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post #91 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

FOH,
Man, you know what the hell you are talking about! My phasing was bad at the crossover region before as you said and distance delays fixed it pretty good without EQ. What worked was setting the distance to the subs at half what they really were and it smoothed out the crossover area.

Glad it helped.

In overly simplified terms, achieving good sound is all about the room, specifically the speaker/room interface. And the room is all about the time domain.


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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I can tell you guys that adding the sound board, which is something unique to my room, has made every single rattle or creak or moan go away! The noise floor is very low and the loudest thing in my room is the projector.

This is sweet. Any advancement on the noise floor is essentially just as good as more output on the other end. Certainly an area whereby I can do better, noise floor in my room,.. both the dead quiet end, and the structural moans and flutter upon hitting the deepest material.


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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So guys should I use MDF or plywood for my wall? The bracing is almost done and when it is I will take a pic. I can't fit the manifolds where the pic above said be a use the drivers would hit my speakers. I am lining them up across the front stage all on the bottom all separated equally. Two will be in the front corners and two will be on the sides of the center. My brother who is helping me thinks all this bracing is crazy.


I'd use a good plywood, not the Baltic birch, but a nice multi-ply whatever. Whatever you can get right.

I like glued and screwed myself. Keep the throat as short as possible,..ie., keep the driver as close to the front as you can, but retain workability. I mean just be mindful of it. Also, keep the back of the manifold chamber as short as possible, from the driver to the box back plate.

It concerns me somewhat, ... what you said regarding the outer two manifolds. Maybe not an issue however ideally, you want as much free air around the drivers back-wave area as you can manage. How close will the adjacent wall/structure be relative to the driver basket? Whatever you end up doing, fill the volume as much as possible with fluffy insulation, while retaining a small bit of open air space.

Pictures or diagram would be helpful.

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post #92 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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If it sucks from not having enough space I will extend my front wall into the laundry room but build it to keep the sound in. If I did not care about that I would have just cut 4 rectangles on my front wall and attach the manifolds and done! The tricky part is working with what I have. So these will be very close to the side walls keeping the opening to the manifolds at 16 inches wide.
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post #93 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I will remeasure and see if I can move them over and keep them from being too close.
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post #94 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I went back and re-read the the correspondence I had with the iSEMcon, the mic company. It is a constant current mic that is DC coupled and does not have low frequency rolloff. I guess it is probably flat to 1 Hz.

Signal chain: Mic Preamp (Tascam US366) > AES/EBU digital to Computer (Lynx Studios AES16e) > AES/EBU to 8 channel DAC (Ross Martin Audio AES Eight) > DAC back to mic preamp.
Changing the slope of Spectrum Lab graphs to match with room measurements doesn't change the level of encoding nor does it change how it sounds in room with a properly calibrated system.

However, it does show why subwoofer manufacturers are able to use limiting on a sealed sub and still produce most of the bass content. I know Jeff Permanian at JTR uses actual disc content to set his limiters. All of the charts at data-bass.com are based on pink noise. When you tilt the Spectrum Lab graphs to match one can see that the highest bass content is above 40 Hz and still stays within the frequency response of the subs at high output. In other words, there is no variable frequency response as you move up in volume since the sub is still able to reproduce the bass signal properly.

Ported subs also reproduce more of the bass content than the Spectrum Labs graphs would indicate.
I don't. I was just saying that even though the mic is quite flat, I still use the calibration file when taking room measurements.

I'm not aware of any iSEMcon mic that's flat to 1 Hz. Can you post the model?

By signal chain, I meant the subwoofer system, which is what I thought you posted and certainly would be interested to know the components involved resulting in -0.5dB @ 3 Hz, not the measurement rig.

So, a sine sweep should rise +15dB from 120-3.5 Hz, right?

And the scene capped from Hulk is really at -25dBFS @ 5-9 Hz, not -12dBFS?

And re-recording mixers mix flat, not according to human hearing?

The problem I have is that the evidence doesn't mate well with the assertions. But, I would like to hear more, if you don't mind?
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post #95 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Steveo1234 View Post

Im not sure what you are searching for but perhaps I have some input.
Using REW and a miniDSP mic with correction file to 10db (and extrapolated correction down to 4hz assuming the graph is smooth) I measured the below at LP. Running 6 AE IB15" in a 25m^2 room with about 450W.

Thanks for the post, Steve.

I'm sure there's a calibration problem in that graph, but even so, it illustrates perfectly what I posted earlier. There's 6dB of compression up top feeding 450W into 6 subs. IOW, not enough amplifier. If you increase available amp power, the low end unloads.

I've said this too many times. It is the reality of the situation. For those who are still confused, the archives (and all available data) are your friend.smile.gif
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post #96 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I will remeasure and see if I can move them over and keep them from being too close.

You mean you aren't done yet???!!! biggrin.gifeek.gif
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post #97 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, this is unusual for me, I don't usually start a build thread unless I was done already. My drivers won't arrive for a week of two anyways. So I will just ask the usual questions until something happens. I will take pics o the wall frame when done but have been away today and another day this week.
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post #98 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

All my old graphs used to have a rising response like that and that is because of the corrected spl meter.

Here was the rolloff of my eD subs with a calibrated mic to 5hz. My bad as the subs were 10 dBs hot.


Whoa! 10+ db peak at 52hz.... You ran them like that?
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post #99 of 1094 Old 08-21-2013, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course not, that was a raw graph to show rolloff before EQ.
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post #100 of 1094 Old 08-22-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I'm not aware of any iSEMcon mic that's flat to 1 Hz. Can you post the model?

By signal chain, I meant the subwoofer system, which is what I thought you posted and certainly would be interested to know the components involved resulting in -0.5dB @ 3 Hz, not the measurement rig.

So, a sine sweep should rise +15dB from 120-3.5 Hz, right?

And the scene capped from Hulk is really at -25dBFS @ 5-9 Hz, not -12dBFS?

And re-recording mixers mix flat, not according to human hearing?

The problem I have is that the evidence doesn't mate well with the assertions. But, I would like to hear more, if you don't mind?

Bosso, take out the mic preamp listed for the loopback measurement and that is his signal chain- he's taken out the middle man so to speak just like you have with the Oppo. His HTPC is player/pre/pro with JRiver I believe, digital out to the Ross Martin DAC (essentially 8ch PCM), and of course analog to the sub amp (and presumably others for mains).

So the only introduced roll off is one step through the DAC (-0.5dB @ 3Hz) but then through the sub amp (F1200TS) which is unfortunately -9dB at 3Hz, for a combined roll off of -9.5dB at 3Hz that the drivers see.
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post #101 of 1094 Old 08-22-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So guys should I use MDF or plywood for my wall? The bracing is almost done and when it is I will take a pic. I can't fit the manifolds where the pic above said be a use the drivers would hit my speakers. I am lining them up across the front stage all on the bottom all separated equally. Two will be in the front corners and two will be on the sides of the center. My brother who is helping me thinks all this bracing is crazy.

I saw that FOH answered this, but thought I would also confirm. MDF is not structural. You want the wall to be a rigid as possible. Use 3/4" plywood. If you can get MDO or HDO it would be stronger than regular plywood.

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post #102 of 1094 Old 08-22-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Will do, I also think doing the manifolds spread out evenly helps as well. I can't place them ideally as the back of the manifolds would hit my speakers since I need something like 32 inches from woofer to woofer. You know, I did not think of this yet but maybe I can run the woofs on top and bottom of the manifolds instead and gets me the whole 78 inches of height to work with only one manifold! I think I just figured out a solution! So how about the manifolds facing up and down(woofers) where the motors are facing the ceiling and floor? This gives lots of options! I could place them anywhere and where LTD02 mentioned before.
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post #103 of 1094 Old 08-22-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Will do, I also think doing the manifolds spread out evenly helps as well. I can't place them ideally as the back of the manifolds would hit my speakers since I need something like 32 inches from woofer to woofer. You know, I did not think of this yet but maybe I can run the woofs on top and bottom of the manifolds instead and gets me the whole 78 inches of height to work with only one manifold! I think I just figured out a solution! So how about the manifolds facing up and down(woofers) where the motors are facing the ceiling and floor? This gives lots of options! I could place them anywhere and where LTD02 mentioned before.
I don't see any mention of horizontal mounting on the Fi site. You may want to contact them to ask about sagging issues before that kind of install.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #104 of 1094 Old 08-22-2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I'm not aware of any iSEMcon mic that's flat to 1 Hz. Can you post the model?
I have the EMM-7101-CHTB with custom calibration to 5 Hz. You can contact Wolfgang Frank at iSEMcon for more info.
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By signal chain, I meant the subwoofer system, which is what I thought you posted and certainly would be interested to know the components involved resulting in -0.5dB @ 3 Hz, not the measurement rig.
Playback and measurement are identical electronically for loopback except I add the preamp for measuring. Playback: HTPC > DAC > amps > speakers/subwoofers. If I use my Steinberg UR824 for playback, it is also the preamp and it is -0.5 dB at 3 Hz, too. Ricci can confirm that pro audio devices are basically flat to 3 Hz.
Quote:
So, a sine sweep should rise +15dB from 120-3.5 Hz, right?

And the scene capped from Hulk is really at -25dBFS @ 5-9 Hz, not -12dBFS?

And re-recording mixers mix flat, not according to human hearing?

The problem I have is that the evidence doesn't mate well with the assertions. But, I would like to hear more, if you don't mind?
I started the Spectrum Lab conversation in its own thread which clarifies a few things.
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post #105 of 1094 Old 08-23-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

I don't see any mention of horizontal mounting on the Fi site. You may want to contact them to ask about sagging issues before that kind of install.

I contacted them a year or so ago to verify this. They assured me that up or down firing would not pose any issues.
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post #106 of 1094 Old 08-23-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome!
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post #107 of 1094 Old 08-23-2013, 11:02 AM
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I have been away quite a while and I come back and nothing has changed, James is doing something new that is epic. I think I caught the other epic changes in the middle but I might have missed one.

Bravo, release the Kraken!

Bill

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Clearwave 4TSE and 4CC build thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19489740
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post #108 of 1094 Old 08-23-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I waited over a year!
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post #109 of 1094 Old 08-23-2013, 05:19 PM
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I waited over a year!

The withdraw pain just got so great that MK had to do it. smile.gif

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post #110 of 1094 Old 08-23-2013, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I was reluctant to let my subs go.
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post #111 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 05:14 AM
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I was reluctant to let my subs go.

Did a fellow enthusiast/AVS'er procure them?

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post #112 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes he did. He will be starting a thread when he starts his theater build.
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post #113 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I was reluctant to let my subs go.

I am making changes to my sub system also. Adding a pair of TD18H drivers for added mid-bass.

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post #114 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I understand the need for Midbass but I really don't see the need if one has a good Integration of mains and subs. My eD subs were low end subs and rolloff up high with high high inductance. My mains fall off at 150 hz. So one would think the 80 hz crossover would be bad. However, after measuring the THD at 80, 100, and 150hz I had plenty and at 105 dBs at my LP I was at .5% THD at 80-150 hz. The Midbass pounded really well and just about matched my dual JBL 15's. I am sure the 15's have a higher max spl but during reference listening it would be very difficult to tell them apart. The JBL had a bigger sound but not by much.
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post #115 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I understand the need for Midbass but I really don't see the need if one has a good Integration of mains and subs. My eD subs were low end subs and rolloff up high with high high inductance. My mains fall off at 150 hz. So one would think the 80 hz crossover would be bad. However, after measuring the THD at 80, 100, and 150hz I had plenty and at 105 dBs at my LP I was at .5% THD at 80-150 hz. The Midbass pounded really well and just about matched my dual JBL 15's. I am sure the 15's have a higher max spl but during reference listening it would be very difficult to tell them apart. The JBL had a bigger sound but not by much.

I originally went into this looking for better transient response in the upper bass, but I think I might like the added mid bass punch these will provide. Probably will stuff the port on my mains and run them sealed. That will give me a around 120hz f3. Then I will run the TD18H drivers from 60 hz to 120hz off the mains and I will try them off of the LFE channel running 60hz to 120hz maybe higher. Will cut off all of my other subs at 80 hz.

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post #116 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I understand the need for Midbass but I really don't see the need if one has a good Integration of mains and subs. My eD subs were low end subs and rolloff up high with high high inductance. My mains fall off at 150 hz. So one would think the 80 hz crossover would be bad. However, after measuring the THD at 80, 100, and 150hz I had plenty and at 105 dBs at my LP I was at .5% THD at 80-150 hz. The Midbass pounded really well and just about matched my dual JBL 15's. I am sure the 15's have a higher max spl but during reference listening it would be very difficult to tell them apart. The JBL had a bigger sound but not by much.

It's one of those thing you'd have to try. I never though I'd need my 2242's for my system but man, it's awesome with them rocking as well. In my system, it's a clear difference with the 2242's than without. That super snappy chest thumping goodness. Not that the subs and mains can't sound amazing but IMO I figured why not go all out biggrin.gif

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #117 of 1094 Old 08-24-2013, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I did have 6 2226's at one time and my horn loaded 10's come close. Like I said if one wants reference your mains and subs should match in sensitivity and capability to get what one needs. It all depends on the speakers. Ported 10's and smaller did not do it for me but all one had to do was raise the crossover but my subs are up front so localization was never an issue. Horn loaded 10's and up(includes ported 12's) do just fine. My horn loaded 8's needed MBM'S so for me horn loaded 10's are required or bigger.
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post #118 of 1094 Old 08-25-2013, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I did have 6 2226's at one time and my horn loaded 10's come close. Like I said if one wants reference your mains and subs should match in sensitivity and capability to get what one needs. It all depends on the speakers. Ported 10's and smaller did not do it for me but all one had to do was raise the crossover but my subs are up front so localization was never an issue. Horn loaded 10's and up(includes ported 12's) do just fine. My horn loaded 8's needed MBM'S so for me horn loaded 10's are required or bigger.

How do you wire up MBM's to your mains? Would you use something like a DCX2496 to set HP and LP filters to them and just set them up as extra LCR channels? Im considering wanting to add MBMs to my front end for more midbass.

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post #119 of 1094 Old 08-26-2013, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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My MBM's were daisy chained and ran thru the DCX.
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post #120 of 1094 Old 08-26-2013, 06:57 AM
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Well James, it didn't take long to get your new build going!

Just for everyone's reference, I am the guy who purchased MK's A7s-650 setup from him. Took a Ford Freestyle about 400 miles one way to pick them up! Luckily we were able to fit them all in the car (don't ask how we managed this), all while averaging 25 MPG at 75MPH! I just purchased a Peavey IPR2-7500 to power them, as I couldn't bring myself to take the risk of a clone. Anyways, I have finished sanding and painting the enclosures with Duratex. I will be working on framing the basement for a theater to put these in and will start a theater here in the next few weeks, once construction begins.

I wanted to give James a shout out for not only giving me an awesome demo and deal on the subwoofers, but also to how tremendous his room sounded (also to his brother for helping me load the monsters into the car). By far the best home theater I have ever heard, so it is giving me something to aim for with mine!
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