SubMaximus -- A Large Front-Loaded Horn for UXL18 and Stereo Integrity HT 18" - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 07:43 AM
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You are in NoVa? Where is this shop that you speak of???
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post #512 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
The "they" is a fellow AVS member. I won't post prices in case he charged me more or less than others. He took the components in the sketchup files and translated then from 3d to 2.5d g code.
OK. I've been reading a dozen or so posts and it looks like a couple of people (e.g., gorilla) are years ahead of me with the same approach... instead of complete flat packs, the side panels are usually the most important/trickiest, 3/4" routed paths with maybe a ~1/8" depth groove for panel guides, maybe with a slightly deeper center trough/ditch as a guide for the PL nozzle bead line, baffle center (or have the circle cut out for the preferred driver or minimum radius driver or easily adjustable radius or variant files for various drivers, some basic panel labeling.

At this point, it's faster for me to cut the panels manually. But CNC has always been on my list of things to learn. I'd like to support any local small shops or start-ups that can provide tools, facilities, and services for the maker community. And I'd like to contribute to an AVS DIY library of CNC-ready sketchup designs and a geographic list of shops that can route the designs at reasonable rates.

My younger son is big into HS robotics so we might try a DIY CNC, but I'd love to jump straight into a 4x8 router table... except for a few restrictions (like lack of time, money, space, and knowledge) .
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post #513 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 08:18 AM
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Great to see this thread get a bump. I am trying to design a FLH with the same BW as an Othorn and going to try and do a fold like the Maximus subwoofer. Always nice to see another great design by LTD.
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post #514 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 08:24 AM
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Run your design by lilMike ^ for quick look see. Worth it. I've come to trust his opinion on horns, he's learned a lot from his own mistakes And experiences.
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post #515 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
Ironically Erich stopped the Anarchy horn design because he was losing money on the shipping...and that is a very very small horn for a 6.5" driver

The DTS-10 were kits from Danley. How much was shipping and such for those? I would imagine the work for Erich to do for a horn that had a 10" driver would be extremely difficult.

I personally just had 3 sealed subs created at a local CNC. I made the designs myself in sketchup and had those components cut via the CNC. I can do the work with a router and table saw, but instead of taking several days of measuring, cutting, gluing, sanding, dry fitting, etc., I spent about 4 hours total to go to a lumber yard, put the 6 sheets of plywood on a machine and watch it cut the sheets. I then had the 3 boxes assembled back at my house that same day.

Where there is a will, there is a way ... that is all part of the DIY spirit in my opinion.
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post #516 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Great to see this thread get a bump. I am trying to design a FLH with the same BW as an Othorn and going to try and do a fold like the Maximus subwoofer. Always nice to see another great design by LTD.

BW like the othorn shouldn't require lots of back and forth inside the horn. post up a sketch and give me a shout when ready. interested to see what you cook up.

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post #517 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 05:08 PM
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Trying to get the horn size down to fit a certain size. Right now TB46 is helping me fit the design and he is folding it. I am trying to learn the basics and proceed from there but it takes me a long time using Sketchup and going from there. Long time.

SO far the design is about 680l. There are a few other designs models that I have that look good but I will just send you a PM LTD02. Still refining things but I also dont want to take this great design off track.
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post #518 of 523 Old 03-28-2015, 10:11 PM
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can we use SI HST18 for this FLH ?
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post #519 of 523 Old 03-29-2015, 05:44 PM
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John,

Do you have a plot of the Submaximus vs the F20 handy?
I have SH18's and the JBl 15 are easily obtainable.
I was thinking Marty or similar size ported cab for the HT18's, I may rethink.

Thanks

Gary

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #520 of 523 Old 03-30-2015, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
OK. I've been reading a dozen or so posts and it looks like a couple of people (e.g., gorilla) are years ahead of me with the same approach... instead of complete flat packs, the side panels are usually the most important/trickiest, 3/4" routed paths with maybe a ~1/8" depth groove for panel guides, maybe with a slightly deeper center trough/ditch as a guide for the PL nozzle bead line, baffle center (or have the circle cut out for the preferred driver or minimum radius driver or easily adjustable radius or variant files for various drivers, some basic panel labeling.

At this point, it's faster for me to cut the panels manually. But CNC has always been on my list of things to learn. I'd like to support any local small shops or start-ups that can provide tools, facilities, and services for the maker community. And I'd like to contribute to an AVS DIY library of CNC-ready sketchup designs and a geographic list of shops that can route the designs at reasonable rates.

My younger son is big into HS robotics so we might try a DIY CNC, but I'd love to jump straight into a 4x8 router table... except for a few restrictions (like lack of time, money, space, and knowledge) .
Here are three shots of the DO design ... top and bottom panels are identical ... cutout panels are identical ... bracing panels are identical ... sides are the same with the exception that one size has the cutout for the speakon terminals. To cut the panels for two of these boxes was like 100 minutes ...

Looking at the sketchup file for the submaximus, I think the side panels and driver panel are really the only panels a CNC could speed up dramatically. However, those are huge pieces to move ...
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post #521 of 523 Old 07-01-2016, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i've copied the important information into this post so that it is all in one place. if i left anything out, please let me know and i will add it. thanks...




only if you need more than 130db output at 20hz in your home.

the compression ratio was made low (only 2:1; most horns are 3 or higher), so it is friendly to the driver.

here is max output with 2kw power, 30mm xmax, 2pi space, 1 horn. red is where the driver is running out excursion and black is where it is running out of power. rough estimates are that it would be equal to about 2 ported cabs (double drivers and double power) tuned to around 20hz and equal to about 3 cabs (triple drivers and power) at the upper end of the bass.





the model has the motor detuned significantly because of the inductance effects (and the cab was modified from the original for that reason). the driver may not need quite that much detuning, but it shows that the horn will have a great response even if the inductance effect significantly limit the effective motor strength. de-tuning the motor of high inductance drivers for horns was given an extensive treatment in a paper by diyspeakerguy. a search should pull up his post and the paper that several of us contributed to on the topic. bottom line, i think that we have a pretty close model here. my guess is that room effects are going to have a much greater impact than the margin of error in the model at this point.

also, be careful with this much output, as it can damage hard drives and other equipment that is sensitive to vibration damage.

the simulation uses 80 volts. the re of the driver is 3.2 ohms, so that would translate to 2000 "watts".




it was brought to my attention that the current version of hornresp has an option for modeling large voice coil drivers (such as the uxl).

this is the frequency response with the large voice coil simulation option selected. it is substantially similar to my 'manual adjustment' of the driver parameters.





other drivers may work. we would need to take a look at them one by one.


driver displacement minimum is around 22hz in model. in practice, it will probably be a hair lower. a protective high pass around 20hz is necessary when running with high power, 3rd order at 20hz or so would be a good starting point.







25.5" wide x 36" deep x 80" tall



25.5" inches wide, so all center panels are ~24" width--cut sheet friendly.
height was increased until horn length and rear chamber fit model.
driver de-tune is guess, so there may be "better guesses".
compression ratio was kept very low, shouldn't be much risk of damaging driver (high pass required obviously)
man scaled to 6' tall.
80 volts into 3.2 ohms is exactly 2000 watts. driver at first maximum comes up to around 30mm.


"I'm intrigued, do continue. Is this something you've been on for a while or did we peak your interest enough to draw this up?"

with what we learned about de-tuning high inductance drivers for horn modeling (thanks primarily to diy speaker guy), i thought it was about time to go ahead and redo-Submaximus. this one has a similar fold pattern as the f20 but this one is MUCH larger. it is huge actually. not meant to go after the very lowest notes, i still think the ported are best when that is the goal (i wouldn't be surprised to see this one get strong response down to around 16-17hz in room, even with a protective high pass, but that will depend on the room).

i lack any more creativity, so this one shall be known as...SUBMAXIMUS V3 UXL.




UXL driver (detuned as well, and showing inductance effects) in a ~15 c.f. ported cab tune a little under 20hz driven with same 2kw power. looks like this horn is good for about 5-6db across most of the range. since it will be asked, dark red line is 5.5 cubic footer sealed. 2kw same motor detuning. hits just over xmax in this size cab with that power.
















- the internal panels are 24" wide (slightly less from rip cutting won't matter)


- the "braces/brackets" showing the measurements are for the internal air space.


- good bracing is required.


- i'm not sure if the black diagonal deflector at 14/15 actually does anything other than serve as a brace.


- side panels are 36" x 80". best practice would be to draw the panel layout onto a side piece.


- the measurements will vary by a slight amount depending on the precise thickness of the wood panels ("three quarter inch plywood" in many cases is 23/32). that won't affect performance in any way, just be aware of it where you want the panels to line up just right (on the outside of the cab for example).


- try to get measurement 1 as close as possible to 3.23 inches. that measurement sets the "compression ratio", which for this horn is actually pretty low, so there is actually some wiggle room there. but still, if only one measurement on the entire horn is 'perfect', that should be it.


- a removable panel could be cut in the side for access to the driver if that is desired.


- this aspect of the design process actually required the most time/work. if somebody could double check these measurements, i'd appreciate it.


one bracing strategy--single row of 6" braces down the center of the cab. two rows might be even better, but more work. doubling up on the first brace in front of the driver might not be a bad idea.







cut sheet layout suggests 4 sheets may be possible.










This is the 18 HST D2 v2. T/S taken from DB. Large coil has been selected on this simulation and voltage adjusted to hit Xmax at 30hz. There hasnt been a sealed response recorded for this newer 18HST. Other wise I would adjust BL.



And this is the 18Zv3 D1 with BL adjusted and voltage applied to hit Xmax again. Gray is the UXL.


This design seems to work well with the 21's from BC and 18 Sound also.(21LW2500, DS115 and SW152/IPAL) I tried the HST Mk2 and it looks worse than the older HST. SO I would say thats not a suitable driver for this design. Also tried the 18DS4 and it did not look very good either.

SO, so far it looks like these drivers have suitable response shapes for this design:
18UXL Mach 5
18Zv3 Sundown
18SP4 D1 HT FI
18XL1800 FP
18N862 BMS
18 -JBL 2269
21SW152 BC
21DS115 BC
21IPAL BC

I could probably list a lot more drivers but dont think anyone will use them. So if you have the room this looks like a great design for a LOT of high power 18/21's.

Last edited by chrapladm; 07-03-2016 at 06:48 AM.
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post #522 of 523 Old 07-11-2016, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
This is the 18 HST D2 v2. T/S taken from DB. Large coil has been selected on this simulation and voltage adjusted to hit Xmax at 30hz. There hasnt been a sealed response recorded for this newer 18HST.

Can the Sub Maximus V3 be integrated with sealed subwoofers in a theater OR is it better to use a Large Ported Design? Sealed subs used for near field.


** I didn't want to quote the entire thread **

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post #523 of 523 Old 07-12-2016, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
Can the Sub Maximus V3 be integrated with sealed subwoofers in a theater OR is it better to use a Large Ported Design? Sealed subs used for near field.


** I didn't want to quote the entire thread **
I would use sealed with FLH's. I am sure there is a way you could use the ported cabinet with a horn but I havent been lucky. SO for me its always been a sealed with horned subwoofer configuration from my experiences.
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