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post #1 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to ask this question as sort of a general starting point for those of us who haven't experienced a subM, jtr cap, OS,or DIY subs.

Most of the "notable"bass threads on this forum are about applications of 8,16,20 drivers.
And, although these threads offer a wealth of information which we all appreciate. They seem to be geared for a " special" kind of individual seeking skull crushing, face punching, foundation busting, seismic event inducing, tiny black hole creating bass.eek.gifeek.gif

I am here to speak up for those of us who don't necessarily want to ask our wives to put on a hard hat and g-suit to go watch When Harry met Sally. I would like to know how much bass does the average dedicated home theater need to produce high quality bass. And to get more specific.

I have a approx 5500cf room. Not open to any other room of the house. Generally speaking as a starting point. How many of the following drivers would be required to get great bass. Bass where nothing is lacking in any possible way but where the term ridiculous could not be used to describe any of it either.

Si/ ho 18's

Uxl - 18.

Lms ultra 5400

As an aside I have been thinking thus far for 4 si/ho's for my room. Or 2 Lms ultra. And I know I can always add more but with 5500 cubes is this a good starting point?

Thanks,

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post #2 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 10:56 AM
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Some studies I have read state that four encloseures placed around the room tends to have the best chance to provide smooth frequecy reaponse. Compensate for room peaks and nulls.

This is more or less independent of the size of speaker and type of enclosure.

Next is the quality and quantity of sound. Convetional wisdow is the biggest speaker in a correct enclosure will ample power. By that I mean it is a mistake to put the biggest speak in a box that will limit it's output.

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post #3 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 10:58 AM
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When I was reading your post, somewhere in the middle I was thinking you would eventually be asking "Which among these, 10 inch subs would be ok ?" then follow it up with "Maybe convince the wife that we need a 12 inch subwoofer". You know what ? You belong to the 2 percent group smile.gif

Btw.. your off to a good start, go with the LMS 5400 smile.gif
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post #4 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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You know what ? You belong to the 2 percent group smile.gif



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!eek.gif

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post #5 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 11:13 AM
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Read this... the whole thing:

http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Maybe the smartest application of subs yet.
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post #6 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbomb View Post

Read this... the whole thing:

http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Maybe the smartest application of subs yet.

Good read especally since i am in the three sub camp

Gaugster
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post #7 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MALIX View Post

Si/ ho 18's

Uxl - 18.

Lms ultra 5400

As an aside I have been thinking thus far for 4 si/ho's for my room. Or 2 Lms ultra. And I know I can always add more but with 5500 cubes is this a good starting point?

For a room that size, I wouldn't go less than a quad of HO-18's.
30% of people would want more than dual; but only 5% would want more than quad.

That would be just enough to keep most-people happy.

My room is 3200cubes and I run quad LMS-18's, quad Dayton 18's, and dual Mal 21's; and I'm in the process of adding another 13 15's. But something tells me that I will always want more... (like until it becomes painful) hehe redface.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #8 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MALIX View Post

I wanted to ask this question as sort of a general starting point for those of us who haven't experienced a subM, jtr cap, OS,or DIY subs.

Most of the "notable"bass threads on this forum are about applications of 8,16,20 drivers.
And, although these threads offer a wealth of information which we all appreciate. They seem to be geared for a " special" kind of individual seeking skull crushing, face punching, foundation busting, seismic event inducing, tiny black hole creating bass.eek.gifeek.gif

I am here to speak up for those of us who don't necessarily want to ask our wives to put on a hard hat and g-suit to go watch When Harry met Sally. I would like to know how much bass does the average dedicated home theater need to produce high quality bass. And to get more specific.

I have a approx 5500cf room. Not open to any other room of the house. Generally speaking as a starting point. How many of the following drivers would be required to get great bass. Bass where nothing is lacking in any possible way but where the term ridiculous could not be used to describe any of it either.

Si/ ho 18's

Uxl - 18.

Lms ultra 5400

As an aside I have been thinking thus far for 4 si/ho's for my room. Or 2 Lms ultra. And I know I can always add more but with 5500 cubes is this a good starting point?

Thanks,

Reasonable question and I think you are on the right track. Either of those solutions will give you bass that meets your stated criteria (although "great bass" is highly subjective) and, you can always add more.

HToM

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post #9 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 01:59 PM
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Interesting topic. I personally have 4x12 sealed and find it to be a tad lacking at time. I recently bought 2 more. But I think I'm pressing into the 2% range. I really think 3x12 in ported tuned to 20hz will satisfy the 98%. Giving up the bottom 2 octaves is one of the most economical compromises we can make. Which is why so many commercial subs are ported. I went sealed because I'm pushing that 2% (albeit more like at the 97.9% range).

I say 3 to smooth out the room modes and because the output from three will ensure nobody hears much compression. This should even do close to reference. I say ported because it'll take way to much sub capability for the 98% to make sub-20hz output useful at all, so port the thing and get better output for less money. I say 12" because they're a little more economical and 15" requires a very large box if ported. The 3x12 should do it for most.
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post #10 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Reasonable question and I think you are on the right track. Either of those solutions will give you bass that meets your stated criteria (although "great bass" is highly subjective) and, you can always add more.

RMK, don't see you often in this section. smile.gif
Welcome to the bass crazies. smile.gif

For the OP'er I have three 18's and two 12's. I am adding a couple more 18's, but I am adding them for upper bass. Bass between 60hz and 120hz. I am using a couple high sensitivity 18's, TD18H+ drivers. These are capable of hitting 126bd max, using 1,000 watts.

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post #11 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

RMK, don't see you often in this section. smile.gif
Welcome to the bass crazies. smile.gif

For the OP'er I have three 18's and two 12's. I am adding a couple more 18's, but I am adding them for upper bass. Bass between 60hz and 120hz. I am using a couple high sensitivity 18's, TD18H+ drivers. These are capable of hitting 126bd max, using 1,000 watts.

After thinking about this I would say it seems like may be I am in the 75% to 95% bracket. I want good bass but dont need to chase that last five percent and find my self facing the diminishing returns of obtaining it. Can you tell me what size is your room and what do you think most of us in the 75 to 95% bracket would be happy with.. Would it be just the 3 18's?? or the whole kit and kaboodle of 18s/12s and the new 60 to 120hz 18syou are working on ??


And as another general question how much do you guys think the 2 Lms ultras would have to be fed to match the output levels of 4 si/ho 18s?

And thanks so far for everyone's input.. this is good stuff so far..

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post #12 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 07:01 PM
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Lets say you have four SI 18s each in 4cu ft sealed enclosures with 2400w. The drivers are rated at 600w rms each so I went with that as my max power input. Two TC Sounds 18's in 4cu ft sealed enclosure each, they would need to be feed 3000w each (6000w total) to match the four SI 18s.

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post #13 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 08:43 PM
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Well i am not a 2%er, but I think you forget to ask an important question. Even if you have a big room, you need to take into consideration how far you will be sitting from the subwoofers and also how many seats you need to cover with quality bass. Say for instance you only need to cover two seats located 10-12´ from the screen. In that case a single ported 15" or two 12" tuned to 20Hz or a little bit higher might be bore than enough for both you and the other 98% of us. On the other hand, If the room is packed with seats and you want good bass response and low seat to seat variance a bigger and more complex system is called for.
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post #14 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

Well i am not a 2%er, but I think you forget to ask an important question. Even if you have a big room, you need to take into consideration how far you will be sitting from the subwoofers and also how many seats you need to cover with quality bass. Say for instance you only need to cover two seats located 10-12´ from the screen. In that case a single ported 15" or two 12" tuned to 20Hz or a little bit higher might be bore than enough for both you and the other 98% of us. On the other hand, If the room is packed with seats and you want good bass response and low seat to seat variance a bigger and more complex system is called for.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's how subs work. Unless you are nearfield to the subs, seating distance from the screen has no bearing on subwoofer performance. Room size is the largest determining factor when it comes to subwoofer performance. Unlike satellite speakers, the subwoofer system has to pressurize the entire room in order for the person to hear/feel it. My guess is that a single ported 15" would have trouble in that big of a space unless it was placed right next to the MLP. A horn loaded 15" driver in an enclosure the size of a refrigerator might have a chance, but runs the risk of having peaks and nulls that may be difficult to deal with not to mention having an enclosure that size would be restrictive to most.

MALIX,

If it were me and those were my choices, I'd go with four 18" SIs or four 18" Dayton HOs. Sealed is my preference, but if you don't need to plumb the depths of ULF then ported will give you more output for your room. Four of these would be just a tad more than just one of the LMS Ultras. Not only that, but you'll need to spend less on amplifiers to power them. The LMS needs a lot of power to be used to its full potential when put in a small sealed box. If money was no object, then I would start with the two LMS Ultras and add another two later on. If you just want to do this once, then I'd go with the four SIs (cheapest option) or the Dayton HOs. Either of the four should give you the smoothest FR response over a larger area than two LMS Ultras.
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post #15 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 11:04 PM
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2 15" ported 16hz is all you need to be told to turn down the volume. It will satisfy 90% of the people out there. Jbl w15gti, ae av15h. , or maybe the new Dayton 15mk. Now if you're chasing pressurization than you in the last 5% because its a different feel of bass that just put a smile in your face to experience it. It not like going to a club, it like the ground is falling apart.
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post #16 of 124 Old 08-25-2013, 11:51 PM
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I know many people say that position from the subwoofer might not be the factor and talk about pressurization. But I have to say (subjectivly) that I think that the distance and position of sitting from the subwoofer counts. Dont forget that the subwoofer generated several frequencies from and below 90 Hz maybe if set at 80 Hz depending on the filter used (some of this might be felt depending on the distance of sitting). Subjectivly as well, when I am standing in the room with my (50 % of the people) 10 inch subwoofer in a 4200 cubic feet + room, the bass feeling is different if when I am sitting on the couch next to the subwoofer. Room acoustics play a role as well. now i am thinking of 1 dayton HO 18 sealed, to be able to jump aboe the 80% of the people smile.gif and that will cost me around 1000 USD for craftmanship, shipping, amp, etc... it is an "investment" for the above 98% of the people, so i am naming it an investment. For the below 50%, it is a waste of money maybe, and they would rather travel somewhere smile.gif
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post #17 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 12:03 AM
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instead of focusing on the number and size of subwoofers, attention to the sound pressure level, the frequency range that is targeted, the size of the room, and such might be a betting jumping off point.

as tux mentioned, a very reasonable target would be full reference with redirected bass from 20hz or so up. get that part right and most folks would be super happy.

"As an aside I have been thinking thus far for 4 si/ho's for my room." "Or 2 Lms ultra." [Or 2 UXLs]

in ported cabs tuned to 17-20hz or so, properly powered, and properly placed/eq'd, that should get you to the target just mentioned with some running room to spare.

but I wouldn't call that a 98% system. that is a deep 99th percentile system.

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post #18 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 06:01 AM
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I can relate.

We never watch a movie (much less play music) at the levels that some people here are pressing. Even just to "show off" I'd never have that desire.

In any case, I would suggest you take a look at how loud you actually run your system. Then decide on a course of action. If you look at a response curve for a given speaker in a sealed cabinet, you'll notice that what may look like rather poor extension at "high" levels (105+dB) translates to decent extension at the levels you actually listen at. Personally, our family usually watch most movies at about 15dB down from reference, with the sub set about 5 dB down from that. If it's just me by myself, I may watch a flick at about 10dB down. That means peaks coming in at about 85dB to 90dB. In this instance, a given speaker in a given sealed enclosure may give an f3 of up to even 50hz. However, the (relatively) flat slope of the falloff in extension means that the same speaker may be capable of reaching 20hz without losing any output at the lower 85dB to 90dB levels. This is just one example.

In any case, if nothing else, I would suggest starting small. 1 or 2 subs to see what you get. Add more only after you can identify why it is that you're needing an additional one.

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post #19 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 06:26 AM
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Distance does matter. There's varying views about "pressurization" that don't need stirring up again in this thread, but even so, both sides of that argument would agree there's no pressurization from about 30hz and up at least. Most would say even lower. The reason why it might feel like pressurization is happening is when you experience a room mode, especially one at around 40hz. It can really stir your guts and feel like pressure.
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post #20 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 06:29 AM
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And by the way MALIX, you're in the 99%. How many people, even on AVS forum think there 10" ported Klipsch crushes it? Probably about 85% of people. The last 13% think dual 12s are awesome. It might even be less than that. 3 12s covers the 98%, when you start talking 4 18s your in another world.
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post #21 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

And by the way MALIX, you're in the 99%. How many people, even on AVS forum think there 10" ported Klipsch crushes it? Probably about 85% of people. The last 13% think dual 12s are awesome. It might even be less than that. 3 12s covers the 98%, when you start talking 4 18s your in another world.

This is what i have been trying to get at. thanks for you input.

I am coming into this after 10 years of wanting a real home theater... and now I have the room. The most I have ever run was one RBH10-10 SEP which is a dual 10 inch ported cab with 400 watts power. But the last time I ran that sub was about four years ago in a very small house. At this point I have had my real speakers boxed up for four years and am listening to a little passive 10 inch sub from a cheapie energy take 5 system (and I have already broken it. the poor little guy). Now jumping to a very large room (at least by my standards) I dont want to either under or over power it with bass ( and I know its subjective) But your comment above makes me think maybe 2 HO/si well powered and possibly still using my dual 10 inch sub as a third could get me there (or at least be a good starting off point.) I know eventually the older sub will go but for now maybe some funds could be saved for other stuff.. ( we all know building a room adds up)

But then there's the guy whose name is BASS THAT HERTZ telling me a quad is minimal.... So I think its gonna fall somewhere between 2 and four 18's and I will be happy with that.

This has all given lots of f good insight on this.. you guys rule.

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post #22 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

a very reasonable target would be full reference with redirected bass from 20hz or so up. get that part right and most folks would be super happy.

I agree 100%. Not many people get to hear a solid 20hz experience - which is more than plenty for my purposes.
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post #23 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 09:47 AM
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While I agree with your thinking about the 2 HO/Si's to a point, I think you have such a large room to fill that you may find that wanting. I have 2 SIs in my room, but that's less than 1500 cubes.
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post #24 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Distance does matter. There's varying views about "pressurization" that don't need stirring up again in this thread, but even so, both sides of that argument would agree there's no pressurization from about 30hz and up at least. Most would say even lower. The reason why it might feel like pressurization is happening is when you experience a room mode, especially one at around 40hz. It can really stir your guts and feel like pressure.

Thanks for the clarification and correction.
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post #25 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

While I agree with your thinking about the 2 HO/Si's to a point, I think you have such a large room to fill that you may find that wanting. I have 2 SIs in my room, but that's less than 1500 cubes.

I hear you.

Could be that within a week or two of listening in the completed room could prompt the purchasee of the 2nd pair... or if as the room progresses I find a little extra money is available I'll just order the 4 up front...

The great thing is this thread really has helped me zero in on the range of appropriate driver quantities.. Its a good start..

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post #26 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 11:15 AM
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If you're still in the planning stages for room construction and layout, you've come to the right place. I don't have direct experience with home theater room construction, but I think these general points will help your bass experience:

That extra drywall and damping + green glue (or whatever) will make an enormous difference.

Then you'll want to consider seating arrangements, projector & screen (acoustically transparent? yes!), bass traps, etc. Most of the room layout, screen, and traps seem like they can be done DIY for fairly cheap.

Don't waste your time with the 10" sub. It simply won't add anything except for distortion at the levels you'll be listening at in this big room.

Use bossobass's rough equation, 0.01 liters of driver displacement per cubic foot of space, to figure out how much displacement you need, from this post in another room construction thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1477487/if-you-needed-4-hz-in-room-but-could-pick-the-room-how-would-you#post_23586323. You may decide to go slightly under that, since you don't think you want earth-shattering levels yet. I'm gonna say that 4x UXL-18 should be your starting point, but this of course is for sealed subs, not ported as others have recommended.

Also consider bossobass's sage advice that no amount of subwoofage + wattage matters if you're not feeding them appropriate signal levels. You need to have equipment that, cumulatively, does not introduce too much rolloff of the signal levels encoded in the playback media. I suppose, if you're only looking for 20Hz performance from ported boxes, this is a mostly moot point. But, if you want the full bandwidth (and you eventually will, almost definitely), you should design the system with signal chain rolloff considerations in mind.

Regardless of the percentile you're shooting for, you're eventually gonna want those additional octaves and headroom afforded by an extremely capable sealed system in your large theater. Might as well plan for it now. Plus, it's not as if it costs that much in the grand scheme of things. For a nearly world-class setup, you're probably looking at somewhere from $3000-4000, all-in, for 4 UXL-18 subs + cabinets + REW measurement gear + miniDSP + amp(s) if you DIY.
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post #27 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MALIX View Post

I hear you.

Could be that within a week or two of listening in the completed room could prompt the purchasee of the 2nd pair... or if as the room progresses I find a little extra money is available I'll just order the 4 up front...

The great thing is this thread really has helped me zero in on the range of appropriate driver quantities.. Its a good start..

I had one 18" Avalanche which is the equiv of a UXL or two HO/Si's in a 3000cuft room and it was ridiculous. Every single friend of mine thought it was insane and much louder then any movie theater they'd ever been too. It even rattled loose a couple in ceiling light bulbs - on a multiple occasions. I had to re-enforce doors in my basement because they would violently shake and pressurize too much. I listen to movies at reference/near reference levels...

That being said I added another 18" to help even the bass response out and not worry about over driving my single sub.

And people think I'm crazy and need counseling...
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post #28 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 01:27 PM
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You won't need and don't want your old sub playing (more often than not).

You can start with just one and work your way up until happy, but plan for quads for a room that size; also many place offer discounts if you buy larger quantities, you could save $100 or more.

Going from one 10" to quad 18" will fix your upgraditis for a very very long time.

How the room will react to the bass will change depending on seating and placement and room dimensions and number of subs, this is normal (unless you happen to luck out).
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post #29 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 02:28 PM
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After thinking about this I would say it seems like may be I am in the 75% to 95% bracket. I want good bass but dont need to chase that last five percent and find my self facing the diminishing returns of obtaining it. Can you tell me what size is your room and what do you think most of us in the 75 to 95% bracket would be happy with.. Would it be just the 3 18's?? or the whole kit and kaboodle of 18s/12s and the new 60 to 120hz 18syou are working on ??


And as another general question how much do you guys think the 2 Lms ultras would have to be fed to match the output levels of 4 si/ho 18s?

And thanks so far for everyone's input.. this is good stuff so far..

My room is 11.5' x 13.5' x 8', but open to another room that is 17' x 15' x 8'. Most (95%) people would be satisfied with 3-18's.

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post #30 of 124 Old 08-26-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

I'm gonna say that 4x UXL-18 should be your starting point, but this of course is for sealed subs, not ported as others have recommended.

this is probably gonna sound pretty noobie but why everybody in this thread prefers sealed boxes?
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