DIY Subs... Where is the mid-bass? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I have built two DIY subs... A Dayton RSS390HO (1000 watts)and a Dayton RSS315HF (500watts), both in sealed enclosures (Qtc of 0.7)... They replaced two Polk PSW650 vented subs with dual 10" drivers. The Polks delivered a lot of bass in the 35-50Hz range but bass was non-existent below 30Hz. The bass was very tight and was very loud, considering it only had a 250-watt amp. After building my two Daytons, there was a notable increase of bass below 30Hz, but for some reason, the mid-bass seems lacking. I have the crossover frequency set as high as it can go (~200Hz). Rerunning the auto EQ on my AVR did not make a diference.

Watching movies like Battle: Los Angeles or Super 8, I can get a lot of really low bass but it sounds like the bass above 40Hz is lacking (there is a lot of rumbling but no slam so to speak). To get the same sort of volume of mid-bass like the Polk sends the sub amps into near clipping (the lights start to turn from green to red) or the driver maxes out of excursion.

I took the RSS390HO out of the system and replaced it temporarily with a DefTech SC6000. It restored the mid-bass and some of the low-bass. What am I missing or doing wrong?

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post #2 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 01:31 PM
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Have you taken a freq response of the old and new subs to see the difference? The old sub could have a peak in the freq response that you liked and with the new sub that peak is gone.

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post #3 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 01:35 PM
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Could be a phase issue with the HO as well.
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, there is no way for me to evaluate the frequency response. The two new subs were located in the same position where the two Polks were so the overall balance should be the same. Phase adjustments did not have any noticeable audio differences.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #5 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

Unfortunately, there is no way for me to evaluate the frequency response. The two new subs were located in the same position where the two Polks were so the overall balance should be the same. Phase adjustments did not have any noticeable audio differences.

Could be positioning, try them in a new spot?
I was going to say phase as well but it seems you have already tried that.
I don't see how the Polk subs could compare to the Dayton's at ANY frequency, definitely strange.
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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You would think so... The Def Tech is currently sitting where the 15" sub was and it definitely has more bass... The DefTech only has a 9" driver with two 10" passive drivers. I tried a trick someone recommended... I placed the sub where I normally sit and walked around the room. I placed the sub where the bass sounds the most pronounced, ensuring it is not in a dead spot. That did not help as well.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #7 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 04:45 PM
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If you have a Audyssey mic you can use that to measure the response. All you need is a laptop or desktop with a mic input.
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post #8 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 05:11 PM
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Turn off all of the EQ settings on your AVR then start from scratch.
This could very well be because of what you are using to power the subs, are you sure the amps are getting enough signal?

Commercial subs generally have no problem reaching full power from the sub out from your receiver but certain plate amps / pro amps tend to need more signal to reach full power.
What are you using to power said subs?
For example I have an Inuke3000 powering a sealed 18", without my AVR's trim setting boosted to 9-12db, my Pioneer receiver does not have enough signal to light the amp up at all.

This is all I can think of that you haven't tried, seeing as there should be no way the Daytons aren't stomping the Def Tech.
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post #9 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 05:28 PM
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What amps and receiver?
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I am using a new Pioneer SC-67 receiver which has dual sub outputs... The HO sub is powered by the Dayton SPA-1000 and the HF sub is powered by the SPA-500 sub amps...

I know that the Pioneer MCCAC does NOT EQ the subs... But that did not matter when I had the Polks running...

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post #11 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 05:55 PM
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Most smaller / budget subwoofer has a hump in the mid bass region as it makes the subwoofer sound "better" than the sub that can really dig deep.

You can add your older subwoofer to the Daytons, You can experiment by reducing the enclosure size of the old sub by putting something inside like sand bags to reduce the deep bass while retaining the mid bass... worth a try
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post #12 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 06:04 PM
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If that the case you should have enough voltage. We need graph tho figure out why. You room gain may have too much on the low end + a dip somewhere.
I have a sc65 and it has plenty of output to clip my 3000dsp.
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post #13 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 06:16 PM
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I would check all the connections given that the amps may need more signal input .

If all checks out then you may just be dealing with the 'water bed' effect. Ie sealed sub that has high output at 20hz won't be super efficent at 80hz or vice versa.

I think many with seal subs and high power rely on heavy EQing to get acceptable in room response. Kind of the brut force method if you will. You mentioned that your AVR does not EQ the subs.

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post #14 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 06:27 PM
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Also consider that the Polk and Deftech subs are going to have a lot of harmonic distortion, whereas the Daytons should be a lot cleaner. Don't mistaken harmonic distortion for mid bass. Distortion can make a sub sound louder than it's supposed to be.
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post #15 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I can easily drive the Daytons into clipping so the LFE does have enough signal coming in... The Dayton amps are set with zero boost (the suggested setting from forums are +6dB at 25Hz, but i find that to be way to heavy on the bottom end). I guess i will have to get a SPL meter to figure things out...

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post #16 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 07:42 PM
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sealed enclosures just don't make as much noise as ported enclosures or passive radiator such as the supercube.

what you need is simply MORE SPL!

of course, a modal suckout or integration problem with the mains could be a factor, but since you have other subs to compare, it really seems to me what you are describing is simply insufficient uncompressed raw output.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #17 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 08:01 PM
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Did you make sure te EQ on the Dayton amp is set to 0 gain. That amp is famous for having a out of the box -12 dBs at 50hz setting on the PEQ. Make sure it is off or at 0 dBs.
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post #18 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 08:03 PM
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I am sorry guys but a ported 10 will not touch the Midbass of a sealed ho 18. Something else is wrong, make sure PEQ gain is at 0. It is not where you would think, all the way to the left like on an amp is -12 dBs or so.
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post #19 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 08:05 PM
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mk, the 390 is a 15", 315 is a 12". 18" is the 460.

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post #20 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 08:24 PM
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Still should be more, the port helps more near the tune unless these were 50hz tuned ported subs.
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post #21 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 10:08 PM
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These small ported subs are very punchy in the mid-bass, not accurate but punchy which gets peoples attention. I recently got a Paradigm 10" ported sub in a trade + cash for some speakers that's supposed to be for my brother. When we tested it in my system the mid-bass was very pronounced and I could see why people might prefer this, more pronounced then my other subs.
Accurate bass is very hard for people to get used to, try adding a 6db wide boost in the 45hz range and see if the mid-bass is back were you like it, it won't be flat but as long as you like it who cares.

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post #22 of 28 Old 08-21-2013, 10:49 PM
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Without graphing, you're taking shots in the dark. Maybe you liked the distorted sound from the non diy subs?
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post #23 of 28 Old 08-22-2013, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

The Polks delivered a lot of bass in the 35-50Hz range but bass was non-existent below 30Hz....I can get a lot of really low bass but it sounds like the bass above 40Hz is lacking
When you say that, how do you know, when you also say this:
Quote:
Unfortunately, there is no way for me to evaluate the frequency response.
confused.gif

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post #24 of 28 Old 08-22-2013, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

When you say that, how do you know, when you also say this:
confused.gif

Your Yoda avatar rings so much truth!

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #25 of 28 Old 08-22-2013, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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The Polks were reviewed in several magazines... They all stated that the bass response tapered down below 30-35Hz (depending on room placement). The bass boost on the sub amps are set to 0 dB. There are three controls on the amp... Gain, frequency of the boost and bandwidth of the boost...

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post #26 of 28 Old 08-23-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

I have built two DIY subs... A Dayton RSS390HO (1000 watts)and a Dayton RSS315HF (500watts).

To get the same sort of volume of mid-bass like the Polk sends the sub amps into near clipping (the lights start to turn from green to red) or the driver maxes out of excursion.

I took the RSS390HO out of the system and replaced it temporarily with a DefTech SC6000. It restored the mid-bass and some of the low-bass. What am I missing or doing wrong?

The supercube 6000 is 3 times the wattage. 500w vs 1500w

In order for something to be louder either: the cone must be bigger, or it must have more excursion.
Is the cone on the supercube larger than the HF-15 or something?
If it's not, and it's also not moving further, then it is physically impossible for it to generate more SPL than the HF-15.

What SPL are you getting? Do you have an SPL meter?

Sounds like you need more wattage to the HF with the >45hz boosted, or simply MORE subwoofers.
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post #27 of 28 Old 08-23-2013, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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The DA RSS390HO (15") has a 1,000 watt amp on it. While the SC6000 does have a 1500 watt amp, the sub driver is only 9".

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-23-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

The Polks were reviewed in several magazines... They all stated that the bass response tapered down below 30-35Hz (depending on room placement). The bass boost on the sub amps are set to 0 dB. There are three controls on the amp... Gain, frequency of the boost and bandwidth of the boost...

30hz and up is more like a woofer than a true SUBwoofer around here. The polk sub is designed to put out most of it's output above 30hz so it is not surprising to me that it is punchier in the mid-bass, that's what they designed it to do. If you want the same kind of mid-bass then build a ported enclosure for one of your Dayton drivers tuned to 30hz with a properly applied HPF, then you can compare apples to apples. There are always compromises to most subwoofer designs unless you go balls out.

Still a boost in the 45hz range will help, you will run out of some headroom though.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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