Bought four sealed 18" cabinets on a wild hare - Direct me to a driver setup at least competitive or superior to JTR Captivators... - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
10 or 11Hz "tune" on the new Seaton might be partially dsp controlled instead of cabinet related since the ultimax 18" drivers are said to be capable of infinite baffle. That characteristic could lessen the box limitation with some fancy dynamic eq and dsp work.
Seaton sauce indeed...


Lil Seaton Stank!
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post #362 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 01:49 PM
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JTR thread, mark was discussing it there ironically enough...haha

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post #363 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 03:51 PM
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That ported sub looked awesome, why did Mark never actually put it into production as one of his regular products?
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post #364 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
10 or 11Hz "tune" on the new Seaton might be partially dsp controlled instead of cabinet related since the ultimax 18" drivers are said to be capable of infinite baffle. That characteristic could lessen the box limitation with some fancy dynamic eq and dsp work.
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Might be able to pull the knee a little bit but a tune is a tune I would think. You pull more than 1-2hz, and dsp up that region, driver will unload awful quick. Like no warning gonna pop, fast. Of course you could then layer on a limiter to prevent it from getting to that point. Fine line there in between though if I had to guess.
DSP can only change the incoming electrical signal, not the physical resonance of a reflex port. The impedance measurements confirm a minimum at 11Hz, where visual observation with excursion & port output suggest 9.5-10.5Hz, below which excursion increases quickly, and some creative high pass filtering in the clunky, but very flexible, on-board DSP protects from nicely.

There are some tricks in the layout which help lower the tune which I originally expected to be closer to 12.5Hz and suspected should be lower, and in fact was. Testing such a large dimension box in detail showed many interesting behaviors I've been able to align models with, making for some fun potential in other designs armed with that knowledge.

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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
Link to this 11hz tune specimen?
dlbeck was in town and popped into the office while I was testing it and grabbed a pic that ended up in the JTR thread a few days before I had things set to post on my forum. The same and more info is now in a new thread here on my forum.
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post #365 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 04:39 PM
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Awesome, thx!
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post #366 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
That ported sub looked awesome, why did Mark never actually put it into production as one of his regular products?
The original design was a 6th order bandpass using an 18" PR and 15" driver. Itai, aka cubesys, who later founded iRule has the first prototypes. These worked quite well and in fact I'm updating them while in Michigan the next 2 days...

Jeff built a similar design as the very first Captivator which was first a bigger unit with single 18" & 15" for a customer I didn't think it was worth dealing with (I was right ). Jeff re-designed a more compact version on his own and started selling them before he diagnosed the issue/limitation of the PR we were using which worked and modeled perfectly at low levels, but had surround cavitation issues in unexpected conditions. Similar to this re-purposing, he changed to a very beefy 18" driver to keep delivering the product and so became the product many of you know so well.

I later determined what was required from a PR for this use (especially +/-30mm from an 18" in 1-2 cu.ft.!), and the off-the-shelf solutions don't fit directly in the original boxes. At the same time I ran into confidence issues with the reliable delivery of the intended drivers. Basically that product & design has been at the ready for suitable parts and suppliers who could deliver them, or time and resources to tool custom parts. Many have seen this custom project I did for Keith Yates which is a direct derivative of the Terraform cabinets using more appropriate parts. If US suppliers weren't so flaky and could make the customizations I wanted, a related product might be available now. It is possible if not likely it will be at some point in the future.
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post #367 of 389 Old 08-19-2014, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@popalock ,


yeah i'll play around!


I've been told by @dominguez1 and @gpmbc that the caps need to be nearfield in their 15hz tune and the sealed all up front.


But I plan to play! Yes there are eight cabs and eight drivers. Not quite enough to make a symbol of manhood like you did with your 16, but eight is sufficient output for me.
Nice! The caps in the 15hz nearfield will be killer. How far away will the be from the LP? I know you've got a new theater, how big is it? Have you fired up the caps already? Do you have an idea how your room affects your LFE FR yet?
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post #368 of 389 Old 08-24-2014, 06:47 PM
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What's the word, Man, are these ready to go or what?!!
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post #369 of 389 Old 08-24-2014, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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They are up and running.


After spending several hours with them tonight I'm not really quite sure about them yet. They sound 'thumpy' to me. My FR is flat as a pancake between about 15hz and 120hz.


one cut of 7dB at 45hz
one cut of 5dB at 29hz
one 3dB boost house curve
one 3dB dynamic house curve


Flat as a ruler - not sure I'm liking the sound though. GOBs of headroom, but then I didn't lack headroom on the caps. I need to spend more time playing with EQ and crossover points.


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post #370 of 389 Old 08-24-2014, 09:15 PM
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Looks awesome Archaea. I would imagine that it will take some time getting them dialed in to your liking.
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post #371 of 389 Old 08-24-2014, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
They are up and running.


After spending several hours with them tonight I'm not really quite sure about them yet. They sound 'thumpy' to me. My FR is flat as a pancake between about 15hz and 120hz.


one cut of 7dB at 45hz
one cut of 5dB at 29hz
one 3dB boost house curve
one 3dB dynamic house curve


Flat as a ruler - not sure I'm liking the sound though. GOBs of headroom, but then I didn't lack headroom on the caps. I need to spend more time playing with EQ and crossover points.


Try playing with them around the room. We moved Coach's DO SI18s to the sides of the room from the front and the bass sounded much better. If you have kids, you could even make shapes or letters around the rooms with a few boxes. The letter i on one side, an s on the other. Could be fun. Be creative!
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post #372 of 389 Old 08-24-2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Flat as a ruler - not sure I'm liking the sound though. GOBs of headroom, but then I didn't lack headroom on the caps. I need to spend more time playing with EQ and crossover points.
Looking great! They probably are the best looking DIY subs out there....or maybe I am just a fan of inverted/no dustcap subs in general?

Try to beast them up in quad stacks on each side of your screen before you start to scatter them accross the room.

I'm surprised you didn't include measurements with your inital impressions. You feeling ok man?
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post #373 of 389 Old 08-25-2014, 12:23 PM
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Jonathan I was thinking about your idea to turn down the sub trim until everything is flat and then use the dynamic eq function for bass. I think that's a great idea, basically that's how I do it with the 215's. The only issue is you have 2 separate inukes both with 2 channels so you have to make all adjustments 4 times while I just do it once. Still, once you get it dialed in how you like in on most content you could leave it alone for the most part. I don't think you constantly adjust the bass like I do once you get it where you like it.
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post #374 of 389 Old 08-25-2014, 12:43 PM
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I agree with PL. Stack em, or at least attempt to group them somehow that each driver face is equidistant from your seating position.

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post #375 of 389 Old 08-25-2014, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I have some updates in this thread.
Archaea's multi-purpose Home Theater room

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post #376 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been meaning to put some assembly pictures in this thread for some time.




Parts all laid out (some opened and grouped already) - - - - (silly expensive for all these little things---- > $450 for these components completing the boxes -- things I didn't initially think about and they add up!)
25lbs of poly fill from wal-mart
Black aluminum back plates with gold plated terminals from parts express (~$30 each box!)
Rubber feet from parts express (PENN-ELCOM 9106 RUBBER CABINET FOOT)
stainless washers, stainless machine bolts, premium t-nuts, black machine bolts, 12 gauge speaker wire, etc...








Boxes which cost me about $300 each including gas for pickup, or $250 each outright. (I consider this a VERY good price because these boxes are excellent in every way! -- the original guy that sold these said the cabinet shop that made them had a minimum order of 16 and he was charged $460 each. He was going to open a speaker/subwoofer line, but then opted against it and sold all his gear he had purchased at a loss. I purchased the second set of four from another forum member who had also purchased them from the same guy originally. So I ended up with eight. I'll buy more if I come across more of the same). There are pictures of the boxes throughout this thread - but they are excellent. Here is a link to some pictures:
http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/jv...d%20Enclosures







I decided on using premium t-nuts to mount the drivers because I didn't want to worry about my mounting holes wearing out if I replaced the drivers - even though the front baffle was two sheets of 3/4" Baltic Birch, with a third layer to inset the surround and basket. In hindsight I was very pleased I used t-nuts because a local friend of mine has two of these same cabinets, and has stripped out a hole in securing one of his LMS-5400 with regular wood screws after a couple screw and unscrew sessions in trying to seal an air leak. He can salvage the box easily by using t-nuts, or a larger screw - but I don't have to mess with that at all should I need to remove the drivers or unscrew the machine bolts at any time.


I was super fortunate that the CNC drilled pilot mounting holes for the LMS-5400 drivers on these cabinets matched PERFECTLY to the Ultimax UM18-22 driver basket mounting holes. So I simply drilled out the initial pilot holes in increasing size from 1/8" to 5/16" and used these premium t-nuts from parts express.
(Part # 081-1088)
http://www.parts-express.com/10-32-d...-pcs--081-1088

I haven't reviewed them yet on Part's Express site - but I need to. These premium t-nuts were incredible. Not one issue in installing 64. They are really a SOLID product. -- no stripped t-nuts, no cross threads - which is a common complaint of using standard t-nuts. Each t-nut has six prongs - and they are made of a high strength quality metal. I bought some 2" hex cap, black oxide, alloy steel, Brighton Best machine screws from an e-bay seller (part # 015139-100) These were also a high quality product and I am very happy with them as well. Mark Seaton recommended me going with the 1/4" t-nut for a bit extra durability instead of the 10/32 - but his recommendation was after I had already bought the 10/32 and I ended up having no issues at all with the slightly smaller size. My thought was the smaller size would leave a bit more wood between the driver circle cutout and t-nut shank. I put some serious crank on these with my 18V cordless drill on a couple test units and not one stripped out - or came loose - so I can't speak highly enough about this hardware and feel it is totally sufficient for my needs. This was a very time consuming process because in addition to carefully drilling out each hole (64 holes) in incrementing size bits(you have to make sure your t-nut installations are straight!), I had to lock down each t-nut before putting the driver in which meant tightening down each hole with a machine bolt and washer and then reversing the machine bolt back out again. This is a solid half day of time (at least) for these eight cabs before doing anything else at all!



I then shop vac'ed out the cabs from the drill mess and applied a bit of cosmetic black paint to the drilled locations.



I divided up the 25lbs of poly fill into even clumps as best I could.



I mushed the clumps of poly fill into each cab. About 3 lbs per cab (or 1lb per cubic foot - per typical suggestion).
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=79



I bought some cheap durable nylon netting from JoAnn's. I cut and laid the the nylon netting around the inside of the enclosure to ensure the poly didn't shift and come into contact with the driver cone, fearing impeding the cone's movement. I then stapled the netting in place.

rinse and repeat for all cabs...



I then started wiring up the drivers: I wired each cab for four ohm (UM18-22 has dual 2ohm voice coils) For the internal wire + to - I used a small piece of 12 AWG Romex bent into a semi-circle (single copper wire). For the cable that lead to the back of the aluminum plate and gold binding posts I used a 3' section of 12 gauge finely braided speaker wire. To perform the back wiring I used the carboard cut out that shipped with the Ultimax driver so I could lay it face down on the carpet without stressing/smashing the surround.

Each driver was wired the same


I dropped each speaker in the cabinets after wiring up the Parts-Express binding post using gold ring terminals. I'm a big guy and didn't have any trouble just dropping the 50lb speakers into the box directly. If you are worried about smashing your fingers you can use long plastic zip ties to put in a couple opposite side speaker basket mounting holes and then use the zip ties as handles to drop the subwoofer basket in, and finely adjust it's position. After you drop the subwoofer in, then cut and pull out the zip tie. I found that step unnecessary. If I was mounting something exceptionally heavy like the LMS-5400 - I would have had to employ that trick to avoid damaging my boxes. I used a couple of small screwdrivers as tools in the subwoofer basket hole to finely tune the rotation of the driver to match my t-nut hole installation. I managed to mount all eight drivers without making a single mar on any of my boxes! WOOT!

Though - - -I actually had to use a wire snips to cut the o-ring so it would fit over the binding post connector, which I don't think I should have had to do - but the circle on the ring connector was too small to fit otherwise. No big deal - it is still just as functional. These are the parts I used for the connection to the terminals outside the box.
(095-665) - https://www.parts-express.com/gold-r...-pair--095-665
(091-620) - https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-gold--091-620
(091-602) - https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...dized--091-602


First run with all eight subwoofers up front...




This particular arrangement with the subs in a straight line lead to around a 50hz room null in my frequency response (so I ended up changing the setup to address that null).


Currently I have six up front curved in a slight semi-circle and two behind my main two chairs firing into the back of the chair for nearfield. The first six are run off "subwoofer output 1" and the back two are run off "subwoofer output 2" of my Denon 4520CI.



I am using a pair of iNuke DSP 6000's to run all eight subwoofers. Because of the impedance curve of these subwoofers I can run two Ultimax 18"s per channel in parallel (supposed two ohm load) on an amp not designed to run an impedance load below 4ohm on each channel. The UM18-22 only hits below about 6ohm resistance at frequencies below 8hz. I have implemented a high pass filter on my inuke DSP 6000's using this thread's advice to set a HPF at about 11hz, and thus can get away with running a "2 ohm load" on a minimum 4 ohm capable amp. How to extend the high pass filter below 20hz in DCX2496

If I don't employee the HPF, then the iNuke DSP 6000 can't drive two ultimax 18's per channel on very specific movie scenes like Black Hawk Down - Irene because the impedance dips too low and the amp power cycles, even at low volumes. However with the HPF in place I don't have any problems with powering a pair of these Ultimax 18" subs off a single channel of the iNuke DSP 6000 - even to very high volumes. So 3 channels of two iNuke DSP 6000's power my front six subwofers, and the remaining channel powers my rear pair of UM18-22. I'm not much of a believer in frequencies below about 15hz having much effect on the overall cinema experience - especially on my concrete slab theater space - - - so this compromise doesn't bother me much. At some point I may try a different amplifier setup - but for now it's meeting my desire.

I'll screenshot my iNuke DSP 6000 settings at some point and add them to this post.
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post #377 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 11:19 AM
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Strong post is very strong.

Surprised about the iNUKE and cycling, is it a specific frequency ?
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post #378 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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yes --- if I play the BHD scene (7hz content) with no HPF in place the inukes will power cycle even at fairly low volumes. With the HPF in place - no problem.
Now take into consideration I'm boosting the ULF by quite a bit - since my subs aren't boundary loaded. --- since my front projector wall is a false/baffle wall - basically just studs and one layer of drywall - the subs are getting very little boundary gain and I'm effectively placing them about 6-8 feet out from the true front concrete wall...


With LTD02's suggested HPF in place the drivers still pulse at 7hz with the helicopter blades and I can still feel the pulse in my room, they just don't do it with the crazy motion that attempts to occur with the traditional house curves. Even thought he DSP only controls down to 20hz directly on the iNuke - the DSP still definitely effects frequencies below the visible GUI's cutoff of 20hz. IE -- a house curve shelf is definitely still active below 20hz, even if you can't see it with the GUI.

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Last edited by Archaea; 10-05-2014 at 11:25 AM.
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post #379 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 11:33 AM
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Jonathan, it could be your fans too. After about 4-5 months my iNuke 6000's would start to power cycle like that. Swapped the stock fans back in just to see if it made a difference. Sure enough the amps stopped power cycling. Try quickly changing the fans out for the stock ones and take the HPF off and see if they still power cycle.
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post #380 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Stock fans were back in place almost immediately after testing both ways in the first couple days. Without stock fans - the iNukes power cycle much faster.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #381 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
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Stock fans are back in place almost immediately after testing both ways. without stock fans - the iNukes power cycle much faster.

Well that settles that....lol
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post #382 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 01:15 PM
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Archaea - Top notch post...thanks so much.

Glad to hear the tee-nuts worked for you but I get scared they'll come out or shred the wood so I went a slightly different route with my sub builds.

http://shop.stafast.com/sl14205h2130

I use a pair of small screws to hold them in place so I won't have to worry as much as I would with a tee or hurricane nut.
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post #383 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Dgage,

I hadn't seen those before. Nice choice!
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post #384 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 03:48 PM
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No kidding! I like that a lot. Tnuts are the bane of my existence. I quite using them long ago after I had some threads pull.

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post #385 of 389 Old 10-05-2014, 07:46 PM
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Well I wanted these Type J inserts but no one makes them in 1/4-20. I found a place in China that would make them for me but I'd have to order 10,000 units, which was about $1100. I decided the previous ones I posted were good enough, maybe even a little better.

http://shop.stafast.com/threaded-ins...ck-in/j-insert
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post #386 of 389 Old 10-08-2014, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
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Strong post is very strong.

Surprised about the iNUKE and cycling, is it a specific frequency ?
How is it surprising? He's running a 2 ohm load on an amplifier that can only do 4 ohm or higher.
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post #387 of 389 Old 10-09-2014, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Archaea - Top notch post...thanks so much.

Glad to hear the tee-nuts worked for you but I get scared they'll come out or shred the wood so I went a slightly different route with my sub builds.

http://shop.stafast.com/sl14205h2130

I use a pair of small screws to hold them in place so I won't have to worry as much as I would with a tee or hurricane nut.
I like it, thanks!
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post #388 of 389 Old 10-09-2014, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
How is it surprising? He's running a 2 ohm load on an amplifier that can only do 4 ohm or higher.
Did not realize that...
@Archaea, what say you sir! Is that true?
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post #389 of 389 Old 10-09-2014, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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not exactly --- let's split the difference. It's more like a ~3 ohm load on an amp that is spec'ed to do only 4ohm or higher.


The impedance graph (ohm/resistance plot) shows the UM18-22 to be a six ohm subwoofer above about 7hz. So I'm only running the subs in parallel as a pair at about a combined minimum of a 3ohm load above 7hz.

My workaround is the HPF which eliminates those frequencies which have the lowest ohm rating. Without the HPF - I easily overwhelm the amp with too little resistance and it power cycles, even at low volumes. With the HPF- no problems.


Ultimax UM-18 impedance chart is in bottom right for reference.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/...spec-sheet.pdf

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
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