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post #901 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

Yes I'm running in stereo mode at the moment to one woofer with a single void coil.

I would bridge the amp then and if I am following along correctly, set the limiter to 900 to 1000 watts.
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post #902 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

appears that is actually measuring the top of sine wave as the "peak" voltage. in this case 109.9v.

the rms voltage at that level is 0.707 * 109.9, or 77.7v.

power is calculated off rms voltage as e^2/r. 77.7^2 / 4 = 6037/4 = 1509 watts.

try to stay away from sine waves on/around the tuning frequency with that power.

edit: looks like we were typing at the same time. :-)

And do you think raising the wattage will help me stay out of the limiter led on the inuke? because right now running stereo I hit it for several seconds at a time. So with doubling the watts in bridge mode I should be able to turn down the knob on the front and gain output at the same time?

Yes. I'm running 1100 watts to the si18 and I am six clicks back from the full gain. I am using quite a bit of eq. If I use no eq I can turn the gains all the way up. I am listening at about -5 dbs from reference . If I listened at reference I would probably turn the gains back one more notch. When I get the second cube I will probably turn the gains back one more click. At my current level I only hit red clipping on big bass scenes for under a second. Medium bass scenes I hit 3-4 lights. So during the movie I will hit red clipping a few times .. 3-6. That is safe. I am sure I could probably push it a little harder but I want inuke3000 to last.
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post #903 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

Yes I'm running in stereo mode at the moment to one woofer with a single void coil.

OK. In order for you to get more power you have to put the inuke in bridge mode. I have seen a test of the inuke claiming it can do about 2000W into 4ohm in bridge mode. Thats apparently a bit much, but I'm not familiar with you particular woofer so i cant say for sure how much it will take. Chaluga mentioned 1100W. I think a good starting point would be to set the limiter to 4 ohm (I assume its a 4 ohm woofer) and ~1000W and then pay extra attention for a while. Maybe you can bump it up a bit, maybe you need to reduce. I cant really say. I would not recommend running sine wave tests at those power levels. Just do some demanding scenes and see how it goes. I assume you already have you protective high pass in place. If not, then you should look into that first.
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post #904 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I would bridge the amp then and if I am following along correctly, set the limiter to 900 to 1000 watts.

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Originally Posted by splotten View Post


OK. In order for you to get more power you have to put the inuke in bridge mode. I have seen a test of the inuke claiming it can do about 2000W into 4ohm in bridge mode. Thats apparently a bit much, but I'm not familiar with you particular woofer so i cant say for sure how much it will take. Chaluga mentioned 1100W. I think a good starting point would be to set the limiter to 4 ohm (I assume its a 4 ohm woofer) and ~1000W and then pay extra attention for a while. Maybe you can bump it up a bit, maybe you need to reduce. I cant really say. I would not recommend running sine wave tests at those power levels. Just do some demanding scenes and see how it goes. I assume you already have you protective high pass in place. If not, then you should look into that first.

Setting the peak at 1100 watts would only net me 200 or so rms up from the 600 I'm running now, I would need to set it to 1400-1500 peak to reach 1100 rms as I understand it.

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post #905 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post


Setting the peak at 1100 watts would only net me 200 or so rms up from the 600 I'm running now, I would need to set it to 1400-1500 peak to reach 1100 rms as I understand it.

No. If you set the limiter to 1100 W and 4 ohm then that is the very same thing as setting Vp to 93.8 volts. This means the limiter will only limit the signal if the voltage of the wave going out of the amp exceeds 93.8 Volts. A sine wave that has a peak value of 93.8 volts has a rms value of 93.8/sqrt(2) = 66.33 volts. If you apply 66.33 volt rms to a 4 ohm load, the power going into that load will be 66.33^2/4=1100w (!)

Now if you have an amplifier that will do maximum 600 w rms into 4 ohm or if you have a super powerful amp with a limiter set to 600 w and 4 ohm then that is the same as setting Vp to 69.3 volt as opposed to 93.8 Volts.

I know this is very confusing, and maybe my attempt to explain confuses even more, but in order to understand it you really need to look for some text book on the subject. The key to understand it is that in a sine wave V peak and V rms is in essence two ways of looking at the same thing.
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post #906 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 03:19 PM
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I know this is very confusing...

It is...smile.gif

Thanks to you and LTD, I think I understand. If I have a 4 ohm driver with a continuous rating of 1000W and I bridge the iNuke 3000DSP amp, I will turn down the limiter on the remote software until I see 1000 watts displayed in the box...right?
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post #907 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

It is...smile.gif

Thanks to you and LTD, I think I understand. If I have a 4 ohm driver with a continuous rating of 1000W and I bridge the iNuke 3000DSP amp, I will turn down the limiter on the remote software until I see 1000 watts displayed in the box...right?

I assume you are right but unfortunately the manual is next to worthless so i cant be sure. You really should investigate how to set Hold and Realease. I believe Hold is the time the dsp-limiter allows you to exceed you 1000 w value before backing off the gain in accordance with the dbfs value, and that Release is the time bore the gain is reset to normal.
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post #908 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 04:05 PM
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No. If you set the limiter to 1100 W and 4 ohm then that is the very same thing as setting Vp to 93.8 volts. This means the limiter will only limit the signal if the voltage of the wave going out of the amp exceeds 93.8 Volts. A sine wave that has a peak value of 93.8 volts has a rms value of 93.8/sqrt(2) = 66.33 volts. If you apply 66.33 volt rms to a 4 ohm load, the power going into that load will be 66.33^2/4=1100w (!)

Now if you have an amplifier that will do maximum 600 w rms into 4 ohm or if you have a super powerful amp with a limiter set to 600 w and 4 ohm then that is the same as setting Vp to 69.3 volt as opposed to 93.8 Volts.

I know this is very confusing, and maybe my attempt to explain confuses even more, but in order to understand it you really need to look for some text book on the subject. The key to understand it is that in a sine wave V peak and V rms is in essence two ways of looking at the same thing.

The max the amp shows to produce is 2100 watts in bridged into a 4 ohm load. In the software playing with the limiter it goes all the way to 5000 watts. So plenty of head room. Its quite confusing, I think I'm getting what you're saying, I'm just not sure how setting the limit at 1100 produces 1100 rms and 1100 peak at the same time, and if it does then I'm limiting my peak to 1100 aswell instead of closer to what my driver is rated to handle (1500)?

And thanks a ton for all of your help!

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post #909 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

The max the amp shows to produce is 2100 watts in bridged into a 4 ohm load. In the software playing with the limiter it goes all the way to 5000 watts. So plenty of head room. Its quite confusing, I think I'm getting what you're saying, I'm just not sure how setting the limit at 1100 produces 1100 rms and 1100 peak, and if it does then I'm limiting my peak to 1100 aswell instead of closer to what my driver is rated to handle (1500)?

And thanks a ton for all of your help!

As stated above. You need to look into the Hold, Release and dbfs settings. They are the ones that allow you to exceed 1100 w, for how long you can do that, and what happens when you do exceed 1100 w. At this point I'm into guessing as opposed to knowing and I hope some one "in the know" can enlighten us as to how these settings work and what appropriate settings are.

However if you set it at 1500 watt and 4 ohm then the limiter will allow 1499 watt for infinity.

Some one?
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post #910 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

The max the amp shows to produce is 2100 watts in bridged into a 4 ohm load. In the software playing with the limiter it goes all the way to 5000 watts. So plenty of head room. Its quite confusing, I think I'm getting what you're saying, I'm just not sure how setting the limit at 1100 produces 1100 rms and 1100 peak at the same time, and if it does then I'm limiting my peak to 1100 aswell instead of closer to what my driver is rated to handle (1500)?

And thanks a ton for all of your help!

Ltd always explains it better then me but 1100 watts is rms. He has done graphs that show that the excursion of the cone is within limits. The manufacturer will always put max power lower since it doesn't want blown speakers. Its safe at 1100 and dozens of people are running it their with success. I don't know how the limiter works and I am learning from you guys about that aspect.
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post #911 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:11 PM
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Ltd always explains it better then me but 1100 watts is rms. He has done graphs that show that the excursion of the cone is within limits. The manufacturer will always put max power lower since it doesn't want blown speakers. Its safe at 1100 and dozens of people are running it their with success. I don't know how the limiter works and I am learning from you guys about that aspect.

That makes sense. The way I'm reading it seems as though setting the limiter at 1100 wont allow for any peaks since its always running at 1100 rms? So my bass wont be able to peak when needed?

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post #912 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Ltd always explains it better then me but 1100 watts is rms. He has done graphs that show that the excursion of the cone is within limits. The manufacturer will always put max power lower since it doesn't want blown speakers. Its safe at 1100 and dozens of people are running it their with success. I don't know how the limiter works and I am learning from you guys about that aspect.

That makes sense. The way I'm reading it seems as though setting the limiter at 1100 wont allow for any peaks since its always running at 1100 rms? So my bass wont be able to peak when needed?

Your setting the rms at basically the peak limit . Most of the time it will be using 100-600 watts. When the big scenes hit it will use all of the 1100 watts.
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post #913 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:23 PM
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Your setting the rms at basically the peak limit . Most of the time it will be using 100-600 watts. When the big scenes hit it will use all of the 1100 watts.

Ok that makes sense. Sorry for my newbiness.. You all are helping me alot. Maybe I can get around to rewiring my connection for bridged mode tonight to try it.

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post #914 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:26 PM
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That makes sense. The way I'm reading it seems as though setting the limiter at 1100 wont allow for any peaks since its always running at 1100 rms? So my bass wont be able to peak when needed?

Again. NO ;-)

The Limiter -will allow- you to momentarily deliver more power than the 1100 w you set it to. However there are 3 settings (Hold, Release and dbfs) that regulate the behavior of the limiter when you exceed your 1100 w limit. Nowhere is it explained in any detail what each of the settings do, but I have given my best guess in #907. As Chaluga said, and as I said, If you set it to 1100 w you can deliver 1100 w for infinity. The amount of time you can exceed 1100 w depends on the other settings that hopefully someone can explain in detail.
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Again. NO ;-)

The Limiter -will allow- you to momentarily deliver more power than the 1100 w you set it to. However there are 3 settings (Hold, Release and dbfs) that regulate the behavior of the limiter when you exceed your 1100 w limit. Nowhere is it explained in any detail what each of the settings do, but I have given my best guess in #907. As Chaluga said, and as I said, If you set it to 1100 w you can deliver 1100 w for infinity. The amount of time you can exceed 1100 w depends on the other settings that hopefully someone can explain in detail.

OK, I'm on board now. Eager to test this out! Thank you

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post #916 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:44 PM
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OK, I'm on board now. Eager to test this out! Thank you

Cool. smile.gif Please report back if you discover how the settings work. Its simply amazing its not explained in the manual mad.gif
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post #917 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:47 PM
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"I assume you are right but unfortunately the manual is next to worthless so i cant be sure. You really should investigate how to set Hold and Realease. I believe Hold is the time the dsp-limiter allows you to exceed you 1000 w value before backing off the gain in accordance with the dbfs value, and that Release is the time bore the gain is reset to normal."

+1 the manual is completely useless on this one.

my interpretation is the same as yours.

hold: how long to hold the gate open once the level is exceeded before the limiter is engaged.


example:

0 ms hold would allow nothing to get through. the limiter would instantly kick in as soon as voltage tried to exceed the limit.

60 ms would allow the first three cycles of a 50hz drum beat to get through, then the limiter would kick in.

1000 ms which is a full second would allow for some pretty big sustained notes to come through before the limiter kicked in.


release: how long to hold the limiter in place once engaged.

if using the limiter to prevent overheating, keep it on the short end, perhaps 100ms or less with a 2000ms or greater hold. this would mean that the limit can be exceeded for 10% of a second every two seconds or longer. that way gun shots and explosions get through with impact, but sine waves and other killers get held in check.

if using the limiter to prevent excursion/mechanical banging, a zero attack 0ms limiter may be best.


but like splot said, the manual is completely useless in this area, so take this all with a clump of salt.
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post #918 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

OK, I'm on board now. Eager to test this out! Thank you

Cool. smile.gif Please report back if you discover how the settings work. Its simply amazing its not explained in the manual mad.gif

Manual are often a joke. :thumbdown:

Might want to create a thread , inuke limiter... after you give it a listen.
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post #919 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 05:56 PM
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example:

0 ms hold would allow nothing to get through. the limiter would instantly kick in as soon as voltage tried to exceed the limit.

60 ms would allow the first three cycles of a 50hz drum beat to get through, then the limiter would kick in.

1000 ms which is a full second would allow for some pretty big sustained notes to come through before the limiter kicked in.


release: how long to hold the limiter in place once engaged.

if using the limiter to prevent overheating, keep it on the short end, perhaps 100ms or less with a 2000ms or greater hold. this would mean that the limit can be exceeded for 10% of a second every two seconds or longer. that way gun shots and explosions get through with impact, but sine waves and other killers get held in check.

if using the limiter to prevent excursion/mechanical banging, a zero attack 0ms limiter may be best.

++Interesting post John. Down the road a little I would like to learn much more about the subject.

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I'm about to solder the new connection, I believe its red to 1+ and black to 2+ for bridged correct?

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I assume you are right but unfortunately the manual is next to worthless so i cant be sure. You really should investigate how to set Hold and Realease. I believe Hold is the time the dsp-limiter allows you to exceed you 1000 w value before backing off the gain in accordance with the dbfs value, and that Release is the time bore the gain is reset to normal."

+1 the manual is completely useless on this one.

my interpretation is the same as yours.

hold: how long to hold the gate open once the level is exceeded before the limiter is engaged.


example:

0 ms hold would allow nothing to get through. the limiter would instantly kick in as soon as voltage tried to exceed the limit.

60 ms would allow the first three cycles of a 50hz drum beat to get through, then the limiter would kick in.

1000 ms which is a full second would allow for some pretty big sustained notes to come through before the limiter kicked in.


release: how long to hold the limiter in place once engaged.

if using the limiter to prevent overheating, keep it on the short end, perhaps 100ms or less with a 2000ms or greater hold. this would mean that the limit can be exceeded for 10% of a second every two seconds or longer. that way gun shots and explosions get through with impact, but sine waves and other killers get held in check.

if using the limiter to prevent excursion/mechanical banging, a zero attack 0ms limiter may be best.


but like splot said, the manual is completely useless in this area, so take this all with a clump of salt.

That would make sense, I want to try all this just not with my own woofer wink.gif I haven't started messing with the dynamic EQ yet, my attack is set at the default of 50ms.

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Soldered the new connection, I'm 100% that red is on 1 + and black is on 2+, I have it set on bridged mode, inuke software shows on the bars that its getting lots of signal but no sound at all coming from sub. Turned the dials to max on inuke front and only the first like blinks during what should be heavy bass, still hear nothing. Some more help? I dont have to rewire the cable too do i? Tried it again in stereo and works fine..

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post #924 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 07:59 PM
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Turned the dials to max on inuke front

The input dial for channel B should be turned all the way to the left or off...Channel A is active while in bridge mode. Now, this is how it is on my EP-4000 in bridge mode and I am guessing the same holds true for the iNuke 3000???

The remote software shows Channel A as active while in bridge mode...
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Soldered the new connection, I'm 100% that red is on 1 + and black is on 2+, I have it set on bridged mode, inuke software shows on the bars that its getting lots of signal but no sound at all coming from sub. Turned the dials to max on inuke front and only the first like blinks during what should be heavy bass, still hear nothing. Some more help? I dont have to rewire the cable too do i? Tried it again in stereo and works fine..

yes you have to rewire the cable as well.
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post #926 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 08:03 PM
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The input dial for channel B should be turned all the way to the left or off...Channel A is active while in bridge mode. Now, this is how it is on my EP-4000 in bridge mode and I am guessing the same holds true for the iNuke 3000???

The remote software shows Channel A as active while in bridge mode...

This is how I have. When I play the negative back on 1- and out inuke in stereo everything works. But no sound on positive 1+ and negative on 2+.

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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

yes you have to rewire the cable as well.

Oh! Please explain..

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post #928 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaPie View Post

Oh! Please explain..

It has to be 1plus red , two plus neg from the sub all the way to the amp. Then your 4 ohm bridged. Leave both gains turned all the way up. It is bridgeing power from both channels. You will see clipping lights on both sides. Thats how mine is.
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post #929 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

It has to be 1plus red , two plus neg from the sub all the way to the amp. Then your 4 ohm bridged. Leave both gains turned all the way up. It is bridgeing power from both channels. You will see clipping lights on both sides. Thats how mine is.

How will i know when its clipping then if the lights are always on both sides? Or do you mean seeing the clipping lights on both sides is a way to tell that bridge mode is working? I assume since the limiter is set that the clip light doesnt matter because it cant be outputing more than 1100 watts at any given time?

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post #930 of 1058 Old 02-23-2014, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Leave both gains turned all the way up. It is bridgeing power from both channels. You will see clipping lights on both sides. Thats how mine is.

Interesting...smile.gif

That is different from my EP-4000...I also found an old thread over at Behringer that stated to turn the input level on Channel B off....go figure! smile.gif
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