Bought four sealed 18" cabinets on a wild hare - Direct me to a driver setup at least competitive or superior to JTR Captivators... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 11:31 AM
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You know.... I don't think I've ever seen Archaea's room. How big is it? What's the thought of maybe picking up four UXL-18's and use them in these new cabs but with his Caps still running?

I would maybe say, let's add in these sealed 18's and use them as the ultimate near-field/rear sub system and blend them in with his caps? That would bump the intensity by a huge factor. It could also allow for a palpable sensation of <20hz (especially if he uses a riser). So he will get the best of all the worlds. He keeps his couch giggling Cap performance plus he will have the benefits of the sealed system (and put his newly paid for sealed cabs to use wink.gif) and then some.

Seems like a good fit for someone who may not be ready to dump his ideally performing current system for another that may not meet expectations but also requires a HEFTY $4,000 investment. All on our word. I get it. Sounds like a tough decision to me and a costly one at that.

UXL-18's would get him >90% of the performance of the Ultra's for half the price. Not a bad idea to consider.

I just want Archaea to be happy. biggrin.gif


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post #92 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
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You know.... I don't think I've ever seen Archaea's room. How big is it?

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post #93 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL

DD is right!


My theater room?
Here is an old vid -- most of the gear has swapped, speakers, screen, subs, projector, rack etc, --- but room dimensions haven't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSNz7tj1BVs

Nothing too special, but it serves my purposes.
Room is about 21' wide at widest, 7' tall, and about 25' deep.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #94 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 02:34 PM
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---
Deleted passage due to misquote.
---


Are you sure about this? Data-bass measures at 2m and I am pretty sure the numbers presented on the web-page is not recalculated for 1m. I have asked about this some where else but didn't receive a clear answer so I might be wrong, but i think you should add 6db to the numbers from data-bass before comparing them to a sim model or to 1m data/spec. Any thoughts on this?
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post #95 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 02:47 PM
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Sim models to x-max to the operating range you wish to use it with. The distortions are not part of the equations so I use D-B's max long term sweeps which come closer to sims. Add 6 dBs and they are close. Data-bass measures to 10hz so target x-max at 10hz(DIY sealed anyways). I model to 5 hz to get an idea for my room so I sim everything and then being that info to databass to get an idea of the whole profile. Or you could buy the magico sub and be done! I mean game over right. Oh wait, they might be over estimating a bit.
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post #96 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 03:25 PM
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"Are you sure about this? Data-bass measures at 2m and I am pretty sure the numbers presented on the web-page is not recalculated for 1m. I have asked about this some where else but didn't receive a clear answer so I might be wrong, but i think you should add 6db to the numbers from data-bass before comparing them to a sim model or to 1m data/spec. Any thoughts on this?"

that's right on. data-bass numbers are 2m results. for 1m comparability add 6db to them.

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post #97 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 04:21 PM
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data-bass numbers are 2m results. for 1m comparability add 6db to them.
Then put the TH18H+ subs closer to the listening position. biggrin.gif
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post #98 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 04:44 PM
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Four up close would be intense!


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post #99 of 375 Old 09-19-2013, 04:54 PM
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i would like to see a quad set of ported td18h's go up against anything in a home theater subwoofer shootout.

when you can cross them up to 350hz (or higher) with little to no problem, that opens the door to many possibilities.

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post #100 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 10:05 AM
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I will eventually get a TD18H Apollo tested for DB but I have not had good luck this far. Both had bad coils on the first shipment, so they were returned a few months later. Specs measured ok and both seemed fine when returned however the very first gig with one of them in the bass guitar rig the coil started stinking really bad again and now it has an odd distortion almost like scraping or something.Sounded great until that. I am beginning to wonder how much power these can actually handle because it was only a 1400w amp and it was not clipping at all so somewhat less power than that and the standard non-apollo driver is rated at 1000w program. So after one gig and one practice that cab is sitting there with one of the TD18's again. I haven't even taken the time to remove it to check the driver yet cause it kinda depresses me. The other one is in the box and I guess it will get measured but I don't have much hope of it surviving the DB measurements if its brother is any indication. Maybe it's another issue with the coil supplier again, I don't know at this point. I haven't even contacted John about it.

It is a good sounding driver but it is not a 5400 and vice versa. Completely different drivers. 5400 probably = at least 2 TD18's in the deep bass
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post #101 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I will eventually get a TD18H Apollo tested for DB but I have not had good luck this far. Both had bad coils on the first shipment, so they were returned a few months later. Specs measured ok and both seemed fine when returned however the very first gig with one of them in the bass guitar rig the coil started stinking really bad again and now it has an odd distortion almost like scraping or something.Sounded great until that. I am beginning to wonder how much power these can actually handle because it was only a 1400w amp and it was not clipping at all so somewhat less power than that and the standard non-apollo driver is rated at 1000w program. So after one gig and one practice that cab is sitting there with one of the TD18's again. I haven't even taken the time to remove it to check the driver yet cause it kinda depresses me. The other one is in the box and I guess it will get measured but I don't have much hope of it surviving the DB measurements if its brother is any indication. Maybe it's another issue with the coil supplier again, I don't know at this point. I haven't even contacted John about it.

It is a good sounding driver but it is not a 5400 and vice versa. Completely different drivers. 5400 probably = at least 2 TD18's in the deep bass

That is exactly why Mach 5 winds their own coils on a per sub basis instead of mass China crap.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #102 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 10:56 AM
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Doesn't AE hand build their VC's? Thought they just got some of the hard steel fab'd from China.


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post #103 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 12:15 PM
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Here is the post where someone asked about the sealed box use and my reply. The quote in post #94 is not right so it appears like I was the one who made some addditional claims that I had not made.

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3337&p=15711

In a sealed enclosure, output is determined primarily by enclosure size and input power. In the case of the LMS5400, it has more excursion and handle more power allowing it to get much louder when output is excursion limited. However, when excursion limits don't come into play, the TD18H+ will have huge advantages. You can see how both drivers compare in a 5cf sealed enclosure here:



At 20hz, the TD18H+ is limited to 700W to stay within the 14mm Xmax range. In reality the suspension is good to nearly 25mm one way so it is not unreasonable to put in 1000W. At 20hz, the TD18H+ has about a 1.7dB advantage in efficiency. At 100Hz it has a 6dB advantage. At 100hz this means the LMS5400 needs 2800W to reach the same level of the TD18H+ with only 700w. This alone is a massive advantage in keeping distortion low. Factor in the issues related to Le(i) (flux modulation) and the distortion created when putting that much current into the coil and the TD18H+ has a huge advantage as long as the output at 20Hz is enough.

Ricci, I will send an email to you. Something still isn't right if that happened again. I have not experienced any of those issues with over 250 standard TD18H+ that are in the field now. We have a sound company based in Chicago market that is using 20 of them in EV Xline Sub boxes. They do sound for EDM events and festivals. They kept destroying the EVX180B's on a monthly basis. They tried the TD18H+ in 10 dual 18 cabinets back in June. Each cabinet is run off a bridged Crest 8001 (2800w 4ohm bridged) and run full out to clipping for weekend long festivals at times. They have not had a failure. Elite Audio has been running individual TD18's off 2500W Lab Gruppen channels from the FP+10000 with no burnt or shorted coils in nearly 3 years now. He has 24 drivers in the field and swtiched to the TD18's after having failures with the B&C 18BTX1000. Another local sound company is using a bridged Itech 6000 per cabinet with some PAS dual 18 cabinets now housing the TD18H+. This is 5000W bridged per pair of drivers. He has had 16 drivers in the field for over a year now without a coil failure after having continual failures with the RCF 18's that were in the cabinet. These are drivers used 4-7 days a week and abused for hours on end. I can't imagine you are pushing these nearly as hard as they do.

These are all non-apollo option woofers. The apollo should only increase the thermal power handling. Something is either not right with the coils as we found in the first batch from Precision, or something else is happening. I would like to get you a non-apollo version to try out for comparison. There may be something with the gluing of the apollo rings and either the glue coming into the gap, or solvent from the glue causing issues with the VC adhesive. I definitely want to find out what the issue is though.
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post #104 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 12:19 PM
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thanks for the data from the field ricci.

i assume the (more expensive) bms are holding up?

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post #105 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
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That is exactly why Mach 5 winds their own coils on a per sub basis instead of mass China crap.
Quote:
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Doesn't AE hand build their VC's? Thought they just got some of the hard steel fab'd from China.

We have never purchased a voice coil from China. They have all been wound by Precision Econowind in Florida since the first driver I made back in 2005. Prior to that they also wound all of the Lambda coils back to 1999 when Lambda was started. Precision also did all TC coils for the LMS and their others drivers until production of all TC drivers went to China. I actually had an opportunity to get a $20,000 computer operated coil winder for about $1500 a few years back when Rockford's plant in MI closed. I declined to purchase it though. Precision Econowind is one of the best, if not THE best in the world at winding coils. Attempting to do this on my own would have little to no benefit when they know far more than I do about coil winding and have always been reliable.

Also to note, the coils for Ricci were a custom lot of 8pcs. We have never ordered a production run of the TD18 Apollo coils in higher quantity yet. Typically the sample lots match identically to their high volume production runs. We have Precision hold very tight tolerances and pay accordingly for this. The initial samples apparently got scratched somehow when being pressed off the mandrel used to wind them. Until I get to investigate more, I can't comment on the current ones.

We do everything we can here in America. Cones and foam or cloth surrounds come from WI or KY. Coils come from FL. We produce our own santoprene surrounds with a thermoformer I designed and built myself. The santoprene roll is extruded in TN. We are setting up to spin our own aluminum cones here rather than going to the previous vendor in Santa Barbara CA. Phase plugs are machined by a local shop in Green Bay. We also have them CNC machining 1/2" thick 6061 aluminum to assemble custom modular 15" frames for our high end clients. All of our injection molding for gaskets, spider spacers, etc is done in Indiana. Our copper for shorting rings is drawn in MI. We machine every piece of steel here in our shop. To date this year, 75% of all top plates and T-yokes were made from US sourced bar stock and fully machined here. The additional 25% is rough forged overseas but machined to tolerance here. Every steel part is then zinc plated in Milwaukee or Oshkosh. All anodizing is done locally in Green Bay. Our foam for packaging comes from Madison. Boxes are made here in Green Bay. We do our best to not to be "mass China crap."
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post #106 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 01:00 PM
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Here is the post where someone asked about the sealed box use and my reply. The quote in post #94 is not right so it appears like I was the one who made some addditional claims that I had not made.

.....

I am sorry about that. Didn't notice some of the post i quoted got snipped off. I just pushed the "quote" button. The full post i quoted is #78.
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post #107 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 01:36 PM
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I am sorry about that. Didn't notice some of the post i quoted got snipped off. I just pushed the "quote" button. The full post i quoted is #78.

No problem. I just wanted to clarify. smile.gif
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post #108 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 02:24 PM
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No problem. I just wanted to clarify. smile.gif

Thanks for popping in for the clarifications, John. smile.gif


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post #109 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 07:10 PM
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Archaea,

 

I have to agree with MK and others. 4 LMS-U's (or any 18in sealed) aren't going to move the needle for you for a few reasons, IMO:

 

  1. The output at the Caps sweet spot (20hz) is pretty much going to be on par with the LMS-U's. (ULF score of 547 for the LMS-U vs 565 for the Cap @ 20hz, for those following my thread along).
  2. You're likely going to get a cleaner sound at 20hz from the LMS-U because of overall lower THD. The lower THD will likely contribute to comparative impressions like 'something's missing' from both a tactile sensation (because of less 2nd, 3rd, etc. harmonic distortion) and output standpoint
  3. You'll likely perceive in your situation that this clean output compared to higher THD output only starts to 'sound' better if you have it in spades (since you're comparing to an incumbent sub). Otherwise, you'll revert to expressions like "I just felt like something was missing", or "I prefer the sound and tactile sensation of ported"

 

IMO, to distinctively convince you, you'll need 6-8 LMS-U's (or halving your ULF score) or equivalent subwoofage.

 

Instead of buying, building, and selling the LMS-Us: use the money you would have lost on the sale (and effort) and buy an airplane ticket and visit MK or poppa. Listen to a 5 star system and make your judgement. After that experience, you would have at least answered your question: Is it worth it? Once you determine that, it's just about time and money. You'll know the recipe to get to 5 star ULF.

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post #110 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 07:30 PM
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another option:
buy 2 lms drivers to test against 1 cap.
decide sealed offers no advantage.
build 2 medium-large enclosures for the lms drivers.
sell the sealed boxes as the cost of the experiment.
:-)

oh snap, what about an lms martysub?!?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347



that enclosure actually would rock with the lms ultra driver!

response with 3600 watts (such as you might find from a bridged cv5000 amp :-) ):


max spl:


marty attacks again!


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post #111 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 07:49 PM
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You forgot one LTD02:

Sell the LMS 5400 without enclosures to DGage.

There, we're all happy...until I get bitten by the bug as the virus permeates the subs I bought from Archea.
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post #112 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 08:04 PM
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what subs did you buy from archaea?

i suggested that you might like to give the uxl driver a shot...great bang for the buck, and guess what...it works great in the marty sub!

here it is well within excursion limits and on 2200 watts (which is one half of an inuke 6000 dsp btw) :-):



all... these... marty subs...


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post #113 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 08:05 PM
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He already has high output ported subs and they are awesome small enclosures for their extension and output! I was amazed on the size of those things for an 18! He has heard Carps system with 8 sealed drivers. I know hearing different rooms and setups are quite different so hearing the multiple sealed systems and caps in the same room is the way to go.
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post #114 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 08:48 PM
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^^yeah...but he only has two. :-)~

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post #115 of 375 Old 09-20-2013, 09:16 PM
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I'm waiting for the LMS 5400s to get back in stock late Nov. I want the best sound quality subs available to go with the JTR Noesis 212HT-LPs I ordered. I thought about the UXL18s but couldn't find a SQ comparison to the LMS 5400. Also, I wouldn't save money because I'd likely go with 6 UXL18s vs 3 LMS 5400s. I ordered a SpeakerPower SP2-8000 to power them.

So I didn't buy any subs from Archea but if he buys the LMS 5400s and then decides to sell them, I'll be all over it.
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post #116 of 375 Old 09-21-2013, 02:50 AM
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roger.

I made some significant updates to post 18 here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347

toward the bottom is a diy plan that uses home depot handy panels and only requires cross cuts, so except for the driver cutouts, you should be able to go to home depot and come home with a kit for the cost of 2 sheets of mdf or ply. :-)
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post #117 of 375 Old 09-21-2013, 04:09 AM
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I wish I would of had a mock like this when I was deciding what route to go. I really like the black front with the two shades instead of a black top. Very nice looking sub imo, very nice.



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post #118 of 375 Old 09-21-2013, 08:13 AM
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John thanks for the reply...Didn't mean to put you on the spot or anything I have been to busy to really think about it lately. So far the td15M apollos I bought are operating flawless. The TD18 sounds really good with a top end noticeably better than even the 2242hpl or the triple shorting BMS which is a very nice woofer actually. We aren't getting any real excursion out of the TD woof for bass guitar and like I said we really aren't giving it that much power especially compared to something like EDM in a club so that makes me think something is up.I really haven't investigated that driver though. We noticed a faint distortion that was not present with other cabs last time we hooked it up. Similar to debris in the gap or scraping possibly. I will try and look into it next week and give you some info.


LTD02 yes the BMS, 2242HPL and various 4x10 cabs with VERY cheap drivers have run without issue in the same rig. Points to something not being right...


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post #119 of 375 Old 09-21-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

He already has high output ported subs and they are awesome small enclosures for their extension and output! I was amazed on the size of those things for an 18! He has heard Carps system with 8 sealed drivers. I know hearing different rooms and setups are quite different so hearing the multiple sealed systems and caps in the same room is the way to go.

 

Yes, this is the best way...comparing in your own space.

 
Instead of building/buying those subs, maybe archaea can convince his neighbors to bring their sealed subs and amps over to get an equivalent 4/6/8 LMS-U output? :D


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post #120 of 375 Old 10-17-2013, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Carp let me borrow four of his SI 18's to play with in the next few days.
A local guy I just ran into on hometheatershack has a pair of LMS-5400 ultras that I'm hoping to borrow a demo session with too.

Perhaps even a informal meet between the pair of caps, a pair of LMS-5400, and a quad set of the SI 18's.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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