Need some help designing Sub box for Kicker SoloX 18" and Crown Itech 6000 amp - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 09-10-2013, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

I need some help designing a sub box for my Kicker 18" SoloX subwoofer with a Crown Itech 6000 Amplifer.

Here are the specs of the Sub;



I've Also attached the amplifier specs below;
Crown Itech 6000.pdf 402k .pdf file

Apparently the amp has around 5000w, but I've done the math's, its most likely around 2500w RMS if that.

Now, Kicker recommends an enclosure around 10cu'ft tuned to 35hz. After doing a heap of research, Its come to my attention that the tuning frequency should be around 18-20hz for home theater use.My question being, If I tune the box this low, will it still be good for music? I have Klipsch rf-7 full range tower speakers which produce quite alot of bass themselves.

I've done some modelling with winisd, it seems like 13cuft tuned to 19hz would be good. I must stress, I'm no expert in designing sub boxes, so If someone could check my design and let me know what you think, would be greatly appreciated,

I've attached the winisd file;

SoloX box.zip 1k .zip file

All help is greatly appreciated, Thanks in advance
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Crown Itech 6000.pdf (402.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: zip SoloX box.zip (558 Bytes, 21 views)
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post #2 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 03:50 AM
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20Hz tuning will lose you quite a lot of ULF bass below that point that you can't really hear that well but can instead feel - there's not always that much of it but it does add a tactile feel and 'weight' IMHO.

How much space do you have? You could build a LLT box (Large and Low Tuned) tuned to, say, 11Hz - this would get you a lot more extension, probably into single digits in-room with room gain taken into account.

In either scenario you will need to employ a High Pass Filter, although I'm not sure what the HPF options are on that amp.


If the driver really can handle 5000wRMS, you could feed it that much in a sealed box and have extension down to single digits with plenty of output higher up too.
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post #3 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't really have a limit on box size, but I would have thought tuning it to 11hz would be a little low considering I want this sub for music aswell?

I'm only feeding the sub around the 2500w RMS. Crown and every other PA company uses a funny rating system which is not infact true rms. I've calculated from amp draw, it really is around roughly 2000-2500w RMS.

I'm not sure how to read the winisd graph in terms of group delay and stuff, only able to model the frequency response,

I've modelled the sealed box as well, I't seems like there is no where near the output as the ported box even below tuning frequency. But as I've said, I'm no expert.

Thanks for the response
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post #4 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 10:18 PM
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Holy hell, a 40 BL, 1.84lbs of moving mass, and over 1 Le/Re.
Nearly 2 pounds!

YID DIY
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post #5 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 10:36 PM
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you are in luck! there is a box called the Marty Sub that we were just working on in another thread.

11.5 cubic feet tuned to around 17hz. perfect for that driver.

pick up the thread around here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711174

your driver cutout dimensions would be unique to that driver, but all else would be the same.

2500 watts. 22 mm excursion. high pass filter recommended as with most ported...


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post #6 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 10:45 PM
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"My question being, If I tune the box this low, will it still be good for music?"

yes. it will give up a little bit of sensitivity higher up, but as far as sound quality, it will actually be a little better with the low tuning.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #7 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi LTD02,

When you say, perfect for that driver, Do you mean perfect my soloX 18" or perfect for the driver in the linked thread? Sorry I'm a little slow,

Thanks heaps
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post #8 of 34 Old 09-11-2013, 11:32 PM
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perfect isn't the right term as there really isn't any "perfect".

the plot that I just posted is from winisd with your solo x in an 11.5 cubic footer tuned to 17hz.

the solo x would work great in such a setup and with the power that you have available for movie and music content.

the only thing not to like is that the cab is fairly large, but that was because we tried to find a design that could employ some pre-cut "handy panels" from home depot to help cut down on the number of cuts the builder would be required to make.

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post #9 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting, I can't seem to get the same curve when I model it in WinIsd??? Wonder what I'm doing wrong. Im using the old version of winisd, not the alpha version. Think that would make a difference?

Oh, and it doesn't matter how large the cab is, I can't get off the shelf pieces here, it all has to be custom frown.gif
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post #10 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 05:39 AM
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What is you box size and port size ?

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #11 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

What is you box size and port size ?

It will be what LTD02 suggested, 11.5cuft tuned to 17hz. I just cant get the same response curve as him when I put the figures in winisd for some reason
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post #12 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 07:04 PM
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"It will be what LTD02 suggested, 11.5cuft tuned to 17hz. I just cant get the same response curve as him when I put the figures in winisd for some reason..."

here is what i have in winisd for that driver.



11.5 cubic footer tuned to 17hz is what i used.

ah! ZERO out inductance (Le) on the driver. that messes things up. winisd doesn't account for that parameter properly, so i leave it out.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #13 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 07:13 PM
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oh, and another VERY MINOR thing, going with a slightly oversized cab creates that little bump in response at the bottom end.

that is a GOOD THING, as when a high pass filter is applied, response just goes smooth.

normally, one could use a high pass filter and then put a little eq bump right on the tuning frequency, BUT that isn't the best idea because the tuning frequency is where maximum power is already being consumed. so that little 2-3db bump in the raw response actually saves about 50% power usage on the tuning frequency, which is something that is never really discussed but is nice. ported cabs draw max power right on their tuning frequency.

here is the response with a 2nd order high pass filter at 17hz. looks pretty good to my eyeball. :-)


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post #14 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 07:15 PM
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for others who are interested, here is power consumed assuming 2500 "watts" setting in winisd.

so that little bump around the tuning frequency drops power down to about 850 watts. nice! power on the top end will by reduced significantly when a low pass filter is applied to match to the mains, so don't worry about that at all.


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post #15 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 07:16 PM
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"Oh, and it doesn't matter how large the cab is, I can't get off the shelf pieces here, it all has to be custom"

btw, where is "here"? :-)

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post #16 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks heaps for that! I'm in Australia. I can see my house falling apart with this! Hahaha,

I'll try and reproduce it on winisd smile.gif I'm using the older version btw!
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post #17 of 34 Old 09-12-2013, 10:02 PM
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Are you in Melbourne or NSW area?
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post #18 of 34 Old 09-13-2013, 12:13 AM
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Aww Kicker. Brings me back to the early nineties when I was cutting my audio teeth starting with car audio. I had great luck back in the day with Kicker Solobarics in very small sealed enclosures. I wish you good luck with your build.

JBL Pro Cinema
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post #19 of 34 Old 09-13-2013, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Aww Kicker. Brings me back to the early nineties when I was cutting my audio teeth starting with car audio. I had great luck back in the day with Kicker Solobarics in very small sealed enclosures. I wish you good luck with your build.
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Are you in Melbourne or NSW area?

I'm in perth area!

Yeah, I've always been a kicker fan! Sound good to me!
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post #20 of 34 Old 09-03-2014, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so after a long delay, I've decided to start designing the box. I am limited to a height of 550mm (21.65") total overall (including rubber feet, external finishes, etc)

I have 25mm (0.984") plywood available, Is this okay?

The design is based on LTD-02 comments above,

The external dimensions of the box 520mm x 1850mm x 520mm (20.47" x 72.83" x 20.47")
Internal dimensions 470mm x 1800mm x 470mm (18.5" x 70.87" x 18.5")

Dimensions of the port are 470mm x 100mm x 1300mm (18.5" x 3.937" x 51.18")

The box is 11.40cuft with a tuning frequency of 17.28hz.

I am using a slot port coming out of the side of the box utilizing the corner of the box.

I have used bassbox 6 pro and winisd for the design,

Was wondering if someone could check my design?

Thanks in advance

Last edited by rezponse; 09-03-2014 at 09:14 PM.
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post #21 of 34 Old 09-09-2014, 07:28 PM
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the first port resonance on that is probably too low.


44" is really stretching it for port length.


also, slot ports tend to function about 10% longer than winisd calcs for a variety of reasons. so if you need 44", build it to 40".


reducing the port height down to 3.5" should cause the port to shorten up enough that all is good.


25mm ply is more than enough, but it still requires bracing. no particular plan is required, just try to keep every square foot or so braced for best performance.


the long cab will get standing waves, so stuff it up with some pillows and it will function well.

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post #22 of 34 Old 09-09-2014, 07:38 PM
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"Was wondering if someone could check my design?"


double checked in winisd.


I'd suggest port of 3.5" x 18.5" x 42" that should provide right around 17hz tune and about 160hz first port resonance.

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post #23 of 34 Old 09-09-2014, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the first port resonance on that is probably too low.


44" is really stretching it for port length.


also, slot ports tend to function about 10% longer than winisd calcs for a variety of reasons. so if you need 44", build it to 40".


reducing the port height down to 3.5" should cause the port to shorten up enough that all is good.


25mm ply is more than enough, but it still requires bracing. no particular plan is required, just try to keep every square foot or so braced for best performance.


the long cab will get standing waves, so stuff it up with some pillows and it will function well.
Quote:
"Was wondering if someone could check my design?"


double checked in winisd.


I'd suggest port of 3.5" x 18.5" x 42" that should provide right around 17hz tune and about 160hz first port resonance.

Okay so I have changed it to what you recommended, So the design is now;

External dimensions: 520mm x 1850mm x 520mm (20.47" x 72.83" x 20.47")
Internal dimensions: 470mm x 1800mm x 470mm (18.5" x 70.87" x 18.5")

Dimensions of the port are 470mm x 90mm x 1100mm (18.5" x 3.5" x 43.31") (To make it easier to cut)

The box is 11.99cuft (with braces and all) with a tuning frequency of 17.29hz.

Thanks for your help!
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post #24 of 34 Old 09-10-2014, 03:17 AM
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looks good.

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post #25 of 34 Old 09-10-2014, 12:25 PM
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The iTech 8000 was measured as producing up to 8-10kW's burst-power and 4000watts RMS for 10 seconds and flat to 7hz, bridged at 4-ohms.

The iTech series amps produce a great deal of power, be careful not to cook the sub, I mean it. Although it was never admitted, I think the last AVS member to use an iTech 8k fried 4 LMS-18's.
The 14k clone is even more powerful than the iTech's and Powersoft 10K, so I'm actually surprised more people haven't fried their subs with such powerful amps.

The only problem I have with my iTech 8000 is that it has LOUD FANS, especially in 240volts mode. It's a real space heater.

The iTech DSP has all the features that an iNuke has (minus the DEQ). So 20hz is the lowest filter/XO.
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post #26 of 34 Old 09-10-2014, 12:32 PM
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Here is an iTech 8000 blowing up various subwoofers, including a Kicker SoloX.
The Kicker lasted 12mins at 3.5kW and 72minutes at 3kW.
http://www.orioncaraudio.com/565-ori...hallenger.html

If you drive the iTech into clipping it will blow within ~1 minute.

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post #27 of 34 Old 09-10-2014, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The iTech 8000 was measured as producing up to 8-10kW's burst-power and 4000watts RMS for 10 seconds and flat to 7hz, bridged at 4-ohms.

The iTech series amps produce a great deal of power, be careful not to cook the sub, I mean it. Although it was never admitted, I think the last AVS member to use an iTech 8k fried 4 LMS-18's.
The 14k clone is even more powerful than the iTech's and Powersoft 10K, so I'm actually surprised more people haven't fried their subs with such powerful amps.

The only problem I have with my iTech 8000 is that it has LOUD FANS, especially in 240volts mode. It's a real space heater.

The iTech DSP has all the features that an iNuke has (minus the DEQ). So 20hz is the lowest filter/XO.
Okay point noted. Can you replace the fans on them to quiet them down?

Also, I'm not to sure, but I was hoping to apply a high-pass filter aswell as a low-pass filter at the same time. I think it can be done on this amp but not sure?

One other thing, I find it very hard to believe the claimed power figures produced by these amps. How on earth can they produce that much power with current of 15A on the input??
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post #28 of 34 Old 09-11-2014, 06:33 AM
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Reserve power in the caps and PS design. Crown have always made some very powerful amps. Great choice by the way.
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post #29 of 34 Old 09-11-2014, 08:57 AM
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Any particular reason you are going with the Kicker sub? I had several of them years back in cars in sealed boxes. They slammed but where the least musical out of all the subs I tried over the years (except the bazooka tub, but I was 17 and well.. lets just not talk about it)
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post #30 of 34 Old 09-11-2014, 10:27 AM
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It's a full DSP it has everything you need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezponse View Post
I find it very hard to believe the claimed power figures produced by these amps. How on earth can they produce that much power with current of 15A on the input??
All amps basically function the same, for the first 1-10 seconds they draw power from their capacitor banks and then the output will be limited by the power supply and wall socket, whichever is the lesser of the two, the next limiting factor is heat and overcurrent limiters. This is how they get more power output than input (for a few seconds).

The iTech's have a power-factor-correction above 85% at high power, this makes them about 35% more efficient than non-PFC amps (such as Big Iron Class-H), additionally the output stage is Class-D which is also +85% efficient, compared to 50% for Class A/B. When you look at the current-draw of a Big Iron amp, only 40% of that makes it to the cone, the rest is heat, that's why they need huge heat sinks.

The tricky part is building a switching circuit that can handle the high current, it's much more difficult than a standard Big Iron topology.
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