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post #61 of 83 Old 10-21-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I have been playing around with that. That was an early pic, walls are painted now and speakers are toed-in more. I absolutey love them.
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post #62 of 83 Old 10-21-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarki View Post

Thanks. I have been playing around with that. That was an early pic, walls are painted now and speakers are toed-in more. I absolutey love them.

It honestly took me a bit to get used to the wide sweet spot. I had trained myself to go directly for the center seat on my couch. I can sit just about anywhere in line with the couch and have the same experience. It was a mental exercise for me to change a habit even after realizing the habit was no longer necessary. smile.gif
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post #63 of 83 Old 10-21-2013, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I usually move around my theater. I have two rows of four seats. I have "my spot" but depending on what we watch or who's over, I move all over the place. No matter where I sit, they sound amazing.
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post #64 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 02:38 PM
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Just a little question : what are the S.Q differences with speakers like in this thread compared to more traditional speakers ??
Thanks .
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post #65 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

Just a little question : what are the S.Q differences with speakers like in this thread compared to more traditional speakers ??
Thanks .

I think, in my room, they are more dynamic than anything else I've owned. I've had Jamo c80's, Paradigm Studio 100 mad Golden Ear SS50's. I like the Fusion 10 Pure the best. I don't fell like I'm missing any clarity compared to the ribbon tweeter in the GE speakers. I don't find the fusions bright at all. I love the sound. I find myself turning the volume up louder than ever and they still sound extremely clear, no distortion. They do sound a little different than a dome tweeter to me, but it's been a few years since I've had domes in my room, but nothing major, I'm no audiophile.
Hope this helps. I can try to answer more question, if you have any.
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post #66 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 05:19 PM
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From a technical perspective, the two big differences are gonna be sensitivity and directivity. These are an honest 98db/2.83V/m. And a nominal 8ohms. Very very easy on an amp. Even a cheap AVR. Directivity will make for a different "sound" than a lot of dome and ribbon speakers. Less sound is going to splash off the walls. So you'll save some money on room treatment, and get a more anechoic sound. Like you're listening right off the disc without the room getting in the way.
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post #67 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the explanation Tux. You designed some great speakers. I love them more every day. I have a hard time putting my impressions into words. But you are correct, directivity does make a difference. I have no treatments in my room, I have the fusions toed in more than any other speaker I've had, the sound is amazing. They are great speakers if you're around the Chicago area I'd demo them for you. One thing I did notice is how good the speakers sound with a good recording/soundtrack. They sound natural and can play loud. Extremely hard to beat for the price and effort to build them.
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post #68 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 06:32 PM
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OK and How about things like Imaging , Wide and Deep Soundstage ect .. The things we normally hear about conventional Hi End speakers .
And why not many commercial versions in HiFi stores ?

Thanks Guys!
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post #69 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

OK and How about things like Imaging , Wide and Deep Soundstage ect .. The things we normally hear about conventional Hi End speakers .
And why not many commercial versions in HiFi stores ?

Thanks Guys!

Ok, I think the soundstage is huge and great imaging. You have to play around a bit with the toe in, but the large soundstage is the first thing I noticed, my wife did too and she really doesn't notice things like that. I find myself paying more attention to the sound vs the movie. Waiting to hear something from the left or right speaker. In my room, the soundstage is huge.
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post #70 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 06:56 PM
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"I think, in my room, they are more dynamic than anything else I've owned. I've had Jamo c80's, Paradigm Studio 100 mad Golden Ear SS50's. I like the Fusion 10 Pure the best. I don't fell like I'm missing any clarity compared to the ribbon tweeter in the GE speakers. I don't find the fusions bright at all. I love the sound. I find myself turning the volume up louder than ever and they still sound extremely clear, no distortion. They do sound a little different than a dome tweeter to me, but it's been a few years since I've had domes in my room, but nothing major, I'm no audiophile.
Hope this helps. I can try to answer more question, if you have any."

I definitely second the increase in dynamics. I noticed a huge difference after hearing my build (same kit), some sounds like gunshots can make me jump a little, where before with my dome speakers those dynamics would just sound irritating/grating, must have been due to distortion. I have not noticed one bit of distortion from these, and I know it can get better! My room however, needs a bit of love in the treatment department. Also agree that they are not too bright, and I am quite sensitive to high freq. I was watching a couple episodes of Dexter last night, during the opener where he is shaving it seemed like I was hearing each hair getting cut, guess I would use the word "crisp". Anyway, I concur with Marki, the speakers are great biggrin.gif
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post #71 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 07:20 PM
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Wow sounds great guys, thanks for answering !
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post #72 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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No problem. You definitely can't go wrong with these speakers.
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post #73 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with cogeng, the dynamics are incredible. My son who's 3 1/2 keeps asking me, did that scare you, when we watch Cars, Rise of the Guardians etc.... Just finished Iron Man 3, my sister was over and after the movie she said, ok what did you change now, I don't remember it sounding like this. She only comes over for 2-3 movies a year and wanted to know what I changed. She was amazed that I built the speakers and couldn't believe how good they sounded. I wish I could take the credit. Thanks Tux!!
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post #74 of 83 Old 10-26-2013, 10:31 PM
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I have Statement Monitors which are well regarded speakers but was curious of the differences in sound !

Why are'nt there more people using Waveguide speakers for Stereo listening also ?


I once heard a Klipsh High End HT system that was proffesionally calibrated , and to be honest after a few minutes at high volume i could'nt wait to get out of the room, it was soooo bright , very aggresive sounding and unpleasant !

If there is one thing I hate, IT is a bright sounding system !

That's why am asking about the SQ of the speakers in this thread.
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post #75 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

I have Statement Monitors which are well regarded speakers but was curious of the differences in sound !

Why are'nt there more people using Waveguide speakers for Stereo listening also ?


I once heard a Klipsh High End HT system that was proffesionally calibrated , and to be honest after a few minutes at high volume i could'nt wait to get out of the room, it was soooo bright , very aggresive sounding and unpleasant !

If there is one thing I hate, IT is a bright sounding system !

That's why am asking about the SQ of the speakers in this thread.

My brother-in-law has a pair of older Klipsch, can't remember which model, and they sound bright to me too. Could be his room too. I don't find the Fusions bright at all.
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post #76 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

I have Statement Monitors which are well regarded speakers but was curious of the differences in sound !

Why are'nt there more people using Waveguide speakers for Stereo listening also ?


I once heard a Klipsh High End HT system that was proffesionally calibrated , and to be honest after a few minutes at high volume i could'nt wait to get out of the room, it was soooo bright , very aggresive sounding and unpleasant !

If there is one thing I hate, IT is a bright sounding system !

That's why am asking about the SQ of the speakers in this thread.

Depending on how big your listening area is, and also at what volume you listen to the movies/music, the Statement Monitors differ in that they do not have the dynamics, or spl capabilities of the Seos based speakers. The Statements will be more revealing, more clarity, and most likely have a better mid-range, as well as more accuracy, at least in my opinion as I have heard both. The Seos win if you have a large room and you like to listen at reference or an otherwise high spl. The Seos can fill a room and give you that real cinema experience. I prefer the Statements as long as the room isn't too big, they won't fill a large room with high spl, nor will they give you the really good dynamics, but to me, they sound better.

It's not that one is inherently better than the other, it depends on you requirements and the application, as well as your preference. We all perceive things differently, which makes sound quality very individual. I say that if you have the coin, build the Seos and do an a/b comparison. You should be able to sell the one that you like the least, no problem!
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post #77 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 06:31 AM
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One reason you don't see large waveguides commercially is stigma. People have learned to not like them. Compression drivers and horns have a very rough native response and usually a down sloping top octave. In the past, they've been used in pro applications where the response wasn't smoothed out and SPL was the goal. This unfortunately has lead to many bad sounding speakers. In my experience Klipsch isn't much different. I haven't heard much of the old stuff from Klipsch, which has been better, but their new stuff is very bright. They rate their speakers as having very high sensitivity and it must be from 3khz and up, cause that's what I hear. It's pretty bad.

Other reasons are size and complexity adds cost to the speaker, so its a harder sell.

Another is people think large woofers are "slow" and bad at midrange.

Nothing wrong with the statements for what they are. And nothing wrong with the fusion pure for other SEOS kits for what they are. But as Marty said, it depends on your requirements. If you have the design chops, time, and money, a SEOS based speaker that can whoop the statements could probably be arranged wink.gif 3 way using hi end parts with careful XO design. But I've never heard the statements either. Sometimes everything just comes together.
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post #78 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 07:22 AM
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Tux, what about large horns other than waveguides? For instance, DIY Sound Group has a number of decently sized JMLC or tractrix horns. I had been considering a 3 way using a 15" woofer, a tractrix 200 mid, and a JMLC 400 tweet. I found a source (http://lenardaudio.com/education/07_horns.html, halfway down) saying that horns are only effective for about three octaves before needing to transition to a differently-sized horn, but I don't know how true that is or if it affects waveguides like the SEOS the same way.

edit: for two channel audio, not for movies.
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post #79 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 07:40 AM
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Thanks again Guys , very good explanations !!
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post #80 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

One reason you don't see large waveguides commercially is stigma. People have learned to not like them. Compression drivers and horns have a very rough native response and usually a down sloping top octave. In the past, they've been used in pro applications where the response wasn't smoothed out and SPL was the goal. This unfortunately has lead to many bad sounding speakers. In my experience Klipsch isn't much different. I haven't heard much of the old stuff from Klipsch, which has been better, but their new stuff is very bright. They rate their speakers as having very high sensitivity and it must be from 3khz and up, cause that's what I hear. It's pretty bad.

Other reasons are size and complexity adds cost to the speaker, so its a harder sell.

Another is people think large woofers are "slow" and bad at midrange.

Nothing wrong with the statements for what they are. And nothing wrong with the fusion pure for other SEOS kits for what they are. But as Marty said, it depends on your requirements. If you have the design chops, time, and money, a SEOS based speaker that can whoop the statements could probably be arranged wink.gif 3 way using hi end parts with careful XO design. But I've never heard the statements either. Sometimes everything just comes together.


Great points, stigma is right.

Many of those individuals don't realize is when pros need accurate, large scale dynamic playback, for mastering, mains mixing, they incorporate waveguides/horns, 15" two ways, etc. There are dome HF exceptions from ATC, Quested, etc, but they come with inherent limitations.

There are poorly designed horns, a lot of them. Similarly, there's poorly designed dome/cone speakers too. But once one experiences a properly executed design of any type, in an nice acoustic environment, with adequate dynamic capability, it doesn't matter how it's approached, the end result justifies the means. Engineers don't experience harshness or horn honk in two-way Kinoshitas, or JBLs, or multi-way monsters like Westlakes, or Genelecs, allow someone to experience those and ask them about horns/waveguides.



Here's the Kinoshitas "slow" large woofers, and harsh honky HF wink.gif



Sure, an extreme example, point being a bad speaker is a bad speaker, regardless of the overall design approach. Many enthusiast mistakenly associate design features with certain sonic attributes.
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post #81 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 10:45 AM
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Tux ,
Do you think your 1099 speaker combines the best of the statements speaker ( I know.you.haven't heard it but I'm sure you have heard some good non waveguide speakers ) with spl and dynamics of seos ? rolleyes.gif
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post #82 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 12:12 PM
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Well, one thing I think the statement does well (I can only talk on paper about the two designs) is vertical directivity. Being a WMTMW with a ribbon the statement keeps the sound off the floor and ceiling. And it does this very well. The tux10-99 is WTMW and does control the floor and ceiling quite well, but likely not as well as the statement. Close though. The statements also use a ribbon which often have very low distortion, very clean impulse response, extension into the ultra top octave where we can't hear, and pimp factor. I consider those low on the list of important things, but they deserve to be stated. One last important difference is bass. They can play full range (excluding the really low stuff). The tux10-99 isn't much good below about 80hz and useless below 55-60hz.

Where the tux10-99 is better is shear SPL, and horizontal directivity. IMO, I'd take the tux10-99 over the statement because I use subs even for music, I consider the qualities of a ribbon non-essential, and that leaves the better vertical control. Ill take the dynamics and horizontal directivity over the vertical advantage. But really, there's many situations where the statement owner is totally justified. For starters, if you don't use subs and listen quietly, the statements are probably a better bet.
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post #83 of 83 Old 10-27-2013, 12:31 PM
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I use subs for music too and my priority is for loud movies so waveguide it is.
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