GJALLARHORN Re-Fold ?!?! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 153 Old 09-29-2013, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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We still need a name for this beast. I will let you have the honor. smile.gif

If I do get the opportunity to get started, I will start a build thread and definitely build two.
My plan would be to lay them end to end with mouths at the far ends for a 144" of horned woofage. cool.gif

I would definitely use the UXL to keep the cost down for a pair. If I can sell my DTS-10 I would only have a couple hundred invested. smile.gif

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post #92 of 153 Old 09-29-2013, 04:52 PM
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...and it shall be called LOWARHORN!

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post #93 of 153 Old 09-29-2013, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool!cool.gif I like it!

LOWARHORN it is!

Let the games begin!

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post #94 of 153 Old 09-29-2013, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cogeng182 View Post

jpmst3, you are going to build this correct? Will be awesome for sure smile.gif

Yes, I am hoping to get started soon. I would have liked to sell my DTS-10 prior to building, but I am not sure I can wait that long.
I guess I had better get to ordering drivers or at least one to get started.

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post #95 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 10:07 AM
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To LTDO2 and all other dreamers and hardworking co-conspirators . . .
First , thanks for the beautiful process, like many of us have seen with CHEMISTRY (RIP Walt)
your post (80) intrigues me, gives me THE ITCH, but raised some questions for a better visualization of a finished beast
The case is 3/4" but are the internals pieces 1/2"?
Any suggestion for or limits on corner bracing lengths (I know don't be stupid about it ) and are they full width (it would seem so)
If the whole thing is going to be 3/4" it would weigh a bit but then KREG screws (and PL) would hurry the process
What is the particular or best ULX driver recommendation?
And are there any amp recommendations ? Inukes with DSP or minidsp separatetes, Crown ? . . .
With some "proper" EQ and "placement " (vertical?)say in 3.000 ft3 what could I expect or achieve in terms of SPL and extension. I've seen the charts. OH YRAH!
My onkyo 818 has only a sub xo of 80. Multi XT32 has proven extremely "adequate" in dialing in my 2 30" BF THTLP's..
COD is awesome in 7.2. .
I have a 0 WAF and could budget about $1,000 for this project.

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post #96 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 10:30 AM
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"To LTDO2 and all other dreamers and hardworking co-conspirators . . .
First , thanks for the beautiful process..."

np. it was a fun challenge.

"...your post (80) intrigues me, gives me THE ITCH..."

that's what it is all about!

"The case is 3/4" but are the internals pieces 1/2"?"

3/4" is shown in the mockup and that is what I would suggest, but 1/2" or 5/8" would probably be fine so long as good bracing is used.

"Any suggestion for or limits on corner bracing lengths (I know don't be stupid about it )"

if you draw a centerline through horn and hit the wall, have the brace come to a little past that point or thereabout. the key point is not to choke off the flow around the corner. they don't have to be there, but will help brace the cabinet and help reduce resonances.

"...and are they full width (it would seem so)"

yes.

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post #97 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 10:35 AM
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"If the whole thing is going to be 3/4" it would weigh a bit but then KREG screws (and PL) would hurry the process"

:-)

"What is the particular or best ULX driver recommendation?"

there is only one UXL. http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html

"And are there any amp recommendations ? Inukes with DSP or minidsp separatetes, Crown ? . . ."

an inuke 3000dsp would probably do the trick, but i'd have to check on that...

"With some "proper" EQ and "placement " (vertical?)say in 3.000 ft3 what could I expect or achieve in terms of SPL and extension. I've seen the charts. OH YRAH!"

tough to say. the low corner is about 17hz or so and a high pass filter will screen out much of anything below that, so i'd guess 14-15hz will be about the bottom end?

"I have a 0 WAF and could budget about $1,000 for this project."

seems like that's about right on.

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post #98 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 10:42 AM
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what makes the amp suggestion a little tricky is that the driver is rated for 1200 watts, but it isn't clear under what conditions that applies. the inuke 3000dsp will put about 2200 or so into 4 ohms in bridged mode. with 2200 watts the driver will be getting up around its excursion limit, so that power level is fine from an excursion perspective (with the protective high pass of course.)

i'm not sure what kind of power folks are putting on the uxl. nate probably could tell you.

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post #99 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post

To LTDO2 and all other dreamers and hardworking co-conspirators . . .

If the whole thing is going to be 3/4" it would weigh a bit but then KREG screws (and PL) would hurry the process
What is the particular or best ULX driver recommendation?
And are there any amp recommendations ? Inukes with DSP or minidsp separatetes, Crown ? . . .
With some "proper" EQ and "placement " (vertical?)say in 3.000 ft3 what could I expect or achieve in terms of SPL and extension. I've seen the charts. OH YRAH!
My onkyo 818 has only a sub xo of 80. Multi XT32 has proven extremely "adequate" in dialing in my 2 30" BF THTLP's..

It is difficult to determine what kind of SPL you would get as there are a few variables in play.
However, that is not a huge room (provided it is not open to other areas) and the LOWARHORN would be quite potent for that space.

An 80Hz corssover would work, but I will like cross things a little lower, say 60 Hz.

It is impossible to know what the in-room response and how much EQ will be required. Any amp with decent power will work.
If you go with the UXL-18 at $530 and allow about ~$200-400 for amplification, ~$100 for miniDSP and cabling, and then $??? for wood (depending on if you go with junk 3/4" sheathing or baltic birch or oak ply, etc) you could potentially do it all for $1000.

If you have the space and are going to all the trouble, I would build two since the amplification and EQ needs will potentially be already met.
The UXL is rated at 1200w RMS so you won't need a multi-killowatt amp for each. A Behringer iNuke or EP variant would do very well on the cheap.

And yes, the Kreg system would definitely make the construction process go more smoothly and quickly, highly recommend!


EDIT: I see LTD also recommended the iNuke. Great bang for the buck there.

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post #100 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 12:52 PM
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sorry, i missed a question in all that.

here is the rough hornresp response in 2pi space (aka in a field with no room gain).

that is at 1 watt.

for each X10 times power, you get +10db. roughly.

so with 1000 watts, add +30db to the numbers, or about 124db! at 20hz! before room gain.

'smushed' response of low profile horn (dark gray):

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post #101 of 153 Old 10-01-2013, 12:55 PM
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just for comparison...

it would take about SIX of the same UXL drivers, in 4 cubic foot sealed enclosures each, driven by a massive 6,000 watts of total power to hit 123db at 20hz under the same conditions.

:-)

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post #102 of 153 Old 10-02-2013, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

sorry, i missed a question in all that.

here is the rough hornresp response in 2pi space (aka in a field with no room gain).

that is at 1 watt.

for each X10 times power, you get +10db. roughly.

so with 1000 watts, add +30db to the numbers, or about 124db! at 20hz! before room gain.

'smushed' response of low profile horn (dark gray):

Outstanding!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

just for comparison...

it would take about SIX of the same UXL drivers, in 4 cubic foot sealed enclosures each, driven by a massive 6,000 watts of total power to hit 123db at 20hz under the same conditions.

:-)

Absoutely remarkable perspective.

 

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post #103 of 153 Old 10-02-2013, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Exactly, you will still need to take mucho space when you add multiples of sealed drivers. You cannot beat the efficiency of a horn.
Build a couple and season with an affordable amp and you have the recipe for awesome woofage!

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post #104 of 153 Old 10-03-2013, 04:27 PM
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Thank you for the swift answers in the first round and . . .
We're Back!
AS I am slightly over enthused, I looked at the sketch and thought" Suppose the width internally was 23 7/8ths.. How much difference could it make? ( Could I save a nickel?)
But after just thinking of making lists of ideas and things ( cutsheet, sketchup, labeling parts, buying parts,) for procedural flow, it occurred to me that this (legacy)(?) project is the result a lot of great thinking, expertise , experience and community,
priceless
One thing this is not about and never mentioned, is ECONOMY. Its a build not as big and bad as some, but HOLY WOOFAGE, BATMAN . . .
(This site is full of BATMAN types: smart, creative and persistent, willing to fail, etc. like Edison)
So I want to create a document that can make me (or almost anyone) feel things are pretty well idiot-proofed so that proceeding is expertly and clearly detailed, like a BF plan. (my only DIY experience: a good one, its that ITCH thing)
I've only done 3 builds, a mere neophyte. . .
An estimate for building 2 is easily in the $2200-2500 range depending on primarily final finish,. Lets not cheap out on necessary quality.
One shopping list:: 2 UXL MAch 5 18"'s $1,100
This is a question: Which will get the most bang for the buck and or the best long term performance, flexibility, An Inuke4000DSP ($500)
OR a combo of a Beryy EXP4000 and a Minidsp 2x4 way advanced, probably about $550 total
Excuse my naiveté, but since the UXL is rated at 1200 watts, either of these amps is "supposed" to be able to mange that or more at 4 ohms., I just going by the numbers, I have absolutely no other frame of reference. about being "technical"
So far that total is $1700 or so, if you try to stay realistic.
I found really good deal on 6 prong 1/4x20 T-nuts, 7/16's shank, ONLY $223 for a box of 2,000. (needs more research)(ya think?)
Loew's has 3/4 ply, sanded fir for about $40/sheet. Once I work out actual sizes, the answer is keep buying until its all cut . . ., its not about economy but working smart is preferred
Of course BB is to also be considered
How about a section WRT: BREAK-IN: Rum the speaker at __?__volts for __?__ hours using a __?__tone.
I might think that's enough for now so its back to the drawing board.
This stuff is GREAT!

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post #105 of 153 Old 10-03-2013, 04:32 PM
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"AS I am slightly over enthused, I looked at the sketch and thought" Suppose the width internally was 23 7/8ths.. How much difference could it make? ( Could I save a nickel?)"

oh, it's not THAT precise. meant to use a sheet of ply ripped down the middle so yeah, not exactly 24" that's fine actually...that's the idea!

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post #106 of 153 Old 10-03-2013, 04:38 PM
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watch your impedance matching when selecting an amp.

the inuke 3000 will do about 1100 watts per channel at 2 ohms per side.

the inuke 6000 will do about 2200 watts per channel at 4 ohms per side, which is a little high, but can be limited with the dsp.

for the little extra money relative to the total cost of a dual lowarhorn project, i'd suggest the 6000dsp and just don't run it at max.

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post #107 of 153 Old 10-03-2013, 04:46 PM
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And the DSP aspect recommended over a minidsp as I mentioned.
$500 is in the ball park
and the beast grows on . . .

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post #108 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I would skip the DSP on the amp and get the miniDSP. You are going to be able to do a lot more with the miniDSP at lower freqs.

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post #109 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 07:56 AM
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"I would skip the DSP on the amp and get the miniDSP. You are going to be able to do a lot more with the miniDSP at lower freqs."

?

what kind of capabilities are you thinking are lacking in the inuke dsp?

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post #110 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I would skip the DSP on the amp and get the miniDSP. You are going to be able to do a lot more with the miniDSP at lower freqs."

?

what kind of capabilities are you thinking are lacking in the inuke dsp?

If I recall, I don't believe you can set filters below 20Hz on the built-in Berhringer DSP, where the mini has options well below that.

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post #111 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 08:17 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461489/how-to-extend-the-high-pass-filter-below-20hz-in-dcx2496

(works the same for the inuke software)

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post #112 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

If I recall, I don't believe you can set filters below 20Hz on the built-in Berhringer DSP, where the mini has options well below that.

+1

Also, the iNuke6000 was benched at 1,800watts for bass duty. Can't locate the source at this moment.

 

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post #113 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461489/how-to-extend-the-high-pass-filter-below-20hz-in-dcx2496

(works the same for the inuke software)

Exactly, but the miniDSP does it easier ...(just my opinion and I use the DCX) And if you need a HPF below 20Hz you are out of luck with the built-in software.
Plus, you can use any amp with the miniDSP if you want to grow your system with other non-DSP enabled gear.

Again, just my $.02. I see the value in both solutions, but I hate having to have a work around for something that should be there.

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post #114 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 08:35 AM
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http://forum.speakerplans.com/behringer-inuke-nu6000-vs-kam-kxd7200-bench-tested_topic69202.html

the 1800 number was per channel into resistive load.

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post #115 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

http://forum.speakerplans.com/behringer-inuke-nu6000-vs-kam-kxd7200-bench-tested_topic69202.html

the 1800 number was per channel into resistive load.

Thanks for that link. Interesting stuff.

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post #116 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 10:47 AM
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yeah, the difference between resistive loads and actual speaker loads with their frequency varying impedance is really confusing the first few times through. i was quite confused by it all for some time...but folks helped me through it. :-)

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post #117 of 153 Old 10-04-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

yeah, the difference between resistive loads and actual speaker loads with their frequency varying impedance is really confusing the first few times through. i was quite confused by it all for some time...but folks helped me through it. :-)

You and me both, I sometimes forget all I have learned here over the past 8 years. smile.gif

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post #118 of 153 Old 10-06-2013, 12:23 PM
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Some pertinent break-in info from isl for interested builders while you contemplate a procedure



"What you can do is exercise the suspension using a 15-18Hz sine wave
signal - apply about 60-100 watts. Let it run overnight and by morning
you should be ready to go.

Or, you can make the request and we can do it here."

Thanks,
Mark


EDit; that's iST if anybody noticed


my current effort is to make a full sized mockup of the original final layout from LTD02.
This should yield interior baffle/piece lengths and angles, etc.

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Klipsch F3 FL/R, G-28 C, RB 51's, FW's , RS3II SBL/R, RC3II, SL/R, SLX-FH's
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post #119 of 153 Old 10-09-2013, 07:54 AM
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If anyone is actively building this awesome project, would it be possible to share a cut sheet by chance? Also, are there pros and cons of MDF vs. BB ply for this kind of sub? I'm imagining the wood costs will end up pretty high.

Also, do you think you could achieve the necessary precision and accuracy with an old-ish table saw? I'd love to give it a go, but my tools are pretty limited.
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post #120 of 153 Old 10-09-2013, 08:08 AM
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it was designed to be "cut sheet" friendly for standard plywood. the internal depth is ~24" or whatever your ply ends up being ripped down the middle.

the precise panel lengths depend on how you choose to butt the panels up to each other.

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