Big Horns Experiments - AE TD15M, AE TD15H, SEOS24, Iwata-300, JBL Beryllium, & BMS - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 09-16-2013, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The long and winding road to get here is within sight of coming to fruition... I'm posting this thread to force me to stay on task and hopefully it will shame me or pressure me enough to finish this experiment.

Project Description: A "modular" speaker design that would allow me to re-use the bass and midbass driver cabinet in combination with at least two different horns and 4 or more compression drivers to (hopefully) find a combination of horn / compression driver (along with the bass cabinets) that results in an overall speaker that I like the sound of enough to keep long term. If I like multiple combinations, the "modular" approach taken allows me to effectively have multiple speakers without having to store multiple large speaker boxes in my space. Details below.

Project Goal: find a combination of horn/CD and woofers that produce a speaker that I can use for 2 channel music listening that do everything I like about the commercial speakers I have here, but also add the dynamics, low distortion, and directivity that these horns are supposed to do in spades. I've heard a *LOT* of horn based speakers over the years.... a couple have done some things that I've really liked... but there has always been something that aggravated me about them to the point that I just couldn't live with them.... call it HOM, call it "honk", call it a personal, subjective dislike of the concept.... who knows what it was.... I've built a bunch of SEOS12 designs and while they all have merits and represent a value, none of them so far are on a level sound quality wise where I'd keep them for high end 2 channel listening and abandon my other speakers. That's not a knock against any design or particular designer or the concept as a whole...... but so far, they've just not been for me and my personal tastes (and yes, I built them all correctly and verified so)... along with the Zephyr build for a buddy, a 3Pi build I'm building just to hear it, and a ported version of the Cheap Thrills as a present for the nanny, this big horn project is my last attempt at experimentation with horns and waveguides before I consider my curiosity quenched on the topic for now... I originally also got involved with this concept because I was intrigued with the controlled directivity concept because of increased sweet spot possibilities and potential to get away with less room treatment and still get good sound (that would certainly have WAF given my current acoustic treatment setups throughout my house).... so far, of all the designs I've built, none of them allow me to ditch any room treatments... they're marginally better in a crappy room... but they unfortunately don't magically get around limitations of an acoustic space, nor do they work well enough with less treatment where I can live with getting rid of some of the stuff I have setup... it was just too much of a negative impact that I would have to keep all the treatment in place....

Project Details: The horns/waveguides that will be experimented with for this project are the SEOS 24 1.5" entry fiberglass horn and the Iwata-300 2" entry fiberglass horn, both from Poland and both imported by DIY Sound Group. Right now, the only CD I have here that fits the mounting holes on the SEOS 24 is the BMS 4595ND coaxial CD. I have a JBL 2447 CD with beryllium replacement diaphragms here as well... but the bolt pattern is too big for the tiny metal mounting plate on the SEOS24 and can't be used without modifications. I'll play with the BMS first before deciding if I want to bastardize the horn enough to build an adapter plate to make it work. I also have someone that has a pair of 2450SL CDs they'd sell me that use the smaller bolt pattern needed to fit the SEOS24... not sure I want to buy them and sell the 2447s.... will decide later.... I also managed to get another pair of JBL 2446 2" CDs, these ones from the period where they made them with the smaller bolt pattern needed to fit the metal mounting plate on the Iwata horn. I also have a BMS 4592ND coaxial CD to directly compare against the JBL. so at least I can do a direct head to head shootout on the Iwatas without having to do any modifications...

I have had rather conventional looking speaker enclosures built for me (see attached image showing the plan) that will house the woofers. The horns/waveguides will sit on top of these woofer cabinets in free space. All cabinet walls and internal cabinet dividers are 1.5" thick made up of 3/4" 13 ply birch plywood laminated together with 3/4" MDF. Bracing put in at the time of construction was ok... I'll likely have to beef it up significantly by the time I'm done to reduce any cabinet wall resonances to a point they aren't offensive to me or overtly noticeable in the final voicing of the speaker.

These boxes have two independent sealed cavities. The bottom, sealed cavity will house the Acoustic Elegance TD15H woofer. It will effectively be the "subwoofer" of the system and have it's own separate dedicated amplifier (in this case a Crown XTi 2002, which sounds like complete a$$ run full range, but is adequate for bass frequencies and has some flexibility with its DSP allowing electronic crossover and PEQ to flatten the overall bass response in room). The top, sealed cavity will house the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. In the enclosure size I'll have the TD15M, without factoring in the room, the woofer should start rolling off a little under 80Hz according to the models. The TD15M will cover from this ~80Hz point up to the crossover with the various CDs/horns. So, essentially, this is a "X.5 way" speaker with no high pass on the TD15M, only a low pass on the TD15H to roll it off at the point the sealed TD15M starts to roll off naturally. I chose to use the TD15H instead of a second TD15M in the "X.5 way" design to take advantage of the extra Xmax in the 15H... 99.9% of the time, I'm never going to play the overall speaker at a volume level where I'll run into power handing or excursion issues. The extra excursion will get eaten up trying to compensate for the sealed bass design and adjusting for some anomalies in the room that affect every speaker I've ever put in the room and I want to fight a bit with some EQ...

The AE woofers are used exactly the same way in every combination of CD/horn, with only the low pass crossover of the TD15M where it crosses to the CD/horn combo changing.... all passive crossovers for TD15M/CD/horn are external to these woofer boxes stored in their own external boxes to allow quick changes when the CD/horn is swapped.... each woofer has a straight run of JPS Labs speaker wire from the binding posts on the back of the box to the woofers themselves.

The "modular" part of the speaker comes in largely because of aesthetics, but also legitimately because of the uncertainty over what (if any) combo of gear will stay long term. I'm going to use JBL's 2509a metal mounts bolted to a 1.5" thick "mounting plate" (two 3/4" 13 ply birch plywood layers glued together) that is the exact same dimensions as the top of the woofer cabinet. Given the different sizes (and definitely depths) of the SEOS 24 "waveguide" versus the Iwata-300 horn, if I bolted the JBL 2509a to the top of the woofer cabinet, I would have two different mount points.... that means two different sets of bolt holes in the cabinet itself, having to unbolt and re-bolt the JBL mounts each time I want to swap back and forth between the different horns, and having to beef up those locations in the woofer cabinet to avoid weaknesses or air leaks around the bolt holes thanks to the sealed TD15M cavity.

If I ultimately end up keeping only the SEOS24 and ditching the Iwata (or vice versa), now I have extra bolt holes in the woofer enclosure that serve no purpose and have to be filled and re-finished, or forever are a reminder of what once was.... by having multiple sets of JBL 2509a metal mounts, as well as multiple sets of "mounting plates" that are the same size as the top of the enclosure, I can leave the JBLs permanently bolted in their ideal locations on each set of mounting plates, have both sets of horns permanently attached and ready to swap back and forth, and the mounting plates being exactly the same size as the top of the box makes lining everything up super easy to get set correctly when you switch back and forth.... if I get rid of one horn or the other, it's just a couple pieces of wood and some stain gone and no one is the wiser. I can swap back and forth between horns by just lifting off one assembly of "mounting plate"/JBL 2509a/CD/horn and dropping on the other.... takes a few seconds... quick swap of speaker cables to the new external crossover network box for that design and I can be listening to an entirely different horn speaker in a couple minutes tops.... all without having to move the woofer cabinets and only needing space to sit the horn assemblies off to the side instead of enough room to have a completely different speaker box...

The really big aesthetic perk of the "modular" approach I'm taking is in finishing the speakers and their look.... this design allowed me to request boxes be made very quickly and cheaply, yet still result in a pretty nice aesthetic look.... see the pictures below.... the design calls for butt joints everywhere so it can be slapped together really quickly (i.e. quick and dirty with less labor time to build than beveled edges or box within a box to limit the edge grains showing)... all the edge grains are showing on the front face, top face, and back of the enclosure. The front, top, and back can now be covered in Duratex to hide the edge grains, leaving the side panels to be stained and lacquered. The separate mounting plates set on top of the box now allows the top to also have stain and lacquer, with only edge grains for that plate showing (and that can be edge banded with veneer and look acceptable easier than trying to veneer the MDF and plywood edges on the top, front, and back of the box by itself)... I don't have a photo yet of the mounting plates sitting on top of the woofer enclosures to better demonstrate what it looks like finished.... that will likely make it easier to show... I'm just now finishing up staining those mounting plates and should have them done in the next day or two.... I'll put a pic up at that time to show the design better than I'm describing here in words... but so far, I am very happy with how it is going to turn out based on finishing the boxes to their current state and how far along I have the mounting plates themselves...

In order to allow use of simplistic, minimalist two channel electronics I already own, I'm going to make the attempt to do passive crossover in between TD15M and CD/horn combos, no matter the cost of the passive crossover components, or even if the passive is less than ideally optimized.... Power handling simply doesn't matter beyond a couple watts as 99.9% of my listening will be at volume levels far lower than folks on this thread like to run their setups. I'm not opposed to trying a couple forms of EQ / room correction I've not yet played with (from directly within JRiver, or from using Dirac Live filters) if the less than ideal crossover means it still needs a little EQ to even things out. I'd rather do that than complicate the system with active crossovers and need two of everything (DAC and amp channels) for powering the TD15M and horn assembly).... The cross between BMS MF and HF inside the CD will definitely be passive based on quick listening to the stock BMS passive crossover unit and a couple different ones I put together... if I don't want to deal with the complexity of active crossover and extra amp channels for the woofer/horn crossover, I definitely don't want to do it for the BMS smile.gif hehe

Project status (as of this posting): raw woofer cabinet is constructed by a friend and delivered to me. I installed the 3" casters in their semi hidden recessed bottom plate area to allow the boxes to be rolled around if I need to move them. I then spent the past couple weeks finishing the box to a point that it is now permitted into the house. The birch veneer side panels are stained with a nice antique walnut gel stain and sanded to 400 grit level. the front, top, and back panels are prepped, coated in two thick coats of Duratex, and then have been sanded down to 400 grit level and the duratex finish buffed out to hide as much of the orange peel finish look as possible.... I still need to put many layers of lacquer on the birch side panels and do some finish spray coats of Duratex on those surfaces as well (to get rid of as much of the orange peel as I can)... but I'm going to listen to the various options and design some crossovers first before I spend any more time on cabinet finishing.... it's good enough to get past the Boss's objections to coming in the house smile.gif so I'm stopping finish work for now and moving on to stuffing boxes and beginning measurements and crossover designs... which should hopefully start in earnest this week....

The raw "design" of the woofer boxes:



The woofer boxes as they were delivered to me by my buddy who built them:




The current state of the woofers after staining the side panels and putting Duratex on the front, top, and back. One photo includes the spray can of flat black paint I used to paint the routed driver recesses for a sense of scale. I didn't want to put the Duratex in the driver recesses since it builds up and my buddy cut the recesses pretty tight for the TD woofers.... last thing I wanted was woofers that wouldn't fit in the openings after putting the Duratex on smile.gif





Shane
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post #2 of 56 Old 09-16-2013, 01:28 PM
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Awesome Shane! This is wonderful to see and has been a long road for you...very glad to see it come to fruition! (I saw your enclosures on another forum and have been eager to see your thread here.)

Man, if you could only clamp that 2447 onto the mounting ring! I'm certain you've tried/and thought of everything though. I'm curious to see how the Be cleans up the top end of the 2447, over 10kHz looks smoother with the BMS, imo.

I'm loving the 15H/M combo...I think you'll be pleased with the M crossing to the BMS, nice lower order slopes throughout.

(If you decide against the Iwata-300 after your testing has concluded, please let me know when/if it is available. biggrin.gif)

-Nate
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post #3 of 56 Old 09-16-2013, 01:35 PM
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SWEET!

check these out!

http://audiobricolos.over-blog.com/article-pavillons-jmlc-iwata-220-a-tourne-enfin-110999959.html

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post #4 of 56 Old 09-16-2013, 01:41 PM
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Wonderful Doc!!! That finish looks mighty familiar too biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #5 of 56 Old 09-16-2013, 01:54 PM
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I LOVE this build! Bring it on, man. smile.gif

Glad to see more modular style builds going on. biggrin.gif

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post #6 of 56 Old 09-16-2013, 04:56 PM
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Awesome build! I can't wait to see how the BMS coax compares to the JBL/Be combo!
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post #7 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

I'm loving the 15H/M combo...I think you'll be pleased with the M crossing to the BMS, nice lower order slopes throughout.

(If you decide against the Iwata-300 after your testing has concluded, please let me know when/if it is available. biggrin.gif)

-Nate

Thanks Nate.... I'll let you know if the Iwata becomes available... I have a couple local guys that are very curious to hear it for their own interests, especially if I don't like it and they do wink.gif

I'm definitely thinking low order slopes for the first pass given I don't have to worry about power handling at all purely for the simplicity of it all.... that will be my first of many attempts I'm sure... some first order slopes with maybe some impedance compensation on the horn to flatten that out a bit... the TD15M should play nice with tube amps on its own... but ultimately whatever sounds the best will be the final determining factor... I can physically time align the acoustic centers for the SEOS24 very easily to eliminate having to worry about that in the crossover circuit itself... it's going to be a different story with the deeeeeeeep Iwata unless I really want some funky looking speakers with severe overhang smile.gif a little overhang won't be a problem at all if it comes to that on the SEOS24 though...

the 2509a mounts also help with angling the HF down a touch toward the listening position... the bass cabinets unfortunately had to be a little too tall for my liking in order to fit the dual 15s, casters, and then the horns on top... have to measure and see how much I can get away with without creating unintended problems...
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Wonderful Doc!!! That finish looks mighty familiar too biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I've had these cabinets planned for quite some time, even before someone stopped by to pick up TD12X drivers, DNA360 CDs, and other parts from me wink.gif.... and I've done this same box style design and finish for like 15 years now smile.gif first time I've ever spent this much time on finish work for my own boxes though smile.gif hehehe... always did it for customer purchases, just couldn't be bothered for myself because I swapped stuff too often or re-imagined something... different rules in my house in the past couple years now that there is a female influence...no more raw wood test mule boxes, no more tools in the kitchen cabinets... no more projectors in every room of the house with 3 different electric screens to show the effects of different screen materials on the same projector.... no more 15 pairs of speakers lining the walls in every room.... it's a real bummer in a lot of ways frown.gifsmile.gif


further status update: it's a small one because my back is seriously messed up again from doing all this work on speakers the past couple weeks... I've used up all my good narcotics that I'd been rationing for future bad days taking multiples of them every day... the final straw was trying to get these boxes in the house and rolled into the 2 channel room the other night.... I'm not supposed to be lifting anything anywhere close to this heavy.... so even a really nice furniture mover couldn't offset the sheer size and weight of these boxes enough to protect my back.... I'm such a stubborn moron sometimes and now the idiot gets to pay for his stupidity by being miserable and laid up a bit.... I managed to 400 grit sand the mounting plate tops and sides and put another coat of gel stain on them and that's all I've done in the past couple nights.... the mounting plates are done as much as I'm touching them for now and are ready to have the JBL mounts and horns bolted to them and set on top of the woofer cabinets.... just leaving them in the garage for another day or two to off gas and release some of the oil based stink and then they will come inside and I'll play with some horns... likely the SEOS24 and BMS CD now... I was going to start with the Iwata because I can directly compare the JBL versus the BMS on it.... but even the idea of trying to fling a 27 pound JBL CD around right now is making me shudder and cringe in pain.... the little guy is so not happy that Daddy can't carry him around at the moment or toss him around, etc.....one of these days I'll learn hehe.... the seos and small BMS are easier to handle for now..... I think my neighbor is going to get recruited this weekend to help me load the woofers into the cabinets smile.gif.... he might even be recruited to drag one of the boxes back outside for proper measurements.... not sure how much I want to rely upon indoor measurements for crossover sim work even for simple low order stuff....

Shane
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post #8 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 10:05 PM
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Have a look at D Mike's setup on Audio Asylum, Iwata-300/TD15H. He did his network without optimization and has had favorable reviews. In any case, once you get the summed responses you can get the z acoustic offset relatively easy...pun intended. smile.gif Are you using Omnimic and PCD?

Sorry to hear about your back.
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post #9 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm likely going to use the OmniMic and PCD route this time.... It's been a while since I've designed crossovers.... I spent a fortune years ago on "good" software for that era (CLIO, LEAP, lspCAD, etc.).... but the most DIY I've done lately has been subwoofer designs for local customers to save them cash on buying big commercial options.... I've got a couple really nice mics and mic preamps here somewhere if the wife hasn't tossed it out thinking it was worthless junk.... I think I'll play with the omnimic and PCD rather than try to remember which machine (if I haven't already replaced it) in the house has the old software on it... or have to spend the time searching for the software install CDs and dongles to re-install and run the old software.... I'm not sure some of it is even compatible with current OS versions.... the omnimic included microphone isn't on the same quality level I don't think of the condenser mics I have here somewhere... but with it being USB and the software being pretty straightforward, it might be easier for my declining brain power to just use it rather than relearn the old stuff smile.gif hehehe I'm sure it will be "good enough" for now and I'll spend some time digging up the old mics to use for potential EQ config measurements...

I took a look for the AA iwata 300 design you referenced.... it looks like he's gone active with a marchand active crossover @500hz.... I'm trying to avoid that if possible.... I'd like to use the specific DACs I have here and only one amp per channel (TD15M and whatever CD/horn combo is playing), except for the TD15H powered woofer of course smile.gif also, my pack rat nature has left me with a stupid amount of crossover parts to play with that I really should use up if possible rather than spend more money on another electronic device.... I might have to head down the active crossover and bi-amp route if passives sound like crap.... I'll go wherever it takes me to get the best sound and not force too many things.... but want to start with my ideal for now....

enough rambling for now smile.gif

Shane
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post #10 of 56 Old 09-27-2013, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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woofer boxes half a$$ed stuffed and woofers wired and mounted (just dacron polyfill stuffing for now... I'll do more elaborate wall dampening methods after first listening untreated to see what I have to do and what i can get away with not doing).

didn't have enough birch plywood to make a second set of "mounting plates" for the CDs/horns/jbl 2509a mounts. So I am also half a$$ing the attachment of the CDs/horns for right now to do listening tests. I've embarrassingly just strapped the JBL 2509a to the mounting plate rather than drill a bunch of holes.... whichever CD/horn combo "wins" will get permanent holes drilled in this set of mounting plates. If i like both horns, I'll buy another sheet of the birch plywood and make another set of plates, sand, stain, etc. but for now, money stays in pocket and I'm not spending any more time doing finishing work on another set of plates.

The same "wait and see" approach is being applied to AE woofer phase plugs. I've got a local anodizing facility that strip and re-anodize all the AE phase plugs I have here in black for a small fee.... if I decide to keep any combo of speakers that use the AE woofers, I'll get the anodizing done... until then, I'll keep the money in my pocket and have to stare at the silver plugs......

I was going to start with SEOS 24 and BMS CD as the first combo to take measurements and work up a rough crossover.... but I think I'll start with Iwata and JBL 2446 with beryllium replacement diaphragms... that's the one that most locals are curious to hear....

hopefully at some point this weekend I'll slap a simple crossover together and give an initial listen.... everything will need break-in and optimizing before making any judgements....

I purposely mounted the CD and horn to the JBL in this manner to center balance the weight as much as possible... I like the look from the side with it mounted the other way, but it's extremely tipsy that way. this way it almost stands perfectly on its own, just needs the strap as a little helper, and allows me to push it very far forward and have the horn overhang the front face a lot to physically align the drivers better for a more simplistic passive crossover (at least that is the hope and goal)....

anyways, enough rambling..... my back is totally trashed after tonight.... off to take more medication and hope I can move tomorrow....these things better sound good for all the pain I put myself through assembling them smile.giffrown.gif....


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post #11 of 56 Old 09-27-2013, 11:35 PM
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Oh mmmyyyy gaaawwwwddd. eek.gif

I must build these.

IMPRESSIVE, Doc. Very.

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post #12 of 56 Old 09-27-2013, 11:59 PM
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it's amazing how nice all that looks given how relatively simple it is...looking forward to this one for sure!

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post #13 of 56 Old 09-28-2013, 01:37 AM
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Those are absolutely beautiful doc!! Excited to hear how each is received.
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post #14 of 56 Old 09-28-2013, 05:07 AM
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Maybe I missed it, but I am curious as to what you are using for both the amps, and Dsp/Crossover/EQ for these bad boys? I am vet much looking forward to hearing your subjective opinions and to see the measurements. Specifically, I am interested in how the JBL 2446 & 2447 with the Be diaphragm compare to the BMS 4595 and 4592 coax CD's.

Is the Be diaphragm that you are using a Truextnt?(so?)

How does the JBL 2446 and/or 2447 without the Be diaphragm stack up against the BMS-4595 or 4592 coax CD's?
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post #15 of 56 Old 09-28-2013, 08:02 AM
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Wow, wow, WOW! Shane, those are beautiful.
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post #16 of 56 Old 09-28-2013, 07:39 PM
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Woah! Very classy.
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post #17 of 56 Old 09-28-2013, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

How does the JBL 2446 and/or 2447 without the Be diaphragm stack up against the BMS-4595 or 4592 coax CD's?
The 2446 doesn't compare, at least against the 4590.
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post #18 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

The 2446 doesn't compare, at least against the 4590.

So you feel that the BMS 4590 coax performs better, & has better SQ than a JBL 2446? It would seem that the coax 4590 would have some advantages because of the fact that the 4590 has a mid, & a tweeter, whereas the JBL has one driver covering the frequencies that the 4590 can split into 2 drivers.

But I would expect the JBL to be a strong contender due to it having the Be diaphragm. Anyway, I am looking forward to hearing more of everyone's subjective & objective opinions!
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post #19 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 09:39 AM
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"The 2446 doesn't compare, at least against the 4590."

I beg to differ. I have both BMS 4590 CDs and JBL 2446s with Be diaphragms. The BMS pair is good but the 2446/ Be combo (with EQ) is better.

Here is a PIC of how I am currently using my IWATAs.



That's a 2 way solution with JBL 2446 w/ Be diaphragms on top of a stock JBL 4648A cabinet (ie: 2 x 2226 drivers)
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post #20 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 11:26 AM
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Hey Carl, love the pic.

I've got some ideas, however how would you subjectively characterize the "better"?

Thanks

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post #21 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 01:14 PM
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" ... how would you subjectively characterize the "better"?"

The Be diaphragms have a clarity and lack of coloration that both titanium and aluminum diaphragms have. You are not aware of what I describe as 'coloration' until you experience a Be diaphragm swapped into a body of a horn/CD that you have logged many hours listening too as reference that previously was loaded with either titanium or aluminum.

When considering 2 inch exit drivers, the Radian 950 CD body loaded with a Be diaphragm is probably the best that I've heard.

I am using my BMS coaxial CDs bolted to a pair of JBL 2360 horns sitting on top of JBL 4550 cabinets loaded with 2226 drivers as my shop system. They kick! Big fun 'old school' sound.

'JBL 4675'

BMS coaxial CDs are popular upgrades in film mixdown studios around Hollywood that have aging JBL 4675 systems.
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post #22 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 01:29 PM
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Man Carl, you're making me want to grab one of the JBL or Radian Be units to test in the seos24 against my BMS4594 builds
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post #23 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Man Carl, you're making me want to grab one of the JBL or Radian Be units to test in the seos24 against my BMS4594 builds

You should! I guarantee that you won't be looking back!!
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post #24 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

You should! I guarantee that you won't be looking back!!
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Yeah, only look back at the $$ spent on the BMS drivers already...I'm giving the 4594s' a shot for now. How low do you cross your CD?? The Radian 951 claims it can do 500hz, I just wonder if that's optimal
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post #25 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 02:27 PM
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I am crossing both my BMS coaxials (bolted to JBL 2360 horns) and JBL 2446/ Be combo (IWATA 300s) at 650Hz 18dB per octave. The JBL 2226 drivers that I am using in both cases start getting 'Squirrel-ly' around 800Hz. Maybe you can borrow a pair of Be CDs to evaluate. Of course if you do that, you would plant the seed and soon would be swapping all those expensive CDs for even more expensive CDs!!

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post #26 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 03:57 PM
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"The JBL 2226 drivers that I am using in both cases start getting 'Squirrel-ly' around 800Hz."

the drivers themselves should be fine in that range. the cancellation is from on-axis measurement too close to the speaker for the wave fronts to combine properly.

your iwats in the corner look awesome!

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #27 of 56 Old 09-29-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

So you feel that the BMS 4590 coax performs better, & has better SQ than a JBL 2446? It would seem that the coax 4590 would have some advantages because of the fact that the 4590 has a mid, & a tweeter, whereas the JBL has one driver covering the frequencies that the 4590 can split into 2 drivers.
Have you looked at the JBL datasheet? It shows the 2446 rolling off at 7k or so, and if you have a look at the CSDs, the stuff in the top octave and a half is mainly resonant rubbish. It's a 4" diaphragm How many 4" tweeters do you see of any material (except crap full range drivers)? I have several 2446 and 2445 and have used them with the original and Radian phrams. I preferred the Radians for home use.
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But I would expect the JBL to be a strong contender due to it having the Be diaphragm.
I'm not. At the time I was doing a lot of horn design and construction I also had a loaner pair of TH4001 that I compared to the 4590. I could of purchased the TADs but I was unimpressed by their performance. As the TADs are a development of the 2446, I don't hold out much hope for them either even with the Be.
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post #28 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 01:38 AM
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just to expand a bit on what I posted in #26.






Listen. It's All Good.
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post #29 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 02:38 AM
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LTD is that where the .5 JBL scheme comes into play for avoiding this cancellation?

And thanks to you and Chop I am looking at using the Radian 951 for my CD on a possible SEOS 24. So all this is good to hear.
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post #30 of 56 Old 09-30-2013, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post


And thanks to you and Chop I am looking at using the Radian 951 for my CD on a possible SEOS 24. So all this is good to hear.

Yesssssss...that didn't take long, dual 8s, to dual 10s and seos18, to quads and seos24 in 24hrs biggrin.gif
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