coax + horn is about equivalent to the TPL-150H. The dual woofers is approximately in line with the TD10M. I doubt JTR uses audiophile grade wire and binding posts of course...and that does add to cost...and some people do value that stuff. Yes, the large Noesis speakers are not the sexiest around, but these Arcus are not small either. In fact the sealed Noesis is narrower, the same depth. It is a foot taller because of it being an MTM. I only mention the JTR Noesis because I knew the cost of the components used and I knew they were in the same ballpark. Maybe the curved box is worth $1000 additional per speaker.

I'm not suggesting Vapor Audio should get anything less than what the market will bear. I was just surprised to see markup that high. Like I said, I'm years removed from buying retail speakers. These don't even include a dealer markup. Maybe I'm just out of touch. Most of the time it is harder to identify the price of components in retail speakers, but in this case I knew the components well.

As far as building a stacked MDF curved cabinet cut on a CNC, it is actually quite easy and not labor intensive. There would be some sanding, paint prep and painting time. Now with some of the other more expensive veneered speakers I can understand the costs being high due to the labor and materials involved with making them at a high level.

DIYers often ignore cabinet construction, finishing and speaker assembly and testing time. For any real business that means someone is doing this rather than some other day job, so someone is getting paid for all of the time involved. Don't forget another $60-100 for packing up the pair of speakers.

Materials to build a cabinet are rarely cost factors unless really exotic materials are used such as solid surface materials like say a big Wilson speaker. The CNC time into a stacked cabinet vs. a cabinet like the Noesis is a multiple, and that machine time is expensive. The machine time will often be much more than the material cost. I think you missed that the base finish is a veneer, and the painted finishes come at a premium. If you wanted the JTR's veneered you would suddenly be around $5k for the pair, and while they are quite effective, the JTRs use much less expensive and less exotic woofers than the AE drivers used in the Arcus or my own Catalysts. Veneering the stacked cabinets should be the easiest finish, as painting over all those seams means LOTS of prep work to insure the seams don't show through 2 weeks or 2 months after they are painted. Even a nice looking veneer finish takes a few days and multiple hours longer to complete than the industrial black finish of a JTR speaker. Most cabinet shops will tell you that finishing represents 1/3 to 3/4 the cost of a finished product depending on how involved the process is. Also consider that JTR should probably be charging more for the Noesis so consider that example as an extreme end of sale price vs raw parts cost.

To be clear, my point/issue is with the idea of the "huge markup on parts", not how well the money was put to use or it's sonic value.

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post #24 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Yep, AMT technology is quite nice. It bridges the gap between ribbons like Raals and high power high dynamics compression drivers. The biggest downside is the driver height which causes significant beaming at high frequencies. Oh and the cost.

Could you please explain this a little more? How does the driver height correlate to beaming? Are ribbons similarly affected?
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post #25 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 08:29 PM
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Vapor is a DIYer turned retail who some may know as double tap from over on tech talk. I personally wouldn't pay for all the fancy caps resistors and binding posts, but his building is thorough.

I do agree the HolmImpulse measurement is weak sauce. In fact it's probably against the terms. They should plunk down the few hundred on LSP cad (is that right) or something pro. And take the time to measure in a more anechoic environment. I guess at least there is a measurement.
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post #26 of 56 Old 08-09-2013, 08:32 PM
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AV, sounds like the Beyma would make an excellent choice for you to try. I'd check the horn size though, I wouldn't go bigger than 10" with the CSS. If the Beyma is bigger it may work fine with a 12, but the CSS starts to go wide around 1400hz.

Alf, the height of a ribbon causes beaming just like a large woofer does, except its not equal in all directions like a woofer, just in the long direction (vertical).
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post #27 of 56 Old 08-10-2013, 07:05 AM
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So what would be the optimal crossover point for the TPL-150H?
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post #28 of 56 Old 08-10-2013, 08:09 AM
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As BllDo mentioned, BEF uses a norwegian design, Inconcert Miles, in his home theater. The design uses a TPL-150H in a 2 way design with 2 beyma 15P80Nd using a 800hx XO.
Although he did modify them with a 10" mid and another 15P80Nd, for even better mids and bass. And he has sold them now...

here is some norwegian information from a few years back from when the designer was building and selling them (later made the plans available on the net for DIY, when he stopped selling them)

http://avforum.no/avnytt/showproduct.php/product/1899
Google translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Favforum.no%2Favnytt%2Fshowproduct.php%2Fproduct%2F1899&act=url

Also, there is a thread on the South African AVforum regarding the TPL-150H wich was excellent, but all the pictures are missing. Still a good read tho.
http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,16389.0.html
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post #29 of 56 Old 08-10-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I am debating this. I do not want my cabinet any wider nor any deeper than I currently have. Height I can do within reason. Right now my boxes are 26" high, 14" wide and 11" deep. Even considering using two TD12M's with the TPL-150H in an MTM arrangement. Any suggestions?

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With the width restriction of 14" and the depth restriction of 11", is there anything else you would recommend over the current TD12M and SEOS-12 with DNA-360? These restrictions are due to the lack of depth behind my screen and can't really steal anymore from the room. Let's say, 4K budget for front three speakers. No exotic finishes needed. Will be painted flat black and go behind my screen.

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post #30 of 56 Old 08-10-2013, 09:43 PM
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Well that's a tricky one. At 14" you can't do the SEOS 15. There may be some upgrade to the TPL -150, but how much I don't know. There may be other horns I'm not aware of.

Why? Current rig not cutting it, or you're just a DIY addict like the rest of us?
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