If you had $5000 to spend on subs and speakers what would you do ? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 237 Old 06-06-2014, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to pop one open this weekend and look at the guts. I've got a pm thread with a couple folk that wanted to see the internals...I'll share pics here or PM anyone interested.

Do a thread smile.gif

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post #182 of 237 Old 06-08-2014, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm going to pop one open this weekend and look at the guts. I've got a pm thread with a couple folk that wanted to see the internals...I'll share pics here or PM anyone interested.

Do a thread smile.gif

Done

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1535032/mackie-c200-under-the-hood

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post #183 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Those do look like a steal for that price... but I am not sure they would best something like a FUSION 12 which easily falls into the price range of a total system for $5000 ($2000 for bass, $3000 for speakers).

Right now I am leaning towards something like a FUSION 12 LCR, FUSION 8 or VOLT for surrounds (dual sides, + back, possibly do the height or wides) and perhaps (8) 18" sealed drivers - something high value like SI18 or like.

I'll probably add a few more subs each year after, I figure I will go sealed because it will be easier to keep adding. I don't have any WAF factors or space concerns, my space is huge and performance is a priority over looks.
t

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post #184 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Those do look like a steal for that price... but I am not sure they would best something like a FUSION 12 which easily falls into the price range of a total system for $5000 ($2000 for bass, $3000 for speakers).

Right now I am leaning towards something like a FUSION 12 LCR, FUSION 8 or VOLT for surrounds (dual sides, + back, possibly do the height or wides) and perhaps (8) 18" sealed drivers - something high value like SI18 or like.

I'll probably add a few more subs each year after, I figure I will go sealed because it will be easier to keep adding. I don't have any WAF factors or space concerns, my space is huge and performance is a priority over looks.
t

With a huge space like you have to work with, you can just about hide every sub and speaker with false walls. I love the incognito look with great performance! People wonder where all the sound and bass comes from.

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post #185 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

With a huge space like you have to work with, you can just about hide every sub and speaker with false walls. I love the incognito look with great performance! People wonder where all the sound and bass comes from.

That is the plan biggrin.gif

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post #186 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 05:11 PM
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I can't wait to see you start it! When did you say you were going to start it again?

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post #187 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Those do look like a steal for that price... but I am not sure they would best something like a FUSION 12 which easily falls into the price range of a total system for $5000 ($2000 for bass, $3000 for speakers).

Right now I am leaning towards something like a FUSION 12 LCR, FUSION 8 or VOLT for surrounds (dual sides, + back, possibly do the height or wides) and perhaps (8) 18" sealed drivers - something high value like SI18 or like.

I'll probably add a few more subs each year after, I figure I will go sealed because it will be easier to keep adding. I don't have any WAF factors or space concerns, my space is huge and performance is a priority over looks.
t

I'd go ported for subs. Get some crowson's for the seats. $0.02.
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post #188 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Sealed is just easier to build and fit I think and the extension on bottom is better. Ported subs are a pain to build and design.

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post #189 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Sealed is just easier to build and fit I think and the extension on bottom is better. Ported subs are a pain to build and design.

Ported sub's are about 20 to 30 minutes longer to build. Not a.pain at all. For most of the time ported extension is better in 17 to 25hz which is prevalent far more often then 7 to 17 hz.
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post #190 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I disagree. I'm not a noob with a table saw; and I've recently built a few of both. I can build a sealed box in less time it takes me to figure out port tune on WINISD. Ported is harder and extension below port tune drops rapidly. I love the output, but you can make up for that in more drivers. I have no problems starting with 8 drivers and adding 2 or 4 more here and there...

I might go ported but I know it's harder. I've walked both roads. Phase response worries me.

Can you mix ported with horns ? That's really the other option that intrigues me. A couple monster horns for 140db at 30hz, and a couple low tuned ported for low extension might be a nice value proposition. I just worry about in room response or set up issues. My room gain will be very low given my size.

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post #191 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Sealed is just easier to build and fit I think and the extension on bottom is better. Ported subs are a pain to build and design.

If you like the low end like myself, sealed is the only way to go! Ported are for those who are ok with exposing cabs and in your face SPL. All my subs are hidden creating fantastic experience yet are very stealthy. Last Tuesday had a get together with friends and they couldn't believe sound output and wondered were all that speaker bliss came from. They were shocked to see how it all was implemented.

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post #192 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I disagree. I'm not a noob with a table saw; and I've recently built a few of both. I can build a sealed box in less time it takes me to figure out port tune on WINISD. Ported is harder and extension below port tune drops rapidly. I love the output, but you can make up for that in more drivers. I have no problems starting with 8 drivers and adding 2 or 4 more here and there...

I might go ported but I know it's harder. I've walked both roads. Phase response worries me.

Can you mix ported with horns ? That's really the other option that intrigues me. A couple monster horns for 140db at 30hz, and a couple low tuned ported for low extension might be a nice value proposition. I just worry about in room response or set up issues. My room gain will be very low given my size.

Watch my video series in a couple of days. You will see its pretty straightforward smile.gif
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post #193 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I disagree. I'm not a noob with a table saw; and I've recently built a few of both. I can build a sealed box in less time it takes me to figure out port tune on WINISD. Ported is harder and extension below port tune drops rapidly. I love the output, but you can make up for that in more drivers. I have no problems starting with 8 drivers and adding 2 or 4 more here and there...

I might go ported but I know it's harder. I've walked both roads. Phase response worries me.

Can you mix ported with horns ? That's really the other option that intrigues me. A couple monster horns for 140db at 30hz, and a couple low tuned ported for low extension might be a nice value proposition. I just worry about in room response or set up issues. My room gain will be very low given my size.

With proper ported subs, you won't need horns. Eventually you'll run out of power or space trying to catch up to ported output. Ask me how I know wink.gif Starting with 8 and adding 2 or 4 won't even net you 2db.

Ported also has a more tactile feel that just isn't there with sealed. Anyway, just my $0.02. Ported isn't hard, and there are plenty that will help. On the other hand, if you're happy with the output from sealed, it is a quicker build and smaller.
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post #194 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I have not totally decided, but I do know I will need to stay consistent with the choice once it happens.

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post #195 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


Phase response worries me.

Why?
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post #196 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Why?

Mixing. I don't want to mix sealed and ported and gamble with the results.

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post #197 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 10:33 PM
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Where you place the sub in the room will be more of a gamble than mixing different alignments. Besides when you are talking about a frequency with 20+ foot wavelengths, phase differences become secondary as long as the frequency response is flat. Geddes' position is bass should be viewed as steady state - at least as far as the brain perceives it. I'm not sure I'm totally on board with that, but it does highlight the fact that very long wavelengths in small rooms, along with how the brain perceives sound at lower frequency means things like "difference in time to the listening position" or some such doesn't really apply.

I'm alignment agnostic. I like the better group delay of sealed, but it takes much more power and excursion to get equal capability. You have to consider the cost and complexity tradeoff with that.
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post #198 of 237 Old 06-10-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

Where you place the sub in the room will be more of a gamble than mixing different alignments. Besides when you are talking about a frequency with 20+ foot wavelengths, phase differences become secondary as long as the frequency response is flat. Geddes' position is bass should be viewed as steady state - at least as far as the brain perceives it. I'm not sure I'm totally on board with that, but it does highlight the fact that very long wavelengths in small rooms, along with how the brain perceives sound at lower frequency means things like "difference in time to the listening position" or some such doesn't really apply.

I'm alignment agnostic. I like the better group delay of sealed, but it takes much more power and excursion to get equal capability. You have to consider the cost and complexity tradeoff with that.

The only time group delay in a ported box deviates is near tune. At those frequencies it's not really relevant.

Here's a comparison between sealed and ported using the same subs.

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post #199 of 237 Old 06-11-2014, 06:34 AM
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Can you mix ported with horns ? That's really the other option that intrigues me. A couple monster horns for 140db at 30hz, and a couple low tuned ported for low extension might be a nice value proposition.
It would take so many ported subs to match the output of the horns that they'd be just as capable throughout the entire bandwidth anyway. There's no advantage to using different formats to split up the sub-bass bandwidth, just pick the design that goes as low as you want to go, use as many of them as required to reach the desired SPL.

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post #200 of 237 Old 06-11-2014, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Good advice

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post #201 of 237 Old 06-11-2014, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Mfusick

Can you mix ported with horns ? That's really the other option that intrigues me. A couple monster horns for 140db at 30hz, and a couple low tuned ported for low extension might be a nice value proposition.

It would take so many ported subs to match the output of the horns that they'd be just as capable throughout the entire bandwidth anyway. There's no advantage to using different formats to split up the sub-bass bandwidth, just pick the design that goes as low as you want to go, use as many of them as required to reach the desired SPL.
This is kind of rubbish. When modeling for my current setup, I compared horns vs ported in the same size enclosures. I was able to fit two drivers in a ported enclosure that was smaller than the horn, extended lower, and produced comparable output.
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post #202 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 06:30 AM
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This is kind of rubbish. When modeling for my current setup, I compared horns vs ported in the same size enclosures. I was able to fit two drivers in a ported enclosure that was smaller than the horn, extended lower, and produced comparable output.
That's not exactly earth shaking news.
To reach the same f3 horns are larger than direct radiators. Size is the trade off required to get the sensitivity, maximum output and low THD that horns are capable of. Got more money than space? Use a direct radiator. Got more space than money? Use a horn. Don Keele first gave that advice 30 odd years ago, it still holds true today.

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post #203 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I have space. Lots of it. Room is 36 feet long by 25 wide and 10 foot ceilings (12 in the center)

It's new construction. I can hide horns in false walls or do some design elements to work them in. My screen wall is 36" from wall.

How about a monsters horn riser ?

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post #204 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 10:15 AM
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post #205 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I feel the same way. That's why I asked before if ported mixed with horns ok ?

My idea was to use my giant room and riser to make 4 horns under the riser top, or inside it. I'd have good space to work with, and the results should be good output with low distortion.

That would let me put ported subs front and back and tune them low (15hz) for that missing extension and additional output.

I just worry about real life issues setting it all up. Sealed seemed easier.

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post #206 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
That would let me put ported subs front and back and tune them low (15hz) for that missing extension and additional output.
Just build a horn that gives in-room response to 15Hz or lower. They're not all that rare.

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post #207 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 11:13 AM
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Seems to me you wanna go sealed. How about hammering together a bunch of sealed subs that have horn designs available. And if the output isn't there, make some space, buy some wood, and build some horns. If the output is good enough, bask in the ULF and enjoy the simple construction and space savings...
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post #208 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 11:31 AM
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Meh, in the same volume you can build a horn, you can build a smaller ported box that will give you more extension, equal output, and smoother response. You just need to add a second driver. This will add to cost, but its a much less complex build.
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post #209 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Seems to me you wanna go sealed. How about hammering together a bunch of sealed subs that have horn designs available. And if the output isn't there, make some space, buy some wood, and build some horns. If the output is good enough, bask in the ULF and enjoy the simple construction and space savings...

This was kind of my first choice except I'm talking multiple drivers so it's a lot of work either way. I'll start with 8 subs and probably finish off with 20 subs.

One or two boxes is no sweat for me but 8 sub boxes ported is a project.
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post #210 of 237 Old 06-12-2014, 12:01 PM
 
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I think I'd build 8 sealed UXL-18 (in either a group buy or a some kind of bulk discount for like 400 ish each ) in four dual-opposed boxes (8 cu ft each box) and get 2 FP14000's.
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