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post #1 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi everybody, long time listener, first time caller. Im halfway new to the home theater stuff, and its a lot to grasp so I am asking for help on the decision. I want a sub that will sound good all way around but mainly want the deep. I want it to make the room feel like the thunder is real and not just generic thunder in a movie. I was thinking about tracking down a used HSU VTF-15h but then started reading about the diy setups.

My room is open, its about 30' long and 20' wide and a cathedral type ceiling that at peak is approx 15' high. And the room is open to the kitchen with just a 4' bar seperating them, and the kitchen is normal 8' celings approx 8'x15'

I am running a pioneer elite vsx-60 reciever so I have the option of 2 sub outputs on the back.

I am restricted on box size somewhat. Has to be equal and act as a coffee table or smaller.

And budget wise, I haven't decided yet. Obviously I want the best bang for the buck I can get.

Can you guys please lead me in the right direction and thank you.
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post #2 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

Hi everybody, long time listener, first time caller. Im halfway new to the home theater stuff, and its a lot to grasp so I am asking for help on the decision. I want a sub that will sound good all way around but mainly want the deep. I want it to make the room feel like the thunder is real and not just generic thunder in a movie. I was thinking about tracking down a used HSU VTF-15h but then started reading about the diy setups.

My room is open, its about 30' long and 20' wide and a cathedral type ceiling that at peak is approx 15' high. And the room is open to the kitchen with just a 4' bar seperating them, and the kitchen is normal 8' celings approx 8'x15'

I am running a pioneer elite vsx-60 reciever so I have the option of 2 sub outputs on the back.

I am restricted on box size somewhat. Has to be equal and act as a coffee table or smaller.

And budget wise, I haven't decided yet. Obviously I want the best bang for the buck I can get.

Can you guys please lead me in the right direction and thank you.

Dual opposed Dayton HO-18's work good for coffee tables, keeps the coffee from falling off the table and will give you lots of output for a given space.
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post #3 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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What amp would be recommended, and ported or sealed? Should I try to build a box or buy one of these flat pack deals I've seen?
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post #4 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 01:13 PM
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The EP4000 or iNuke 3000 with or without DSP is the two most popular. They are noisy but but the fan can be swapped for a quieter one. If you have the skills and tools to build your own box then go for it, it will take some time to build compared to a flat pack.

 

Ported enclosures are usually bigger than sealed to get the most spl at tuning.

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post #5 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought I read somewhere that ported boxes and sealed boxes work different depending on if you have an enclosed room or an open room.
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post #6 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

I thought I read somewhere that ported boxes and sealed boxes work different depending on if you have an enclosed room or an open room.
Not exactly. The cabin gain you get with a smaller well sealed room will help make up for the lower sensitivity of a sealed sub in the low end. With a larger and/or not well sealed room the added sensitivity of a ported sub helps, but usually at the cost of a larger cabinet.

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post #7 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Could I hit earthshaking lows with a sealed box in an open room? And does anybody make a flat pack for this setup?
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post #8 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

Could I hit earthshaking lows with a sealed box in an open room? And does anybody make a flat pack for this setup?

 

You have a pretty big room so you're going to need lots of big drivers and power or have the subs close to your listening position. I think erich is planning to release a dual opposed sealed enclosure for 18" drivers.

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post #9 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

Could I hit earthshaking lows with a sealed box in an open room?
Just one? No.

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post #10 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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So I guess I am still wondering what I need, within reason. I can't find a flat pack for dual opposed 18s and apparently sealed won't get me the shake I'm after, and I don't know much about the port jobs, I'm nt against them I just don't know how to design one. Approximately what would outer dimensions of that opposedported box be?
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post #11 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 03:58 AM
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The smallest I would go for a ported Dayton 18 HO would be 8 cu ft. You're probably looking at an enclosure that roughly measures 24 x 24 x 36" and that is only for one driver. Double that size if you want to add two drivers to one enclosure (24x24x72").

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post #12 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 04:02 AM
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Dimensions of a ported box vary greatly and depend on what driver(s) you're using (and the Theile/Small parameters of it/them), what the tuning point you are aiming for is, whether you're going to stuff it...

You can play with modelling drivers using WinISD, available from HomeTheaterShack - that can give you a better idea of the internal sizes needed, which you can then translate to external dimensions that take into account box material width, space lost inside from internal bracing and the driver displacement...

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post #13 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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So do we agree that dual opposed dayton 18s would be the sub I want to build around? Will 2 seperate ported 18s give me the deep deep shake? Or if not would a dual opposed ported setup get me this? I am after the quality bass you feel not hear. What should I tune it to for what I am after?
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post #14 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 06:16 AM
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If you are restricted to coffee table size, I'm not sure you will be able to build a ported box tuned to much below 20Hz, but that's only gut feeling as I'm no expert.

If you can build one or two coffee tables with dual opposed subs with high power handling in them, in a sealed arrangement, the high power handling will enable you to overcome the small-ish sealed box size and produce the sub-20Hz lows that you feel rather than hear.
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post #15 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 09:41 AM
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Are there any concerns about wire gauge when using these big amps? If say a sub is across the room from the amp and 40' of wire is run through the walls/ceiling? Sorry if this is a noob question, I just never see the issue discussed. Seems like a too small wire would get hot.
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post #16 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 10:51 AM
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post #17 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 11:19 AM
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Thanks. So it's not a function of amp power at all, as long as you don't change the impedance of the system too much.
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post #18 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay the dayton 18" says 3 cu ft for sealed. So that would make it 6 ft for a dual opposed setup sealed right? If so could I make an end table that's 24"x24"x18" roughly and obviously inside of the box measurement. With a down firing and an upfiring? And the inuke3000 will power both? Also why such a weight difference between the two suggested amps? Will one maybe two of these setups give me what I'm after?
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post #19 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 01:03 PM
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They recommend 3cu ft but its a little small for that driver. Going with a bigger enclosure will raise the low end and lower the QTC. I don't think two 18's is going to give you what you're after, sure they will add some low freq to your system but earth shaking...no.

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post #20 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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So I am assuming what I am after is impossible.
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post #21 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

So I am assuming what I am after is impossible.

 

With your size restrictions, I think so. You could place the subs right next to you and that would help a lot but then they might sound localized because they are so close.

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post #22 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 01:35 PM
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If you're striving for belly jiggling, but still want small enclosures, you may be best off making a good sub that will fill the room with good sound, and then just bolting some tactile transducers onto your seating to provide the jiggle.

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post #23 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

So I am assuming what I am after is impossible.

It sounds like you want a huge amount of deep bass from a small box with minimal power.... And probably within a modest budget.. This what everybody wants, unfortunately bass reproduction is a series of compromises.
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post #24 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 03:45 PM
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Going from a Bose subwoofer to Quad DO HO-18's and dual nuDSP3k's will be a HUGE increase, in both sound quality and pressure.
So it depends, on what you're acclimatized to...

How much of a basshead are you really?

How about you start with half of that, and build the other half (if needed).

and if that's still not enough, double it again.
Eventually one of two things will happen: your ears will give out, or your wallet will; or both wink.gif
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post #25 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Well that's what I was planning, if people would agree on a direction for me like the dual opposed 18s then I would build one and hen if needed anoher. But apparently that setup won't work. And I feel its a little offensive to pull the snob card on the budget. I have not said my budget and have not turned down an suggestions because of price. All I'm after is true experienced guidance and suggestions.
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post #26 of 32 Old 08-21-2013, 06:56 PM
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O.k.
I have a room 40' x 17.5' x 9' Which I is probably less footage then your situation. Also opens up to kitchen and dining room.

The two 250W rms 12" TL type sub woofers in my deftech towers did not provide enough low bass.

I added a third 12" sub tuned to 30hz that added very deep bass. This sub enclosure of my own design uses a 300W RMS plate amps.

Consider multiple subs with diameter of at least 12" or more since buying new. place in optimized spots using what is called the sub crawl method.

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post #27 of 32 Old 08-22-2013, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post

O.k.
I have a room 40' x 17.5' x 9' Which I is probably less footage then your situation. Also opens up to kitchen and dining room.

The two 250W rms 12" TL type sub woofers in my deftech towers did not provide enough low bass.

I added a third 12" sub tuned to 30hz that added very deep bass. This sub enclosure of my own design uses a 300W RMS plate amps.

Consider multiple subs with diameter of at least 12" or more since buying new. place in optimized spots using what is called the sub crawl method.
30Hz is very deep bass??
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post #28 of 32 Old 08-22-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03twotonehd View Post

I have not said my budget and have not turned down any suggestions because of price.

But if you give us your budget, then we can make an informed decision.

My current (and most favorite) subwoofer system is quad TC LMS-18's each a 8cuft sealed box, powered by a Crown iTech.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-666
http://www.pssl.com/Crown-IT12000HD-HD-I-Tech-Series-Power-Amplifier

There is nothing that shakes the ground better, open space or not.
That's what I would truly recommend you build.

If would definitely be better than the Dayton's and nuDSP.

What do you mean by "earthquaking shake", that's not a measurable term.
Do you own an SPL meter?
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post #29 of 32 Old 08-22-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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BassThatHz I looked at your room build the other day and give you kudos. I am nowhere near your level of game. And I will admit that your recommended items are above my pay grade. My budget is undecided as of now. Its like Potter Stewart said, I can't describe it but I know it when I see it. And the crowns are clearly out for me. I'm not trying to be cheap so don't take this out of context, but I want the most for the best price that fits my situation. And no I do not own an spl meter, like I said I'm halfway new to this home audio stuff, I just purchased new house in june and didn't expect to jump into stereo so fast but now all I'm lacking is sub/subs. Where can I get a meter? Im expecting probably in the end a couple thousand, but hopefully can come up with something that works well for me for lower and just keep adding as I go. If something like the dual dayton 18s in a 6-8ft box would start to work decently for now then I would be more than happy to slap that together now. Would that be better than the HSU VTF-15h?
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post #30 of 32 Old 08-22-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
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30Hz is very deep bass??

Good point to claify. My enclosure is a tranmission line so the length is tuned to match the natural reaonance of the woofer. But its not a hard cut off like a ported box.

30hz is still very deep bass in my book. 20hz is the therotical lower bound for 'audiable' I can measure good volume begining at 13hz but that's with a basic spl meter.

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