Bought four sealed 18" cabinets on a wild hare - Direct me to a driver setup at least competitive or superior to JTR Captivators... - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 400 Unread Today, 12:46 PM
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Not sure why you expected sealed subs to have more output than ported...?

Switch your um18-22 to ported and it's a whole 'nother level for output.

You're comparing five sealed 18"s to four ported 18"s? Ported should have like 9 dB advantage around tune.

The "benefit" of sealed is much smaller cab sizes, and lower extension. Lower extension is a tradeoff of output.
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post #392 of 400 Unread Today, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Not sure why you expected sealed subs to have more output than ported...?

Switch your um18-22 to ported and it's a whole 'nother level for output.

You're comparing five sealed 18"s to four ported 18"s? Ported should have like 9 dB advantage around tune.

The "benefit" of sealed is much smaller cab sizes, and lower extension. Lower extension is a tradeoff of output.

He was talking about 2 ported subs not 4, and he has a total of 8 sealed subs.
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post #393 of 400 Unread Today, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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@Bassment ,

Carps right. I only ever had two ported captivators --- but i'm pretty confident it would take at least six, maybe eight sealed UM18-22 to even meet/beat the Caps performance level pretty much regardless. I don't think four would meet or beat in any room/regardless of boundary gain. The 2011 Captivator drivers I had were the same the Orbit Shifter uses.

JTR mates that driver with a 4000 watt speaker power amp, and his site states the sub should be good for 7,200 watt peak.

The UM-18 is 88dB efficient
The JTR driver was in the mid 90s efficiency IIRC, and Jeff states well over 100dB sensitive towards 100Hz.

So right out of the gate - with one watt applied it is at least 50% louder, maybe 2x's as loud based on the efficiency alone.

The JTR driver takes basically four times the power, and has about 50% more usable excursion.

So that's another doubling of volume based on power handling and excursion.


All that to say it's more than just the 9dB difference you get from going from a sealed box to a ported box.

Basically, - 2 things ---
1) even though I knew the lay of the land when I started this project - - - I'm surprised by how little output (if you try for a consistently flat FR, and don't get a load of free boundary gain) multiples of these sealed compare to monster ported subs.
2) thank goodness for nearfield


A co-worker who came to visit my place recently said I should ditch the sealed and go back to the Captivators that he had previously heard after listening to both ported caps and all eight sealed. @JDontee visited my new space, and basically said he remembered the 2 ported caps being more savage/tactile than the eight sealed. Since their visits I've reworked the amps - as mentioned a few posts back because it was in the back of my head that maybe it was just the fact that I was underdriving the subs with a mismatched impedance load and the amps were failing earlier than they should/could - if they were properly matched.

That's not the case...That's the experimentation I was doing last night.

I've considered dumping these and going with a pair of gjallarhorns - or a pair of Orbit Shifters or something - but Scott Simonian is right. Once you get to these levels the only time I need more output is for ear splitting demo volumes, and with a horn sub you have to navigate avoiding resonant frequencies, and lesser placement options, and lacking full bandwidth sound capability. It just sucks that to you would have to double down on subs, and amps to get 6dB more --- which might be my point of desire.

But --- back to reality - - the eight sealed UM18-22 fit my need/want, especially with a few near field and will probably stay a long time - I'm just reporting that if I, personally, had less than eight of these UM18-22 - I'd be disappointed with the outcome when compared to my pair of JTR ported Captivators. I'm going to hook up the three sealed nearfield today and get back to enjoying that tactile experience!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #394 of 400 Unread Today, 01:37 PM
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Ah, I thought captivators were the dual driver one.

Even comparing 2 ported to 5 sealed, Ported will be louder at tune.

You're right about needing 8 sealed to be super impressive I think. That's why you see lots of set-ups around here with 8 or 16 sealed subs :P

So with all 8 going, the 8 sealed are better than the 2 ported though right?
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post #395 of 400 Unread Today, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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yes

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #396 of 400 Unread Today, 06:42 PM
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No offense but it depends on which 8 subs. In comparing 2 of my previous LMS-5400s to quad SI HT18, that was about equivalent (same wattage). Beast still has the best sounding theater I've heard with 8 HT18s but 4 HST-18s/LMS-5400s or 2 HS24s would be about equivalent...at least based on my personal experience. Still haven't heard the Orbit Shifter but I'll probably head over to Asoofi1s place at some point to get that experience.

So if you want to scale down to 2 subs, you could go with the Orbit Shifters or the HS24s. Note, I know the Orbit Shifters might have more output above tune but a pair of HS24s should be pretty close to what most rooms need...in comparison to 8 18s. But this is all conjecture.
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post #397 of 400 Unread Today, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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A pair of orbit shifters pretty much has to be experienced to believe.


--------------

I got the Cerwin Vega plugged in bridged to three nearfield subs at 3ohm load. Nearfield is nice now, VERY nice.
--------------


dgage, these ultimax UM18-24 subs should best the SI 18HT slightly --- but yes I know what you are saying. One counter point - I've heard a pair of JTR ported caps vs. a pair of sealed LMS-5400 at Gorilla83s. It wasn't close. Not that it should be when comparing output ported vs. sealed two on two - but the LMS 5400 pair in sealed boxes fell hard to the ported JTR Captivators in regards to clean output. @popalock brought the LMS-5400 to the meet - they were in his wolly mammoth boxes.






------------
This is the first time I've had all my subs properly powered. Going to take a break --- since I just got it setup and will give it some demo time this week.

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post #398 of 400 Unread Today, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
A pair of orbit shifters pretty much has to be experienced to believe.


--------------

I got the Cerwin Vega plugged in bridged to three nearfield subs at 3ohm load. Nearfield is nice now, VERY nice.
--------------

dgage, these ultimax UM18-24 subs should best the SI 18HT slightly --- but yes I know what you are saying. One counter point - I've heard a pair of JTR ported caps vs. a pair of sealed LMS-5400 at Gorilla83s. It wasn't close. Not that it should be when comparing output ported vs. sealed two on two - but the LMS 5400 pair in sealed boxes fell hard to the ported JTR Captivators in regards to clean output. @popalock brought the LMS-5400 to the meet - they were in his wolly mammoth boxes.

------------
This is the first time I've had all my subs properly powered. Going to take a break --- since I just got it setup and will give it some demo time this week.
Ahhh yes. Looking back on that experience... I don't know if the LMS-U's could have been anymore nutered. Remember the graphs you took? I brought the LMS-U's in different sized boxes to see what the real world response difference would look like. ~2.5ft^3 box was down a notable about from the 4.2ft^3 box:


If I only knew then, what I know now... I could have at least saved myself several hours of laboring to make a box last minute and just ran the sim in winISD...lol/

Learned a lot since that GTG. If I could have done it all over again, the LMS-U's would have had a MUCH better showing.

That said, they STILL would have been dominated by the Caps...

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How does the um18-22 in a Marty/Mini Marty box compare to the JTR Caps?

I'm wanting to build two near field end tables, sealed, using FTW-21's... To pair along with my two um18-22 mini Marty's... But instead of another 6000dsp, I'm debating on getting a lab grupen clone... But I'm not sure if that's the way to go...
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post #400 of 400 Unread Today, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Ahhh yes. Looking back on that experience... I don't know if the LMS-U's could have been anymore nutered. Remember the graphs you took? I brought the LMS-U's in different sized boxes to see what the real world response difference would look like. ~2.5ft^3 box was down a notable about from the 4.2ft^3 box:


If I only knew then, what I know now... I could have at least saved myself several hours of laboring to make a box last minute and just ran the sim in winISD...lol/

Learned a lot since that GTG. If I could have done it all over again, the LMS-U's would have had a MUCH better showing.

That said, they STILL would have been dominated by the Caps...

I agree with you completely, I've learned a ton in the last year...and still have a ton to learn. I think I know enough to start a sub company...we shall see.

And when I took my LMS-5400s to Beasts and put the pair against the HS24, they were bested by the single HS24. But later I put 4,000w to each instead of 2,400w and that really made a difference. The HS24 might have still won but it would have been close, at least above 15Hz.
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