Big Horns Experiments - AE TD15M, AE TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata-300, JBL Beryllium, & BMS - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 04:31 AM
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"LTD is that where the .5 JBL scheme comes into play for avoiding this cancellation?"

no... that particular cancellation is purely a measurement phenomenon coming from the poor choice of microphone location. but, it is a good example of why such speakers are no good for "nearfield monitoring".

the .5 scheme is simply to increase headroom in the bass while allowing a single woofer to carry the midrange.

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post #32 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Have you looked at the JBL datasheet? It shows the 2446 rolling off at 7k or so, and if you have a look at the CSDs, the stuff in the top octave and a half is mainly resonant rubbish. It's a 4" diaphragm How many 4" tweeters do you see of any material (except crap full range drivers)? I have several 2446 and 2445 and have used them with the original and Radian phrams. I preferred the Radians for home use.
I'm not. At the time I was doing a lot of horn design and construction I also had a loaner pair of TH4001 that I compared to the 4590. I could of purchased the TADs but I was unimpressed by their performance. As the TADs are a development of the 2446, I don't hold out much hope for them either even with the Be.

So in your opinion, would adding a tweeter and using the Be 2446 as a mid be a wise option? I wonder how a one inch tweeter would work in this situation? Something perhaps like a BMS 4550 or DE250?

I have a Radian 951 that I plan to use on a Seos-18 when funds permit. I was hoping to pick up 2 Radian 950's and upgrade them to the Truexnt Be diaphragms as that combo is considered the best.
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post #33 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 06:38 AM
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expanding on THIS even further...

interestingly, this kind of shows a failure point in the idea of using side-by-side woofers for directivity control matching to a horn.

a single woofer will begin to beam, while side-by-side woofers create a cancellation. i used to think that these were quite similar, but they are not.

with a single woofer, the beaming is smooth and increasing as one marches up the frequencies.

with side-by-side woofers, the cancellation is there, then goes very deep into a notch, then disappears, so it is not smooth as one marches up the frequencies.

as a result, for directivity matched systems with side by side woofers, something like this implementation may be a little better...maybe.


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post #34 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Yesssssss...that didn't take long, dual 8s, to dual 10s and seos18, to quads and seos24 in 24hrs biggrin.gif
Well I was thinking dual 12's under neath a SEOS 24 but wondering how to implement this correctly without nulls and other affects. Quad 12's is just too much for me.
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post #35 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 08:43 AM
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What are your/other thoughts on TMM alignment of it?? Spacing should be close enough that you'd be ok. Or MTM..spacing should be fine for that too. What reason do you have for side by side woofs, just space??
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post #36 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 08:50 AM
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Also consider that two 6" drivers side by side will have greater horizontal directivity than a single 12". The reason for this is the 12" has greatest radiation area on the vertical centerline of the woofer, the pair of 6" has the greatest radiation area on the vertical centerlines of the two drivers...spreading the source horizontally.

In other words, a pair of 5" may more closely approximate the horizontal pattern of a 12" than a pair of 6".

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post #37 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 09:32 AM
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LTD02 said, "just to expand a bit on what I posted in #26 ..."

Aah, at first I didn't understand what you were describing. However your post #28 does a great job of clarifying your point. And you are right! I am sure that I was taking my mesurements as you describe, 1 meter just above the cabinet because I was attempting to find an optimum active crossover point to the IWATA horn. It had not occurred to me that I was measuring in a null cancellation point.

Once again, taking measurements properly is the hardest part! Thank you for sharing your insite!

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post #38 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 10:43 AM
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tks.

ip pnw.

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post #39 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the .5 scheme is simply to increase headroom in the bass while allowing a single woofer to carry the midrange.

Fwiw
I'm uncertain how the .5 approach began. However the first .5 approach I remember is the 4430 monitor upgrade to the 4435.



Here's Keele's great paper on the 4430/4435; http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20130930/4573.pdf

It's a good read.

(These monitors were everywhere when they were introduced, seemingly quite popular. I shared this with Keele, however I went into my daughter's high school practice space for orchestra, two 4430s are aircraft-cable hung down from the very high ceiling, .. toed in and angled down, serving for playback duty for the students while in their full orchestral practice positions. Also, I believe Ethan Winer still uses his pair)

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #40 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

expanding on THIS even further...

interestingly, this kind of shows a failure point in the idea of using side-by-side woofers for directivity control matching to a horn.

a single woofer will begin to beam, while side-by-side woofers create a cancellation. i used to think that these were quite similar, but they are not.

with a single woofer, the beaming is smooth and increasing as one marches up the frequencies.

with side-by-side woofers, the cancellation is there, then goes very deep into a notch, then disappears, so it is not smooth as one marches up the frequencies.

as a result, for directivity matched systems with side by side woofers, something like this implementation may be a little better...maybe.


They look like Meyer speakers.
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post #41 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 11:07 AM
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those happen to be tannoys.

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post #42 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 11:23 AM
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the Renkus is another good example of another example with multiple drivers and a large waveguide. http://www.renkus-heinz.com/product.aspx?productid=52


John E. Janowitz
Acoustic Elegance, LLC
"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"
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post #43 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

those happen to be tannoys.

Thanks for the info! smile.gif
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post #44 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

So in your opinion, would adding a tweeter and using the Be 2446 as a mid be a wise option?
Why waste money on the Be if you're going to use a tweet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I was hoping to pick up 2 Radian 950's and upgrade them to the Truexnt Be diaphragms as that combo is considered the best.
Just use the stock 950's and spend the money saved on a HF driver and flare.
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post #45 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 07:44 PM
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Chop I was thinking of dual 12s side by side because I wanted to keep the height down. Then I could put the speaker on top of my subs. Going mtm is a thought but I would go back to something smaller. So trying to keep height around 30-34". I don't have room for floor standsng speakers unless the are only 11" wide. I like the dual angled drivers look also but if using the Seos 24 I would want to go 15s to keep all the widths the same. Just for looks sake. But maybe I can try this concept out with a pair of 8s and the QSC WG I have. Won't be the same sound but I can see if I like the woofer interaction before going with the Seos24 and 12 or other combo. Will have to see what everyone else does and go from there. Quads is not affordable but dials is. Space is a concern but I can go with wide speakers such as 25".
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post #46 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 07:51 PM
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that's hilarious...that pic just doesn't do those speakers justice...those are quad 12's in jj's post (270 lbs worth of big azz cab)! look like 8's in the pic...

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post #47 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 08:22 PM
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Oh wow I thought they were 8s or something. Will have to look more into that speaker now. And now after looking more at the setup JJ linked to I might try and do someting like that if it gets rid of the nulls I might have.

Would testing the the idea be as simple as placing a ported cabinet with side by side woofers on a 4ftx4ft baffle and using REW for testing. And then try and do a ported cabinet with angled firing drivers with the same size baffle and REW?I figured I might have to test different angles to see which works best but am hoping this method would work. Also thought about using these in an open baffle just for testing. BUT that may be useless information except to see if there is a cancellation or not verse the side by side woofers. The STX5 looks like what I would try to emulate utilizing a SEOS24.

Any suggestions on testing to get this alignment correct please?
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post #48 of 56 Old 10-06-2013, 01:20 PM
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How did/do you like the Iwata horns?

Carl_Huff was kind enough to let me to come over to his house and hear his system (he uses the same Iwata horns) last friday when I was on my way home from work. I have to say, I was blown away by the sound quality and how they could sound so large but also small at the same time.

The best way I can describe this is by the scene at the beggining of Ironman 2 that he had me watch.

When they show a small tv showing Tony Stark admitting that he was Ironman, the sound seems to be from a small tv. However, when Ironman is flying down with the fireworks were exploding around him, the sound was huge. There was no harshness at all either. Something that I have always been very concerned about when looking at horns.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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post #49 of 56 Old 02-19-2014, 11:56 PM
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bump. any updates, lessons, or thoughts?

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post #50 of 56 Old 02-20-2014, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
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bump. any updates, lessons, or thoughts?
+1
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post #51 of 56 Old 02-20-2014, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Lessons:

1) don't ever try to take on designing 8 different speakers while also working a full time job, having a family including a now 22 month old that wants to spend every single waking moment with you playing, and a side business doing retail sales... Something has to give, and in this instance, it's been my ability to get all of the speaker design stuff done... building existing designs is a lot easier since I can solder crossovers at 3 AM and not wake anyone up (and he *loves* helping Daddy do woodworking, even if I have to keep the Makita track saw away from him for now smile.gif hehehe). I can listen to evaluate speakers capabilities with the little guy since he loves music. What he doesn't love is test tones and running tones over and over to take measurements of things to do crossover simulations.... I think I'm abandoning some of the other projects I planned besides just this big horn experiment and putting those drivers up for sale shortly.... it'll be 5 years or more at this rate of progress before I finish them all...

2) never build Wayne Parham's 3Pis with 1.5" thick cabinet walls, lined with bitumen and Blackhole 5 when you have a really bad back... unlike the big horns that have casters integrated into the design, trying to lift those 3Pi boxes onto stands threw my back out again to the point that I gave in and had to have spinal injections frown.gif... and then had a reaction to the steroids.... at least now that I'm over that, it appears to have worked.... no more constant, 24/7 searing pain shooting down my legs and making my feet go numb and not work.... it made walking a bit of a challenge at times smile.gif hehehe

3) what little bit of crossover playing I've done (and most of the experimentation has only been in the last few weeks), I'm not sure I'm a fan of the Iwata for this room and specific goal for the speakers. On axis in the sweet spot it's *REALLY* good and pretty darn linear... as someone posted above, it has an ability to play huge and yet small at the same time....it throws a huge perceived soundstage, even when playing at really low volumes (something that surprised me as I expected I'd need to push the speaker a bit to get it going and to "open up" and "come alive", something that is necessary with some of the other SEOS designs I've played with (and even the 3Pis if I'm being honest).... electrically the most recent iteration currently being listened to has me using basically a first order slope, acoustically, with how I'm shaping and where I started rolloff slopes, it ends up being more like 3rd order, almost 4th order. The forward lobe just doesn't seem super tall or wide. Above or below and off to the sides a lot, or from another room in the house for background music, and it falls apart and treble response drops off a cliff worse than a typical short ribbon tweeter. I've only played the JBL with Truextant beryllium diaphragms through this horn... will still give the BMS 4592ND a shot... and if I can get better measurements and play with some sims, I might find a combo that gives a bigger window.... but I have a feeling that the Iwatas may end up for sale in the classified section before all is said and done... I'm switching to active to shorten experimentation time instead of having to wire so many different passive crossovers to test my ideas. Assembly times take too long...even just clipping them together seems to take much longer than I want to bother with and the couple that I spent the time getting really good connections by soldering instead of using crappy alligator clip leads sounded better (clip leads hurting sonics?)... so it's been a bit frustrating... if SEOS24 is no better in the top end, I may have to explore and add the complexity (i.e. opportunity to screw things up) super tweeter to add back the top end energy and let it splash around the room more...

beyond that, nothing to update. I'm going to switch to the SEOS24 shortly and try to get something wired up and playing with it in the next week or so... hopefully better overall results with it than Iwata so far....

Shane
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post #52 of 56 Old 02-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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Hometheaterdoc, sorry to hear about your back! Should have made the little one help you lift those! haha.

I look forward to how you would compare the SEOS to the Iwata.

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

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post #53 of 56 Old 03-08-2014, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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It's official.... I give up....

The better half will say she is ok with my little foray into playing with some DIY things and will help out with the little guy to give me time to do measurements and work on crossover design....but the proof is in the pudding..... and she's done everything in her power to block me working on these speakers.... Another glorious day in the 70's here today and another day lost with no measurements....

Published speaker designs that I just have to wire crossovers for, I can do.... I can solder those late at night. Even the woodworking to build boxes I can do out in the garage after the little guy is in bed.... my new Makita track saw is surprisingly quiet.

Playing test tones on big speakers at 95+db and to get good measurements in the driveway or backyard can't happen at night after he goes to bed. My neighbors would lose their minds. Taking measurements indoors during the day causes a complete uproar in my house. so I'm stuck.... and more than a little unhappy....

in fairness, I shouldn't complain _too_ loudly... when I have demo appointments for my business, she *has* been much much better and doesn't really complain anymore about that... and with me diving into some new products and ramping that business up again the last few months, I've had quite a lot of demo appointments that she's helped out with... but this DIY thing she has fought against a lot more vigorously than I ever could have imagined... I don't know if it's the unfinished boxes or the clutter of crossover parts alligator clipped everywhere or ??? I tried to fight through it for a while now... but today I think the camel's back finally broke.....

As a result, you'll see some classified ads under my name pop up shortly.

The Iwata-300 horns, a bunch of compression drivers, a bunch of woofers, seos waveguides, and a bunch of other stuff will be in the classifieds shortly.

grrrrrrrr and *sigh*......

Shane
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post #54 of 56 Old 03-10-2014, 02:51 PM
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Sorry to hear this. I was very curious to hear what your thoughts would be on the SEOS24/beryllium CD combo.
I just about have boxes built for my SEOS18/TD15M/BA750 project. There haven't been many build threads with the larger SEOS waveguides. I especially liked that you were using upper crust parts and overbuilt enclosures.
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post #55 of 56 Old 03-10-2014, 04:49 PM
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Dang, could have been some great info in here. Maybe someday you can do the experiment and share with us in the future.
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post #56 of 56 Old 03-10-2014, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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there is always the possibility that something changes 6 months or a year or more from now. smile.gif

For now, the woofer boxes are being used with bms 4550/seos12 mounted into a short height baffle/box sitting on top. It's mtg90s design (http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=230.msg2838#msg2838)

I put the seos24 back in their box and put them in the attic for now..... since i haven't even heard them raw yet, I just can't bring myself to sell them just yet..... 6 months from now, they might be in the classifieds.... but not yet.... I'm still a bit stubborn smile.gif

in talking things through over the past couple days, it really comes down to this....... if I am going to miss family time during the days, only way it is ok is if there is the potential to *make* money (i.e. side business), not spending it on activities tied to me spending it...... and as much as I enjoy playing with these DIY speaker designs to build and listen, its just that..... Im spending and spendng and will never get my money back out.... ill lose money when I sell... certainly not going to make money..... and I don't expect to...it's not even a consideration when I have been doing tnis.... the value is in the journey and hearing something you can't just press add to cart on amazon and have a ready made speaker show up 2 days later thanks to Amazon Prime smile.gif the wife has a different feeling about DIY and finally verbalized why she's been fighting my attempts until now....it sure would have been simpler to just tell me that months ago and save the frustrations!!!!!

so building published designs can work since I can do that after wife and son have gone to bed and it doesn't interfere with family time..... I still want to build an LCR set of Tux's 1099s if Erich will ever return my emails so I can buy the dna205s and seos10 smile.gif I just can't do it during the day..... which is kind of a problem when you need measurements to use for crossover simulations... other than installation and tweaking, no need to do that with finished designs since the designer did all the grunt work on crossover for me....

too bad this comparison of all the different options couldn't proceed...... but family harmony comes first in this instance......

Shane
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