Bought four sealed 18" cabinets on a wild hare - Direct me to a driver setup at least competitive or superior to JTR Captivators... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 12:05 AM
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forgot to mention the most important thing here...GREAT WORK GUYS!

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post #182 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

The cheap solution here: stop bothering with worrying about <20hz output from sealed. Just improve what is there.

Buy four Dayton 18's, apply to already paid for sealed enclosures and set all of them to nearfield. Maybe two per side, all four behind couch. Whatever works. This allows our boy Archaea to use what he bought already, get some real nice 18's that will surely up the intensity in his theater by a large factor. Easy single amp hookup/purchase. At least at first.

Want even more intensity for the cheap? Also build a riser for your main seats. If you don't have one already, I mean. Sorry, I still don't know a whole lot about your theater. redface.gif

That being said, something needs to be done here. I've been following your posts now, Archaea, for at least a couple years now. I know you love your Cap's (they are nice) but you have always wondered what is on the other side of the fence. I'm not going to break it down and honestly I feel like you don't need to keep chasing after lower extension because every time you prefer the Caps. Doesn't bother me at all but let's stop beating around the bush. You ARE interested. Either go for it or maybe think about buying one or two more Caps. You obviously like them a lot and you OBVIOUSLY have the desire for more. We all get infected.

But again.... let's do this already. biggrin.gif

Soo... what do you think of using these awesome cabs up close? Dump some decent power on them and I think you'd be happy for another long while.

+1 on this approach.

Also, "if" you decide to sell the Dayton's down the road, you have a much better chance of recouping your investment.

 

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post #183 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post


My floor is suspended. With my infinite baffle system it is the only way I can detect anything below 15 Hz. However, it does very little to add to the content when below 15 Hz is played by itself. A little thump/vibration here or there. I don't think it makes a noticeable difference at all when there is already bass above 15 Hz shaking the room.

Too easy! Play the WOTW or the OHF demo scenes with a 15Hz hpf, then without....

Let us know if you notice a difference.

SCIENCE!!!

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Austin, we watched the hulk cop car scene multiple times on each setup. I liked that scene pretty equally. We did not listen to the war of the scene. Its a great scene, but I think we've all seen it hundreds of times, so we unthoughtfully skipped it.


I've heard that WOTW scene on lots of different setups in all the meets I've attended, and I've historically watched the caps win or receive very high scores on every occasion.

The one track that was clearly better in our demo time on the four sealed si was the Battle LA clip, with the 50 cal humvee fire in the tunnel. It was very heavy, thick, yet stacatto whomp whomp whomp beats with the sealed. The caps shots were not as tactile or distinct for each bullet. Overall I agree though that the caps are more tactile with most stuff and knowing that I can turn them up much louder is the kingpin for me. My biggest beef with the four sealed was at the spl level they ran out of gas in my room. It was below reference by about 3 dB in my room, when the crown 5000 watt amp started clipping. The caps are just getting started at that level. Sure you could lessen the low end boost, but as I've said before, then you lose the advantage of the ULF you are pursuing. My room doesn't seem that cooperative with sealed. Austin, I'd love to hear your setup. Carps with eight is outright impressive/ridiculous.

Near field might work. You think the daytons would have more resell value than the lms or uxl?

I personally think if the caps were tuned to about 15hz with both ports open, they'd be just about the best sub setup one could buy. With the current port configuration 15hz tune (1 port plugged), port chuffing occurs lower volume than both ports open and I like the ability to turn them up on demand.

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post #184 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:54 AM
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post #185 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

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Near field might work. You think the daytons would have more resell value than the lms or uxl?

.
.
.



Yes, a LOT more people out there are willing to drop ~200$ on a sub vs 500 or 900
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post #186 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 07:13 AM
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An interesting pursuit, but I think you guys figured out that you didn't have enough displacement or power to overcome the ported Caps' distinct advantage around its tuning. I agree with LTD02, and I think the outcome changes considerably if you swap out the SI with LMS Ultras and power them fully. I'm also curious to look at the compression profile of the sealed setup used for testing.

Also, it's really indistinct to me on the OM graphs because of their stretching, but I wonder what your signal chain's roll off looks like. I think that may have a role to play.

In the future, it'd be great to record a real-time SpecLab analysis of what's being played back, compared with the digital content on the disc, so you'd have a visual record of why one setup seems better on some content than the other when EQd roughly the same in the Cap's bandwidth This would be illuminating. I suspect LTD's comments re: BL, coupled with signal chain roll off, are the explanatory variables.
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post #187 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 07:21 AM
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Hey guys, did you guys take frequency sweeps of each system at 120 dBs or 115 dBs. Maybe the reason they were very similar on the low stuff was because the sealed system was compressing the low stuff and made it sound like a 18hz tuned ported sub? You need to rule out everything. Just because one has a flat response to 5 hz at 90 dBs does not mean they will at 120 dBs. This is where these 8x18 systems come into play.

Also, the effects of the room are part of the fun and in real life would be the same way. If I take away the low stuff I lose that full, weighty, feeling you get from the good movies that others don't have. There is a reason why the 5 star bass movies sound awesome. There are plenty of movies that have very loud and as loud as the 5 star bass movies with 20hz and above but they are just not as good overall.

Take a look at DB and how sealed subs compress at louder limits, they start looking like ported subs and the only way to be sure it stays flat at loud levels is to have enough of them for your room and levels.
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post #188 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

forgot to mention the most important thing here...GREAT WORK GUYS!

Thanks John, but it's a lot more play than work! biggrin.gif

BTW... we both got in trouble for too much play time.
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post #189 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey guys, did you guys take frequency sweeps of each system at 120 dBs or 115 dBs. Maybe the reason they were very similar on the low stuff was because the sealed system was compressing the low stuff and made it sound like a 18hz tuned ported sub? You need to rule out everything. Just because one has a flat response to 5 hz at 90 dBs does not mean they will at 120 dBs. This is where these 8x18 systems come into play.

Also, the effects of the room are part of the fun and in real life would be the same way. If I take away the low stuff I lose that full, weighty, feeling you get from the good movies that others don't have. There is a reason why the 5 star bass movies sound awesome. There are plenty of movies that have very loud and as loud as the 5 star bass movies with 20hz and above but they are just not as good overall.

Take a look at DB and how sealed subs compress at louder limits, they start looking like ported subs and the only way to be sure it stays flat at loud levels is to have enough of them for your room and levels.


We never have enough time to do everything we want to... like I said we got in trouble as is.

Good idea though, it was shocking to me how quickly the amp was clipping with the 10db low shelf boost so I'm sure a lot of compression was going on down low. With 10db's of LT boost in my room I can go way over reference with 4 SI's. Not sure if there is a difference between a low shelf and LT but I'm guessing not and it's all the room.
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post #190 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 08:25 AM
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We never have enough time to do everything we want to... like I said we got in trouble as is.

Good idea though, it was shocking to me how quickly the amp was clipping with the 10db low shelf boost so I'm sure a lot of compression was going on down low. With 10db's of LT boost in my room I can go way over reference with 4 SI's. Not sure if there is a difference between a low shelf and LT but I'm guessing not and it's all the room.

Exactly, every room is different and why I tell Archaea he needs at least 4-6 sealed 30mm 18 inch drivers like the caps. He is used to that at 20hz! With 4 cabs he needs the LMS 5400! The UXL-18 will be close. If he wants to use the SI he needs at least 8 in his room. When Madaeel listened to my system with little 12's he said he never heard anything like that, it is all about the room! I am willing to bet that even if he listened to a LLT tuned to 12hz with extension to 10hz with UXL drivers he would be convinced of the low stuff because the port is an automatic boost down low.
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post #191 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 09:18 AM
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Did you use the 4 sealed with the caps in the room? Just wonder if the caps was working as bass absorbers or not...?
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post #192 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 11:04 AM
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Though it maybe pride of diy .... I must say though that these 4 sealed Dayton's with CV5000 amp sound pretty phenomenal. They are sugar sweet with any music and fade away and come to life as close as I could imagine the artist intended their music to be replicated. You can't fault any audiophile wanting sealed enclosures. The allure of output is tempting with the caps that's the only thing that's really keeping me guessing.

Just need to do a fan mod or move this amp to another room.
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post #193 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 11:52 AM
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"Not sure if there is a difference between a low shelf and LT but I'm guessing not and it's all the room."

for this purpose, no difference.

technically, an LT transforms the q of the sub to 0.707, applies a 12 db/oct q=0.707 shelf filter, then transforms the q of the sub to whatever the final target is, if something other than 0.707 is desired.

those drivers in those sealed cabs are essentially q=0.707 to start with and so just adding the shelf filter gives substantially the same outcome.

----

by the way, are there a lot of large glass windows in archaea's 'theatre room'? i seem to recall something like that from one of the old pics that i saw, but i don't remember. such could be sucking out a ton of bass energy, which is good from a "minimizing modal buildup" point of view and helps smooth frequency response, but not so great from a total spl in room coming from the subs.
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post #194 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Not sure if there is a difference between a low shelf and LT but I'm guessing not and it's all the room."

for this purpose, no difference.

technically, an LT transforms the q of the sub to 0.707, applies a 12 db/oct q=0.707 shelf filter, then transforms the q of the sub to whatever the final target is, if something other than 0.707 is desired.

those drivers in those sealed cabs are essentially q=0.707 to start with and so just adding the shelf filter gives substantially the same outcome.

----

by the way, are there a lot of large glass windows in archaea's 'theatre room'? i seem to recall something like that from one of the old pics that i saw, but i don't remember. such could be sucking out a ton of bass energy, which is good from a "minimizing modal buildup" point of view and helps smooth frequency response, but not so great from a total spl in room coming from the subs.


I just checked my mbm, actually I have a 7db gain L/T instead of the 10db's that I was thinking, but not enough difference to matter that much.

He does have a sliding glass door at the back of the room, but he also has a full stair case that is enclosed and if you are on the stairs there is a TON of bass and obviously the ceiling/walls in the stair case go up really high since it's a full stair case. Could he be losing a lot of bass there too? Oh yeah, he also has a fireplace/chimney down there too.

Something is going on in that room because sq ft isn't much bigger than mine.
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post #195 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 02:17 PM
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I just checked my mbm, actually I have a 7db gain L/T instead of the 10db's that I was thinking, but not enough difference to matter that much.

He does have a sliding glass door at the back of the room, but he also has a full stair case that is enclosed and if you are on the stairs there is a TON of bass and obviously the ceiling/walls in the stair case go up really high since it's a full stair case. Could he be losing a lot of bass there too? Oh yeah, he also has a fireplace/chimney down there too.

Something is going on in that room because sq ft isn't much bigger than mine.

What, 3 dBs is not much difference? You said it clips the amp, 3 dBs is doubling the power required. All the data is pointing to the subs not being linear down low so he was comparing a limited sealed system to his caps. The LT is required to extend the response of sealed subs and if the amp clips it is not happening properly. More subs please! biggrin.gif
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post #196 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 02:27 PM
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What, 3 dBs is not much difference? You said it clips the amp, 3 dBs is doubling the power required. All the data is pointing to the subs not being linear down low so he was comparing a limited sealed system to his caps. The LT is required to extend the response of sealed subs and if the amp clips it is not happening properly. More subs please! biggrin.gif

Yeah I know but I meant that 4 SI's can get way more than 3 db's louder in my room than Archaea's room before any clipping happens so it's a lot more than just a difference of 3db's of boost moore with the minidsp at his house vs. mine.
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post #197 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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Yes, a LOT more people out there are willing to drop ~200$ on a sub vs 500 or 900

+1

@Archaea,

You posted up a WTB add in the classifieds for $700 per LMS-U, that's $225 less than what PE charges. Clearly there is no way you loose anything close to that if you went with the SI's or HO's.

The UXL seems like a happy medium though. If I were in your shoes and had to limit myself to 4 subs, that is the route I would go.

LOVED my LMS-U's with a passion, but never felt 100% comfortable with pushing it past 10 for fear of a $500 mistake.

I think you would really enjoy 4 super subs, but let's be honest... No 4 subs in a sealed alignment is going to be enough for you.

Side note - 1 GH = 4 Sealed LMS-U's between like 16-32Hz IIRC. So if you did decide to go the LMS-U route that would be a fun option (as few others have already pointed out).

4 GH in your room would be the most ridiculous woofage in the country...lol

 

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post #198 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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...chesire cat grin...

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post #199 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 04:08 PM
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I believe Seaton said archaea's space loads like a 7000+ cube room after one of the meets i think. I wasn't there for setup but caps were in 20 hz tune. Imo <15 hz in that room with quad si was not useable, except for vibrating some items in room. How much does signal chain matter when lpf'ing above 12hz and taking amp to clipping? Those low notes in bass i love you sure moved the drivers and excited his sliding glass door, but not me. This is coming from a guy who thinks <30hz that the commercial theaters can't reproduce is a huge part of the home theater fun factor. It was for fun and we got time limited so my exploration of the depths continue.cool.gif

The bl and headroom explanation of the differences seems solid as well LTD. Have enjoyed the discussion from this mini gtg.

I think a fun mini gtg on a monster sealed system on a concrete slab would be to attempt to establish an equal feel curve. biggrin.gif
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post #200 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 04:11 PM
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Another interesting comparison for more perspective:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

just for comparison...

it would take about SIX of the same UXL drivers, in 4 cubic foot sealed enclosures each, driven by a massive 6,000 watts of total power to hit 123db at 20hz under the same conditions.

:-)

Post is here.

 

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post #201 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I believe Seaton said archaea's space loads like a 7000+ cube room after one of the meets i think. I wasn't there for setup but caps were in 20 hz tune. Imo <15 hz in that room with quad si was not useable, except for vibrating some items in room. How much does signal chain matter when lpf'ing above 12hz and taking amp to clipping? Those low notes in bass i love you sure moved the drivers and excited his sliding glass door, but not me. This is coming from a guy who thinks <30hz that the commercial theaters can't reproduce is a huge part of the home theater fun factor. It was for fun and we got time limited so my exploration of the depths continue.cool.gif

The bl and headroom explanation of the differences seems solid as well LTD. Have enjoyed the discussion from this mini gtg.

I think a fun mini gtg on a monster sealed system on a concrete slab would be to attempt to establish an equal feel curve. biggrin.gif

Nice. Bring on the 24's!

 

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post #202 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 05:39 PM
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Hmm all this talk has got me thinking, I might have to do a comparison myself. I've got 8) sealed SI 18s and 2) 15hz native tune captivators with a sanway FP14K on amp duty.
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post #203 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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You run all at the same time normally?

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post #204 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 05:59 PM
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I did for a bit, but the caps were mainly used as nearfield subs and man were they tactile. Since then I've changed out my seating so they aren't in use.
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post #205 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Hmm all this talk has got me thinking, I might have to do a comparison myself. I've got 8) sealed SI 18s and 2) 15hz native tune captivators with a sanway FP14K on amp duty.

I would definitely like to see this if you end up doing it.
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post #206 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:05 PM
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Ok I'll do it. Just gotta move two big a$$ towers out of the way.
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post #207 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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gpmbc,

With just four budget 18's I almost certainly would do they opposite positioning if I ran both sets at once. The Caps would be kept up front. I love the 'wind' effect. The sealed would be put nearfield --- that way they wouldn't have to be run as hard to keep up with the caps -- which can certainly handle more power/volume across the audible board. For those $250 drivers - the price is tolerable and I wouldn't have to sell the caps to rationalize my purchase, which I makes me happy. The caps are awesome for quick grab and go g2g's.

Austin,

My thoughts on losing money with the Dayton vs. LMS were just this. The Dayton subs in a nice box are just Dayton subs in a nice box. Most guys who buy daytons are happy with DIY flat packs and don't want to pay extra for a nicer box. (heck I'd be happy with flat pack boxes too - I'm not worried about fancy finishes)....But the guys who buy LMS-5400 drivers would typically like a nice looking box to match. (I'm ignoring your wolly mammoth boxes at this junction. wink.gif ) Anyhow -- I was figuring that since I got such a good deal on the boxes, I could possibly sell the LMS-5400 drivers with the very nice cabs for pretty much what I paid for the setup.

LMS-5400 normally $926 + Box (cost the guy I bought them from $460 each from the cabinet maker that makes Mark Seaton's cabs and he had to buy 16 to get that price) He sold them to me for just under $300 each including my gas cost driving across the state to pick them up. So I figured I could sell the completed ensemble for ~$1200 each (probably) and not really lose anything to worry about).

If you buy four LMS-5400 drivers at once Parts Express charges $879 per driver. four Dayton drivers are $233 per driver.

If the UXL-18's track record has picked up for reliability I still might consider that route. HuskerOmaha confirmed I could swap out my caps for his four UXL-18 for a month or two if I drove them up to his place. In that vein I could hear what UXL-18's sounded like in my room. I've toyed with that idea, for the last month since he offered, but not yet took him up on it. (I think he is a closet cap lover - and this isn't really a favor meant for me.)

I have half a mind to just save a bunch of money and time and sell off the nice boxes. carp already claimed them mid next year if I don't keep them. He has eight SI and one of the most powerful systems I've ever experienced and wants more. This hobby is borderline addiction.

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post #208 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Ok I'll do it. Just gotta move two big a$$ towers out of the way.

Awesome. I appreciate it. I have been going back and forth between some Cap-esque enclosures and going sealed for size. I already have the 4-18's, so now I think I just need to pick one and build. I have a similar issue related to the total cf I have to pressurize. The room I am in opens to every other room in the house with only the bedrooms that can be closed off. Lots of window and a slider on the back wall. i think due to my situation I am leaning toward the higher output potential of 4 over sized Cap like cabs as chasing anything under 20 would be fruitless. I don't want to rule anything out though, thus my interest.
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post #209 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Awesome. I appreciate it. I have been going back and forth between some Cap-esque enclosures and going sealed for size. I already have the 4-18's, so now I think I just need to pick one and build. I have a similar issue related to the total cf I have to pressurize. The room I am in opens to every other room in the house with only the bedrooms that can be closed off. Lots of window and a slider on the back wall. i think due to my situation I am leaning toward the higher output potential of 4 over sized Cap like cabs as chasing anything under 20 would be fruitless. I don't want to rule anything out though, thus my interest.
Our situations are greatly similar. I went from a dedicated room where I could feel everything to an open living room where I do feel for sure but there are some things missing from the previous arrangement.
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post #210 of 314 Old 11-06-2013, 06:39 PM
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Archea, the SI subs are too big for nearfield placement in my living room. Under construction but you get the drift.
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