Bought four sealed 18" cabinets on a wild hare - Direct me to a driver setup at least competitive or superior to JTR Captivators... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 314 Old 09-08-2013, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Bought four sealed 18" cabinets on a wild hare - Direct me to a driver setup at least competitive or superior to JTR Captivators

Just out or morbid curiosity I bought this guys last four cabinets today.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468619/sealed-cabinets-for-tc-sounds-lms-ultra-5400-or-pro-5100#post_23615470

I have a pair of JTR Captivators that I LOVE now. I'd like to put a sealed subwoofer system together using these four cabs and compare the two setups in depth over the course of a couple months. The set I least prefer will most likely get sold, unless I just decide I want to keep them all and run six subs. The JTR Caps are currently my favorite pair of subwoofers I've ever heard, and I've heard nearly all of the most revered subwoofers -- including a pair of LMS 5400 Ultras at tjhubs meet, and at gorilla83's meet. A pair of LMS-5400's couldn't steal my heart away from the caps... but could four? Are the LMS-5400 drivers still King?

I heard HuskerOmaha's 4 UXL-18's at the last Omaha tour and they couldn't steal my heart away from the Caps either. (Though he was timid with the volume and didn't really show me what they were capable of) Is this a lost cause for me? tongue.gif Anything I buy should have decent resale value, because I may well end up keeping the Captivators - so I don't want to toss money at the sealed setup that I won't get at least about 80% or so of it back. This is just a chance to experiment some and verify I do truly like ported the best as I think I do.

Any other driver suggestions? I want these four sealed drivers to at least be on the same performance level as the ported JTR Caps. Meaning...I don't want to loose performance in going to a sealed sub setup. My room is about 3,500 cubic feet and after hosting two different meets at my place I know I have very little helpful room gain down low.

Advice? Part of me thinks just hold onto these sealed cabs until we move to another house (we are house shopping for the last few months) and then place them all four in the room - midwall on all four walls like the Harmon Kardon white papers suggest to get the smoothest sound. That setup won't work in my current room because midwall on the right is the fireplace, and midwall on the rear is the walk out basement sliding door. I love the location of the Captivators now, but perhaps in a different home with the Caps further away the air movement wouldn't be as noticeable or engaging, and the four sub setup would be more appropriate? - - - time will tell.

Amps I have available to power the sealed subs:
Crown XLS-5000
(2) Inuke DSP 3000
EP-4000
and I'm looking to buy the IPR7500 DSP when it comes out in October.

AVR = Onkyo TX-NR1007

Pictures of room are in sig...



Any recommendations on drivers I should be researching?

My 2011 Captivator specs for anyone unfamiliar -
http://web.archive.org/web/20110716030621/http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/captivator-pro/

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post #2 of 314 Old 09-08-2013, 10:40 PM
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here's the problem, the ported picks up several db max spl around the tuning frequency. my guess in this case is around 8db or so. so even doubling up drivers and power for a total of +6db in sealed doesn't exceed that, which is probably why you were unconvinced with the last sealed comparo.

the lms driver may be more linear and that might make a difference, but that would be an expensive comparo 4 lms ultras and about 16,000 watts of power.

max spl, 4kw 18" driver 30mm xmax, ported vs. sealed:


the drivers in the caps are strong motored and have big xmax and really big xmech. the subs have 4kw of power and protective eq (i'm assuming). that is a tough one to beat and for a large room with little to no gain, I don't think sealed is your best shot at it.

now, if you are willing to live with some big lms loaded horn subs...that just might kill the caps.

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post #3 of 314 Old 09-08-2013, 10:49 PM
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S**t yeah. Get some GJALLARHORN's in there and those Caps will be gone. tongue.gif

Nice grab, Archaea. Those are pretty nice enclosures. With little to no modification you can fit most of the standard 18's that are on the market now. Knowing your expectations for bass, I couldn't think of anything short of quad LMS-U's for you. That's expensive though. Maybe consider a pair (or all of these) with some lesser drivers (than the LMS-U) for multi-sub/smoothing part of your subwoofer system and build a couple G-Horns for the main bit.

Yup. smile.gif

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post #4 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 03:28 PM
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I suspect the cutout for other 18s will be different from the TC basket. So if you want them to look right you should use the 5400 or 5100.

Being an Aurasound fanboy, I'd probably pick the Aurasound-knockoff 5100 over the 5400. But that's just me.

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post #5 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Why do you like aurasound?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #6 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 04:02 PM
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because their motor topology is the best.

they use a big magnet, big metal, and little coil.

that makes it the least cost effective for getting BL, but the end result is extremely linear and low/linear inductance.

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post #7 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 04:05 PM
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maybe this helps: http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/aurasound-nrt-whitepaper.pdf

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post #8 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the PDF link - I read through it, but honestly a good portion of it seems like marketing.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=293-674

The sub is currently on sale - so that's nice.

I did a quick web search and results seem to point to the LMS-5400 being preferable for the lowest frequency reproduction while the LMS-5100 would have a bit more midbass. I don't think midbass would be my problem in a 3,500 cubic foot room with four 18's?

I also saw some posts saying the 5100 is better suited for ported sub cabinets. You agree? The great dB efficiency and lighter weight would be nice.

It may be superficial but a cloth wave surround on the 5100 is not nearly as powerful looking as the heavy rubber surround on the LMS-5400. call me shallow - but that's almost a deal breaker to me. wink.gif

5100
l_x.jpg

5400
$(KGrHqUOKpIE6SlL1zouBOleTGJKiw~~60_35.JPG



Edit...

I just found out both subs were reviewed at data-bass - sorry familiar with the site, but not kept up on all the DIY drivers. It would appear when I compare the 5400 to the 5100 that for my purposes in a small sealed 21" cubed box that the LMS-5400 is significantly superior for low frequency reproduction. It isn't until 50 or 60hz that the LMS-5100 takes over. Unless I'm missing something really intriguing - I'm not sure why the 5100 would be a consideration for my use case?

At data-bass when I compare the Dayton 18" to the 5100 there isn't that much difference in native FR...

Am I looking at the right thing here?

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post #9 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 07:34 PM
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WRT the surrounds, when the lights are off, does it really matter?

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post #10 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Performance may well be there - but looks do add in to the whole equation to some degree...Just ask Pontiac!

As to lights off - sure it won't matter - lights on - perhaps it does. You could sit inside that Pontiac GTO and be happy as a clam - 400HP, excellent suspension, good tranny, sporty ride, classy interior --- all around solid engineering. But at some point you get out of the car - and at that moment you think - Dang I'm driving a calvalier. tongue.gif

Full Disclosure: I'd be happy to own a 400HP GTO. wink.gif --- but it serves my illustration point
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post #11 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 08:15 PM
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With those amps, stick with uxl
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post #12 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post



Performance may well be there - but looks do add in to the whole equation to some degree...Just ask Pontiac!

As to lights off - sure it won't matter - lights on - perhaps it does. You could sit inside that Pontiac GTO and be happy as a clam - 400HP, excellent suspension, good tranny, sporty ride, classy interior --- all around solid engineering. But at some point you get out of the car - and at that moment you think - Dang I'm driving a calvalier. tongue.gif

Full Disclosure: I'd be happy to own a 400HP GTO. wink.gif --- but it serves my illustration point

Well except for the fact that the Pontiac GTO is actually just a rebranded Holden Monaro wink.gif

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post #13 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Well except for the fact that the Pontiac GTO is actually just a rebranded Holden Monaro wink.gif
Semantics.

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post #14 of 314 Old 09-11-2013, 11:15 PM
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"Thanks for the PDF link - I read through it, but honestly a good portion of it seems like marketing."

well, it all translates into performance. not just big bass pump, but super clean bass.

at 85-90db from 60hz-500hz distortion is...0.3%.

inductance is so low and well controlled that by 1khz, impedance is only 10 ohms and it doesn't rise to 30 ohms by 20 kHz. that's better than the jbl 2226h and suggests very low intermodulation distortion, i.e. it will be a very clear/clean/detailed driver.

frequency response that is +/- 2db to 2khz and smooth impedance plot with no ripples until about 2khz, suggests no cone breakup problems or surround issues anywhere near the subwoofer pass band.

plots here:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-18-subwoofers/aurasound-ns18-992-4a-18-subwoofer-returning-feb-2012/

the only thing not to like about it is the price and that is typical when dealing with anything that is the best. ymmv.

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post #15 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 07:52 AM
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Well i am not convinced that the caps ports aren't compressing at max output. So while native response the port gives a nice gain, i don't think it would be 8 dB difference at full tilt.

Being friends with archaea, being able to do the ~18-40hz with authority is a bonus. I am not sure the benefits of the 5100 would be of importance to him in his current lossy room and doing comparisons with the caps. Since he is considering a move, waiting to see what a new space is going to do before driver choice may be a good idea. A lot more educated folks in here on the subject than me, so all imo.
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post #16 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Since he is considering a move, waiting to see what a new space is going to do before driver choice may be a good idea. A lot more educated folks in here on the subject than me, so all imo.

If that is true then I would agree. Waiting to see what the new room looks like is a very very good idea.

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post #17 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 10:57 AM
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Man...props to for getting this past the wifey...lol

Bout to drop $5K on some sealed seriousness.

So, I haven't seen anyone else mention this, but the IPR7500 will not be the best match for the LMS-U...unless you rock one sub per amp.

tongue.gif

You've heard it all man... Quad LMS-U's are going to kill, might even impress you. Impress you more than a lot of other setups you've heard? Haha. I doubt it.

 

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post #18 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Man...props to for getting this past the wifey...lol

Bout to drop $5K on some sealed seriousness.

So, I haven't seen anyone else mention this, but the IPR7500 will not be the best match for the LMS-U...unless you rock one sub per amp.

tongue.gif

You've heard it all man... Quad LMS-U's are going to kill, might even impress you. Impress you more than a lot of other setups you've heard? Haha. I doubt it.

Dang it Austin --- what the?

And no I haven't told my wife the drivers I might use in the boxes I don't need might cost upwards of $1k each.

She was mad when I told her I wouldn't be using the Captivator drivers in them because that was what she guessed was going to happen.

In reality I'm probably unwilling to spend $5K on a sub system that doesn't dramatically improve my current enjoyment level - so perhaps this little venture will just go on hold until we move and figure out the next home theater room's requirements, or I'll end up selling the boxes to my local buddy carp who already propositioned me so he can have 12 drivers in his theater. ha... I think carp's out to beat you Austin.

another thing --
I thought the IPR 7500 was pretty well respected by the DIY group for sealed subs these days? Gorilla83 seems to like his. MrSmithers seems to like his. One amp per LMS-5400? --- mercy --- !

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post #19 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 01:31 PM
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Since you have four boxes I'd probably go 1 amp with 4 Acoustic Elegance TB-18H+ drivers. eek.gif This will dramatically improve your enjoyment level . . . at a lower price!

I've owned two different models of Acoustic Elegance drivers and have loved them both.

Then grab another Cap and use them as stands for your Noesis 228HT's. biggrin.gif
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post #20 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Cloth surround again DD...some may call my hesitation unjustified, but all I can picture are my dads old 1980's tower speaker 12" paper woofer driver that the cloth surrounds had dry rotted out. Something about a big rubber or even heavy foam surround seems so much more substantial!

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post #21 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Where's HuskerOmaha when you need him?

GREG! Host a quick shootout at your house in the next couple months. I've got a truck now - - - I'll bring my caps, four of Sheldon's SI 18's, or four of Steven's SI 18's, and four of Kevin's Dayton 18's and we'll line them up against your UXL-18's.

Four way shootout --- (3) four sealed combos vs. dual cap combo.

Michael can you convince Greg this is necessary? I'm going to send him a PM now to grease the skids.

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post #22 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Where's HuskerOmaha when you need him?

GREG! Host a quick shootout at your house in the next couple months. I've got a truck now - - - I'll bring my caps, four of Sheldon's SI 18's, or four of Steven's SI 18's, and four of Kevin's Dayton 18's and we'll line them up against your UXL-18's.

Four way shootout --- (3) four sealed combos vs. dual cap combo.

Michael can you convince Greg this is necessary? I'm going to send him a PM now to grease the skids.
Can we also play them all at once eek.gif . . . and then add a 15 Hz low pass! biggrin.gif

If HuskerOmaha will host and guys don't mind driving an extra 10 miles (round trip), you can also compare to my dual manifold 8 AE IB15 sub system. We could even listen to two systems at HuskerOmaha's, go over to my house for the 3rd system, and finish back at HuskerOmaha's. That would make for less down time because the 4th system can be setup while we listen to the IB system at my house. Hmm, my 6 month GTG ban (or was it a year wink.gif) by my wife is just about up.
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post #23 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course - the 15hz low pass question is something all the KC guys are all curious about. Having 12, 18" drivers in a room ought to answer the question.

GTG bans --- hmppf --- I was nearly at that point myself -- not so much a ban for me - but definately a end of 2012 year talk where my wife clearly said - you cannot go to so many of those events this year. So far in 2013 I've only been to a couple. It's time.

Funny thing is the end of the year might really pick up on the g2g's for the KC folk. We are going to do a speaker G2G in Swope Park again this year, then Jedimastergrant is starting to organize a KC home theater tour (date still being determined), then this little adhoc shootout idea that I'm going to try to champion!

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post #24 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 03:02 PM
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post #25 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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It's getting silly now --- but heck I was just thinking there are three different guys in KC with SI

Carp has 8
Scrappydue has 4
Luke Kamp has 4

With their powers combined we can rival popalock! smile.gif

Throw in HuskerOmaha's (4 UXL-18's) and MrSmithers (4 Dayton 18s) and now you got 24.

Ridiculous....but if we were to pull it off and do some 15hz hpf testing there wouldn't be a single, yes but, that could be uttered anywhere --- if the testing ended conclusively one way or the other.


Heck at that point your getting close to the matterhorn project. ;p

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post #26 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 03:43 PM
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I have to sell my house in 8 months. I'm definitely not allowing 24--18" subs with wizard desertdome and loud crazed archaea in my house.
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post #27 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Greg, for your sake - let's table the 24 sub fantasy and let's get back to simple. Who will host this meet and what do we have to do to ensure four uxl-18s are in the mix?

Selfishly - I've got four empty boxes to fill, and apparently, at least on paper, the odds don't seem to be looking good of besting my caps with four sealed subs without spending buku bucks. Yet I'm curious to hear some live 'same room' demonstrations of how the various options compare to the caps. You gotta admit you are curious too!?!?

How much do four Dayton's do vs four SI? How do four of the $200 - $250 subs do against four $500 UXL-18 subs.
And finally a question for Greg personally -- How much more do you like my Caps than your sealed subs? biggrin.gif

I kid...kind of...


You Omaha boys got any friends out that way with LMS-5400 setups?

DD - a visit to your place would be fun --- I'd like carp to experience the tactile sensation of your IB setup built into the wooden floor! W00lly's place and associated blind testing would probably be great! If you are close friends with him do you mind bridging the question?

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post #28 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Why do you like aurasound?

To add to what LTD wrote, ask Magico.

I only mentioned the TC Sounds knockoff instead of real Aurasound drivers because I know the NS18-992-4A's flange is too big to fit the cutout of your cabinets. If it weren't, you would've only had three cabinets available to buy. wink.gif

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post #29 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

To add to what LTD wrote, ask Magico.

Heheh, we know. wink.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1488992/136-db-at-20-hz-new-magico-qsub-for-the-1-of-the-1

Hahahah! Omg. That makes this Qsub's ad even more funny. Ahhh. Two Aura 18's are something but .... 136dB? Bwahahahahaha!

Sorry, DS. This wasn't a dig at you or your tastes (most of which I agree with) but more so for those of us that got a kick out of their advertising.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #30 of 314 Old 09-12-2013, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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HuskerOmaha,

With twenty four 18" subwoofers do you think we could do this at the top of your stairway? tongue.gifeek.gifcool.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_CEJmn3PZE


Makes you think a bit more about the hair trick videos and what they might be doing to your brain. eek.gif


I found this when looking up lms-5400 videos.



Edit - fixed the link

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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