which would be better for ported... - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
ok, thinking about upgrading from my twin THT's... I love horns but wish I could drop to about 18 hz instead of the 22-24 hz that I'm getting now from my horns.. I would LOVE the lilwrecker or something like that x2 but I can't fit the height (3 feet tall is about my max due to width of the room otherwise the sub would dip into my screen)

sooooooo, I know sealed subs are really popular but I want as much SPL as I can get without having to break the bank adding 8 freaking drivers and amps to get that much power ... I was thinking of 4 ported subs to replace my twin THT's tuned to about 18 hz... I know the dayton and SI 18's are the rage right now but I've seen several people say they're more suited for sealed subs. would I be better off with 4 of the 15 inch dayton Ultimax's or HF/HO series of woofers or would the dayton 18's actually be the best bang for buck in a ported enclosure?
wormraper is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 01:58 PM
Member
 
davece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
would u have the room if u layed the lil wreckers on there side?
davece is offline  
post #3 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by davece View Post

would u have the room if u layed the lil wreckers on there side?

hmmm, not sure. I have a 12 foot wide room, so I could lay them on their sides width wise.... but my center is a 26.5 inch tall SEOS cheap thrills so it would mean the lil wrecker would need to be 13 inches tall MAX to accommodate the center under the screen

if Lilmike had a low profile build kind of like the low profile for the THT I could easily shoot it OUT into the room if it was pretty snug to the side walls, but with the way the lilwrecker is designed now I would have to lay them widthwise.
wormraper is online now  
post #4 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:11 PM
Member
 
davece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
i would measure everythign out and see if u could do it , lilmike designed them so they could be stood up or layed over without driver damage.

how much room do u have from the back wall to the screen ?

i dont have any lilwreckers but i did build 8 microwreckers for my dj rig his stuff works great
davece is offline  
post #5 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by davece View Post

i would measure everythign out and see if u could do it , lilmike designed them so they could be stood up or layed over without driver damage.

how much room do u have from the back wall to the screen ?

i dont have any lilwreckers but i did build 8 microwreckers for my dj his stuff works great

oh, I could lay it down. it's just the width (which would turn into the heighth of the lilwrecker when layed on it's side) would be too much to accomodate my center if laid widthwise of the room

as for "back" of the room. it's a 22 foot long living room. but the back area CAN'T be used. it's a mess of open archways to the kitchen, to the bedroom hallway and the only corner I COULD use it in is all the way in the back left where the backup plasma is located.. the front half of the room is where my HT stuff is in...here's a pic from the seating area.

wormraper is online now  
post #6 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:16 PM
Member
 
davece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
ahhh i see what ur saying now , how about some table tuba's or do they not go low/loud enough?
davece is offline  
post #7 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by davece View Post

ahhh i see what ur saying now , how about some table tuba's or do they not go low enough?

table tubas are the cheaper younger brother to the tht's I have now. no where near the output and frequency of the THT's even... and those are the ones I'm itching to upgrade.
wormraper is online now  
post #8 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:20 PM
Member
 
davece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
ahhh, ive heard of them just didnt know what kind of output they had
davece is offline  
post #9 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by davece View Post

ahhh, ive heard of them just didnt know what kind of output they had

yeah, they cutout at about 32 hz vs. the 22 of the THT, they use a 10 inch driver instead of the 15... would be great for my bedroom though. I'm considering a TT or a couple of anarchy 6 tapped horns for my 12x12 bedroom as nightstands biggrin.gif (so as not to piss of the wife with some giant looking woofer in the bedroom)
wormraper is online now  
post #10 of 264 Old 08-28-2013, 03:21 PM
Member
 
davece's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post

(so as not to piss of the wife with some giant looking woofer in the bedroom)

lmao seems to be common around here
davece is offline  
post #11 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by davece View Post

lmao seems to be common around here

lol, yeah, it's a curse wink.gif


ok, here's what I modeled in Winisd for 4 SI 18's in a ported enclosure

16 hz butterworth filter

tuned to 18hz

running off of 2 ep4000's (2800 watts total since the Ep4000 only puts out about 700 watts REAL WORLD wattage from what I gather)

12 cu foot boxes each

(the red line is a 48 cu ft box with 4 drivers to simulate 4 subs compared to the grey "one sub" one. )... I think that's how you would model 4 subs together..correct me if I'm wrong, It's been a LOOOOOOOONG time since I used winisd

I haven't been able to measure my twin THT's for a while since my mic is gone.. so I can't remember the exact estimated spl at 20 hz... I think it's about 112-114 db's at that level if I remember, but please , again correct me if I'm wrong...

so I'm thinking that all 4 SI 18's should WHOMP both my THT's ... am I correct in this thinking?... especially in sub 22hz content


wormraper is online now  
post #12 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 06:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Martycool007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 162 Post(s)
Liked: 152
I think that you would be much happier with four Dayton or Stereo Integrity 18" drivers in ported cabs tuned to 16hz. I have heard the THT, and the Dayton HO18, and I much preferred the Dayton. I can not speak for the other horns, such as the Wrecker, (or what ever its called, lol).

Four of those 18's would be a truly world class setup, especially considering that you have a fairly smallish room.

Oh and one last thing, that is not how you model in winISD. You just model one driver/enclosure at a time, then use the laws of physics to estimate the SPL, ie....if one SI18 will do 110db at 20hz, then two SI18's will do 113db at 20hz, and so on. The way you did it, winISD will think you have an enclosure that contains 4 subs. Now granted, I don't use winISD, and u could be completely off base here!
Martycool007 is offline  
post #13 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 07:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,203
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
"I know the dayton and SI 18's are the rage right now but I've seen several people say they're more suited for sealed subs."

what is that based on???

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #14 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
I had seen several members say that on a couple forums. That's why I came here to ask. I wasn't sure
wormraper is online now  
post #15 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 08:28 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,203
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
"Oh and one last thing, that is not how you model in winISD."

marty, the way that he has modeled it in winisd is exactly right.

of course, when subs are placed in a room, things change, but using 4 drivers in an enclosure 4 times the size, applying 4 times the power and having ports that are 4 times as large will model correctly.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #16 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 08:29 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,203
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
"I had seen several members say that on a couple forums. That's why I came here to ask. I wasn't sure"

I would be interested why they would make such a comment. I see absolutely no reason why the si18 or Dayton 18ho wouldn't be fantastic performers in the type of ported enclosure that you are contemplating.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #17 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 09:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post

ok, here's what I modeled in Winisd for 4 SI 18's in a ported enclosure

16 hz butterworth filter

tuned to 18hz

running off of 2 ep4000's (2800 watts total since the Ep4000 only puts out about 700 watts REAL WORLD wattage from what I gather)

12 cu foot boxes each

(the red line is a 48 cu ft box with 4 drivers to simulate 4 subs compared to the grey "one sub" one. )... I think that's how you would model 4 subs together..correct me if I'm wrong, It's been a LOOOOOOOONG time since I used winisd

I haven't been able to measure my twin THT's for a while since my mic is gone.. so I can't remember the exact estimated spl at 20 hz... I think it's about 112-114 db's at that level if I remember, but please , again correct me if I'm wrong...

so I'm thinking that all 4 SI 18's should WHOMP both my THT's ... am I correct in this thinking?... especially in sub 22hz content


Just as a comparison, I WinISD'd 4x SI18 in a 15 cubic feet sealed enclosure with 5000w from a Cerwin Vega CV5000:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachments/diy-subwoofer-build/415430d1375920918-memx-diy-procrastination-thread-4-si18s-11-cubic-feet-si-ht-18-d4-x4-sealed-15cuft-5000w-spl.jpg

From what I can see, compared to the ported modelled in the above graph, it is +8dB at 10Hz, -6dB at 20Hz, but then claws it back and overtakes the ported output from 40Hz and up?

And with a box that is 1/3rd the 48cuft size, the excursion only reaches XMax at 9Hz or so, according to the graph:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachments/diy-subwoofer-build/415431d1375920946-memx-diy-procrastination-thread-4-si18s-11-cubic-feet-si-ht-18-d4-x4-sealed-15cuft-5000w-cone-excursion.jpg
so with system chain roll off and room gain added, it should be safe to run without a HPF, I think?

(He says, hoping that if/when he builds his design the modelling will be accurate... lol)

1250wRMS each is a lot more than the 600wRMS rated power but popalock, carp and others are putting 1100wRMS or more into theirs with no reported problems, and I somehow doubt I'm going to be running at Reference that often as anything over -6 on my AVR in my room is just toooo loud, generally speaking! Also, the CV5000 is only about $700, which must be about the same as a couple of EP4000s?


So, anyway, that's my argument for running them sealed tongue.gif lol
MemX is offline  
post #18 of 264 Old 08-29-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
sounds about right from my modeling. only thing is... is CV actually putting out that much power or is it overstated like the Behringers are?

modeled the Dayton 18.. and the SI seems to model a HAIR better due to it's heavier Xmax.. but they're pretty comparable.
wormraper is online now  
post #19 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Which of the two 18s would be reccomended? The so 18 or the Dayton 18s? With the $100 off Dayton code I can get the 4 Dayton's + some speaker grills for my seos builds for $900. The si18s for about $938 just for the drivers
wormraper is online now  
post #20 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 06:35 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,203
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
"From what I can see, compared to the ported modelled in the above graph, it is +8dB at 10Hz, -6dB at 20Hz, but then claws it back and overtakes the ported output from 40Hz and up?"

have a look at the max spl tab. the top end should be the same. around the tuning frequency the ported will have a lot more spl depending on how large the enclosure is and then somewhere down around 10hz or so the sealed will be coming back again.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #21 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 06:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,203
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
it should look something like this on the max spl tab depending on where you tune the cab to and how large it is. green line is ported.


Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #22 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 06:43 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,203
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
the si has a better and more extended bl curve, so more bass period.

the Dayton has a better inductance curve (actually, it is almost perfectly linear), so better for music.

interestingly, even though the bl curve on the si is wider, the distortion figures from ricci's tests indicate that the Dayton may actually have more excursion before hitting the 10% distortion point, but they are quite close in that regard.

in the big picture, probably doesn't matter.




Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #23 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 06:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
nograveconcern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 565
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Why can't you put your center in front of the lilwreckers, mouths toward the corners? Your room is plenty long to where you aren't losing any usable depth space.. I don't see why it has to be on top of the subs. If I was ok w/ an 18hz knee I would be building a pair of lilwreckers myself. The only reason I would build ported would be to get the tune down to 11hz.
nograveconcern is offline  
post #24 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 10:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"From what I can see, compared to the ported modelled in the above graph, it is +8dB at 10Hz, -6dB at 20Hz, but then claws it back and overtakes the ported output from 40Hz and up?"

have a look at the max spl tab. the top end should be the same. around the tuning frequency the ported will have a lot more spl depending on how large the enclosure is and then somewhere down around 10hz or so the sealed will be coming back again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it should look something like this on the max spl tab depending on where you tune the cab to and how large it is. green line is ported.

I don't know what I've done wrong but that Max SPL chart has never worked for me... lol

Thank you for the graph! smile.gif


Personally speaking, I'm going to try to get single digit extension so I'm looking for the safest way, hence sealed for me! smile.gif
MemX is offline  
post #25 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 03:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,844
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 250

You need to input power (watts) for max spl to work but you also need to watch excursion.

Mrkazador is offline  
post #26 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
interesting, so looks like the SI 18's are the pure winner... now how about amp? I was originally gonna go with a pair of EP400's... but what about something like the IPR2 7500 from Peavey or the CV 5000.... I just wasn't sure if they had "accurate" power outputs or if they were like the Behringer and were wildly overstated.
wormraper is online now  
post #27 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 05:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 672
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 48
IRP7500 seems to be spoken of in good terms on here, from what I've read? but I'm not sure anyone actually has one?

CV5000 also seems to be well rated but, again, not many have them. I believe carp has one and, if the courier ever delivers rolleyes.gif I should have one too shortly smile.gif

I'm not sure of the Peavey rolloff but CV5000 is +/-3dB 5Hz-30khz (or something silly high) and if it really is a copy of the American Audio v6001, that has specs that I've seen of +/-0.5dB 10Hz-38kHz...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MemX View Post


I don't know what I've done wrong but that Max SPL chart has never worked for me... lol

Thank you for the graph! smile.gif


Personally speaking, I'm going to try to get single digit extension so I'm looking for the safest way, hence sealed for me! smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

You need to input power (watts) for max spl to work but you also need to watch excursion.
Weird, I thought I had done that - I know I have excursion graphs already, I think I posted one above! Strange... lol
MemX is offline  
post #28 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 06:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
RickD1225's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 738
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 68
MemX, I have yet to get max spl to work for me either.

RickD1225 is offline  
post #29 of 264 Old 08-30-2013, 09:15 PM
Senior Member
 
bradthebold88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 421
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post

interesting, so looks like the SI 18's are the pure winner... now how about amp? I was originally gonna go with a pair of EP400's... but what about something like the IPR2 7500 from Peavey or the CV 5000.... I just wasn't sure if they had "accurate" power outputs or if they were like the Behringer and were wildly overstated.

I power mine with a pair of EP2500/4000s. They are going to be the cheapest option as you can get them for $200 used. The amp measurement thread has real numbers. In 4ohm bridged, it puts out 1900-2000W, so each driver would get 950-1000W which seems to match well with the drivers. Plus, they don't roll off until 5Hz.

Living room: Definitive BP2000TL, CLR3000, BPVX, Quad SI 18" subs
Bedroom: Definitive BP30, CLR2000 Also have had: BP7000SC, BP8B, BP10B, BPX, Dayton 15" HF subs, Rythmik F15
bradthebold88 is offline  
post #30 of 264 Old 08-31-2013, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
wormraper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
Posts: 4,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 38
yeah, the ep4000's are a common one. 95% I'll end up going with a pair of them..

well, I think I'm gonna do it in stages... buy 2 now and see how I like it. then buy 2 later etc... I think I'm gonna get 2 x SI 18's and power with an EP4000.... question. should I bridge the amp and get 2 of the D4's so as to run the subs in parrallel and give the bridged amp a 4ohm load or just run one per channel?

OR

are the SI's that much better than the Dayton 18's? I can get 2 dayton 18's for about $420 vs. the $489 of the SI's...
wormraper is online now  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off