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Old 10-10-2013, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I won't have two rows of 4, I will have 4 rows of 2, top and bottom like JapanDave's except on the sides of the mains and in between.

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Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Why did you switch to an array? I have manifolds with two sets of dual opposed subs in each manifold. The manifolds are completely inert. When we had the Omaha Home Theater Tour last year I had all my furniture plus about 25 people in the room. That is over 2 tons on the floor! My floor easily flexed during the demos - especially during Flight of the Phoenix. This is just from the pressure of the back wave/front wave without any driver force. I can't imagine now adding driver force to the baffle wall in addition to the sound waves generated by 8 18" drivers.

I guess Brian Owens did okay with his build: New (8) 18" Fi IB3 IB build









As awesome as that looks, the wall is no where near built enough to withstand the forces of those drivers. Heck, I had 4 IXL is a wall 3" thick braced 10 times that and it still was pulling the screws through the 2 x 6's. That wall must flex pretty good but it sire it a sight to see lol

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Old 10-10-2013, 06:19 PM
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"Bizarre formatting going on, tried to edit, to no avail
fixed it, weird ..."

just a glitch in the matrix. :-)

foh, by lack of coupling all I was referring to was the lack of coupling from one motor to another. in a smallish sealed enclosure, if you have two drivers and push one in, the other moves out, because the air pressure between them couples them together. in a theoretical infinite baffle if you push one driver in, nothing happens to the second driver, so they are not coupled together, at least not in the same sense. even in manifold where one driver is sitting right in front of the other, i'm not sure that there is any coupling for that reason, or at least it is not quite the same.

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Old 10-10-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah that wall looks like it will flex. My drivers will be in 1.5 inch ply and 4x8 worth of studs.

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Old 10-11-2013, 07:46 AM
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I would totally do an array like that myself...but the neighbors might not like the looks of speakers hanging on the *outside* of the house. tongue.gif
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

push-pull reduces even order distortion non-linearities in the motor/suspension, but it is unclear how much coupling there would be in an infinite baffle because the whole point of an infinite baffle is the lack of coupling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

There's been several push pull IBs I've seen, I didn't employ mine that way because of simple mounting logistics.

confused.gif

Lack of coupling, ..? What are you referring to?
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

foh, by lack of coupling all I was referring to was the lack of coupling from one motor to another. in a smallish sealed enclosure, if you have two drivers and push one in, the other moves out, because the air pressure between them couples them together. in a theoretical infinite baffle if you push one driver in, nothing happens to the second driver, so they are not coupled together, at least not in the same sense. even in manifold where one driver is sitting right in front of the other, i'm not sure that there is any coupling for that reason, or at least it is not quite the same.

Ok, I'm merely focusing on the acoustic energy into the room. Are you saying (something I'd not considered frankly) the benefits from push-pull are lessened by minimal rear coupling?

Parham; "It works best at low frequencies with drivers physically close together, especially when operated in a common chamber. The further apart they are, the less coupling is provided."

The the acoustic nulling is most effective when their outputs, front and rear, are in lockstep? I'd suggest the wavelengths of interest are so long that it precludes any concern.

It could be said a manifold IB, is akin to the acoustic inverse of the small box sub in a room. One side's acoustic output is more closely coupled than the other.

That said, I'd think an IB would still enjoy the benefits, but maybe more in the aero asymmetry nulling, as opposed to the heat and magnetic flux modulation linearization. IBs already enjoy a distinct advantage possessing inherently lower motor currents, lessening their need for such Push-Pull benefits.

But, like most all things, proof is in the testing.

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Old 10-11-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post

I would totally do an array like that myself...but the neighbors might not like the looks of speakers hanging on the *outside* of the house. tongue.gif

I've seen multiple IB builds for HTs whereby the back-side is the outside.

Go for it, ... put a plant by it. smile.gif


I spent years in and around the Convention Center business, being involved in many aspects of big time sporting events, live performances, and of course conventions of all sizes. "Put a plant by it" was our go to saying for any aesthetic concern.
wlelandj and robertintemple like this.

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Old 10-11-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yeah that wall looks like it will flex. My drivers will be in 1.5 inch ply and 4x8 worth of studs.

Sounds like you'll be fine. Besides, additional spreading of the sources should provide even more modal smoothing in both floor-to-ceiling, and side-to-side. You'll essentially have a planar wave coming at you. Plus, it'll look bad-arse. cool.gif

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Old 10-11-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Sounds like you'll be fine. Besides, additional spreading of the sources should provide even more modal smoothing in both floor-to-ceiling, and side-to-side. You'll essentially have a planar wave coming at you. Plus, it'll look bad-arse. cool.gif

Good. This is good. cool.gif
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I've seen multiple IB builds for HTs whereby the back-side is the outside.

Go for it, ... put a plant by it. smile.gif


I spent years in and around the Convention Center business, being involved in many aspects of big time sporting events, live performances, and of course conventions of all sizes. "Put a plant by it" was our go to saying for any aesthetic concern.
Put a plant by it LMAO!

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Old 10-11-2013, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Put a plant by it LMAO!

Well, true story smile.gif

... ever see a major trade-show on the eve prior to opening? The uninitiated can never conceive how it'll ever open on time, let alone appear nicely put together.

Those big shows couldn't happen without many essentials, and as I said, a lot of plants. Then gorgeous "hired guns" are brought in as marketing tools, ..nobody has a problem with the trip hazards, and strategically placed plants as long as the hired guns are vying for their attention ... luring individuals into their booth to exhibit their wares. The irony of a buxom, scantily clad amazon getting one's attention while handing out product literature goes unappreciated until you see her displaying a large print credential reading "Exhibitor", ... yeah sweetie, we know.

I digress ..


Back to the baffle wall IB construction.

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Old 10-11-2013, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Well, true story smile.gif

... ever see a major trade-show on the eve prior to opening? The uninitiated can never conceive how it'll ever open on time, let alone appear nicely put together.

Those big shows couldn't happen without many essentials, and as I said, a lot of plants. Then gorgeous "hired guns" are brought in as marketing tools, ..nobody has a problem with the trip hazards, and strategically placed plants as long as the hired guns are vying for their attention ... luring individuals into their booth to exhibit their wares. The irony of a buxom, scantily clad amazon getting one's attention while handing out product literature goes unappreciated until you see her displaying a large print credential reading "Exhibitor", ... yeah sweetie, we know.

I digress ..


Back to the baffle wall IB construction.

Nice man I could imagine.

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Old 10-15-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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OK guys, I have some other things going on now as well. I have 5 Behringer Truth 2031A's and I just ordered 3 SEOS Fusion 10 pure kits with assembled crossovers. I am attending CHT's GTG for their new products and will compare the SEOS. I will also compare the SEOS to my BFM speakers too. I will throw back in the JTR 888LP too just for kicks. You know how memory is so I always remind myself!

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:12 AM
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behringer truth's? fusion 10 pures?

mk, have you seen what chop is building in his seosr project? seos24 / bms 459_ coaxial / dual td15m's. high sensitivity, point source, mid-bass monsters.

just say'n.

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Well these speakers fell into my lap! The truths were free along with a B&K reference 20 processor! The SEOS will go to a good home unless they are better surrounds than my current W10's!

I have been watching the SEOSR build, I would love a DR type speaker with that BMS coaxial!

Besides I did own the JBL 4675C-LF's which had a huge horn and CD with dual 2226's!

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

OK guys, I have some other things going on now as well. I have 5 Behringer Truth 2031A's and I just ordered 3 SEOS Fusion 10 pure kits with assembled crossovers. I am attending CHT's GTG for their new products and will compare the SEOS. I will also compare the SEOS to my BFM speakers too. I will throw back in the JTR 888LP too just for kicks. You know how memory is so I always remind myself!
Nice man sounds like a lot of fun. Curious how the Fusion 10 will compare to the 888 and if they remind u of the SHO-10. Also excited for CHTs new Theater 10 and hope u get to hear them. The BFMs r gunna b LCR champs. I'm not familiar with the Behringers. Fusion 10s should b kickass surrounds

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:33 AM
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I had no idea CHT was even still in existence. Granted, I really wouldn't know, but did ASSume they went belly up.

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Besides I did own the JBL 4675C-LF's which had a huge horn and CD with dual 2226's!

Loved those, and would've enjoyed seeing them/experimenting w/them mated to an über high end compression driver.

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Loved those, and would've enjoyed seeing them/experimenting w/them mated to an über high end compression driver.

Trust me when I say this, I would have never sold them if I did not need the room for subs. Once I went to IB or multiple sealed I needed more space and they had to go. They are still one of my favorite speakers ever! I do like my DR-250 stacks better but the sound stage and mid bass still go to the mighty JBL's! Throw that BMS coaxial and horn on top and who knows?

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:46 AM
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I trust you, and I understand entirely. Plus, you've been on one helluva odyssey, experiencing various mains and subwoofing approaches first hand, in your room. cool.gif

That's very cool.

I've experimented significantly as well, also employing differing sidewall acoustic strategies mated to mains approaches. I've not experimented wrt subwoofer type as you have. But I have experimented with various optimization techniques, time alignments, etc, with my current IB/multiple small-sealed system.

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Old 10-15-2013, 01:59 PM
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I had no idea CHT was even still in existence. Granted, I really wouldn't know, but did ASSume they went belly up.

You haven't missed much. Apparently they are ditching the SHO-10's in favor of slapping their name on some mystery Chinese PA speakers, the 'Vcomtek MS-10+':

http://www.vcomtek.com/product/Professional_sound_speaker/2012/0525/83.html

"MS series speaker light in weight,easy to install and hang up,ladder-shape design,control internal standing wave.Outstanding for its sound design to make the sound much clear.It applied to small medium-sized conference room."

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Old 10-15-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, let's move on please, you need to let it go already. Let's focus on IB and SEOS build.

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Old 10-15-2013, 05:24 PM
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"Well these speakers fell into my lap!"

ah! was just wondering...

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:21 PM
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Any pics of your handy work so far to the baffle wall?

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Ok, let's move on please, you need to let it go already. Let's focus on IB and SEOS build.

No problem. You brought up CHT and their new products though. I was just filling in for those who don't know (which is most people). smile.gif
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:28 PM
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and iirc chase partnered with the audio advisor guy to form new company...chain home theater or something like that? maybe it was april fools joke. not sure.

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:08 PM
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I heard the same. Think they spelled it Chane

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Old 10-17-2013, 07:39 AM
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey MK, how far into the single digits will these eight IB drivers extend in your room? What kind of SPL do you anticipate at and below 10hz?

Max numbers I assume? I usually listen at reference with the LFE 10 dBs hot because I love to feel those ULF's on the body. After looking at some other threads I will try a flat setting but having a house curve boosting the low end. I usually calibrate to a flat response to 4-5 hz and then raise the level 10 dBs on the sub trim. My last system was -3 dBs at 5 hz with the sherbourn AVR in the mix and -3 dBs at 10hz with the meridian. Go figure! I never saved the graph of the sherbourn. I noticed this running spec lab graphs and I gain lots of low end on the same spec graphs.

I hit 127 dBs at 10hz with my last system and now I can't get my sound card to go over 115 dBs since running spec lab. I will figure it out once I am up and running. I am waiting on my tools to return to finish this. I need to add a single 2x4 to the frame, add 2x4's for the attachment of the drivers, then of course add the plywood and cut the circles. Then add another layer of plywood. Once I have the drivers in place I will wire them up and test them just to make sure they all move together. Then I will add the shelves to the speakers. Before I install the speakers I am adding a brand new back panel to my center channel with the proper crossovers. Then I can place the speakers and wire them up and make sure they are working. Finally I will seal them up and add linoacoustic rolls to the wall and then test again. Add screen and then measure! My brother is helping with all this and he only showed up 3 times and 3 hours per so that is why it is taking so long. My other friends who would have finished this in a day are busy but I am bribing them to come over. Hopefully soon. I will take pics before I close anything and use the better camera.

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3 Inuke NU4-6000 amps for all speakers.
Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
Front subs 8 SI 18ht ported SLLT powered by Peavy IPR 7500
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Max numbers I assume? I usually listen at reference with the LFE 10 dBs hot because I love to feel those ULF's on the body. After looking at some other threads I will try a flat setting but having a house curve boosting the low end. I usually calibrate to a flat response to 4-5 hz and then raise the level 10 dBs on the sub trim. My last system was -3 dBs at 5 hz with the sherbourn AVR in the mix and -3 dBs at 10hz with the meridian. Go figure! I never saved the graph of the sherbourn. I noticed this running spec lab graphs and I gain lots of low end on the same spec graphs.

I hit 127 dBs at 10hz with my last system and now I can't get my sound card to go over 115 dBs since running spec lab. I will figure it out once I am up and running. I am waiting on my tools to return to finish this. I need to add a single 2x4 to the frame, add 2x4's for the attachment of the drivers, then of course add the plywood and cut the circles. Then add another layer of plywood. Once I have the drivers in place I will wire them up and test them just to make sure they all move together. Then I will add the shelves to the speakers. Before I install the speakers I am adding a brand new back panel to my center channel with the proper crossovers. Then I can place the speakers and wire them up and make sure they are working. Finally I will seal them up and add linoacoustic rolls to the wall and then test again. Add screen and then measure! My brother is helping with all this and he only showed up 3 times and 3 hours per so that is why it is taking so long. My other friends who would have finished this in a day are busy but I am bribing them to come over. Hopefully soon. I will take pics before I close anything and use the better camera.

Free beer and pizza usually gets my helper friends on board for some labor.

When do the Fusion kits show up?

JBL Pro Cinema/Crown power/Sony SXRD
MANCHESTER UNITED!!
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